Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #46

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this may be way off the track and completely incorrect - its my understanding from the posts I have read here. So please don't flame if you disagree - its not meant to be antagonistic.

But here we have the ultimate craziness - both of the parties may have seen the counseling documents from RA through discovery but because of the law these documents and the information in the doco can't be used in court. What? Does that seem strange. I am just gobsmacked! Its like the Xfiles -The truth is out there - but nobody can access it?
 
this may be way off the track and completely incorrect - its my understanding from the posts I have read here. So please don't flame if you disagree - its not meant to be antagonistic.

But here we have the ultimate craziness - both of the parties may have seen the counseling documents from RA through discovery but because of the law these documents and the information in the doco can't be used in court. What? Does that seem strange. I am just gobsmacked! Its like the Xfiles -The truth is out there - but nobody can access it?

:clap: TOTALLY AGREE! :clap:
 
I can't say why the Family Court Act specifically prohibits evidence from counselling sessions in any court other than the obvious reason that the parties can attempt counselling without fear of it being later used in court proceedings. On the face of the wording it appears to prohibit use in criminal proceedings as they are in a court. That is what the judge will have to decide.
I can't really add any more to the debate about it, we will have to wait and see what happens.
 
I can't say why the Family Court Act specifically prohibits evidence from counselling sessions in any court other than the obvious reason that the parties can attempt counselling without fear of it being later used in court proceedings. On the face of the wording it appears to prohibit use in criminal proceedings as they are in a court. That is what the judge will have to decide.
I can't really add any more to the debate about it, we will have to wait and see what happens.

Alioop that is my understanding, the Family Court Act provided for confidentiality of marital counselling on the basis that the partners can enter confidential counselling without content being used in subsequent legal proceedings i.e. so that one partner cannot use content against the other partner in property or custody settlements etc. or alternatively, so that one partner cannot use the Counsellor as a witness against the other partner in subsequent Court proceedings. The Counsellor and the counselling content is confidential from all subsequent Court proceedings to do with custody or property settlements. BUT in the case of murder of one partner allegedly by the other partner IMHO this purpose expires and it becomes a Criminal matter accountable by Law as any other Criminal matter.
 
Alioop that is my understanding, the Family Court Act provided for confidentiality of marital counselling on the basis that the partners can enter confidential counselling without content being used in subsequent legal proceedings i.e. so that one partner cannot use content against the other partner in property or custody settlements etc. or alternatively, so that one partner cannot use the Counsellor as a witness against the other partner in subsequent Court proceedings. The Counsellor and the counselling content is confidential from all subsequent Court proceedings to do with custody or property settlements. BUT in the case of murder of one partner allegedly by the other partner IMHO this purpose expires and it becomes a Criminal matter accountable by Law as any other Criminal matter.

Well put Fuskier. We will see if the judge decides along the same lines!
 
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5 September, 2013 Leanne Mezrani

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End quote.

The mind boggles for the cost and time of lawyers debating this new point.

Moo
 
Alioop that is my understanding, the Family Court Act provided for confidentiality of marital counselling on the basis that the partners can enter confidential counselling without content being used in subsequent legal proceedings i.e. so that one partner cannot use content against the other partner in property or custody settlements etc. or alternatively, so that one partner cannot use the Counsellor as a witness against the other partner in subsequent Court proceedings. The Counsellor and the counselling content is confidential from all subsequent Court proceedings to do with custody or property settlements. BUT in the case of murder of one partner allegedly by the other partner IMHO this purpose expires and it becomes a Criminal matter accountable by Law as any other Criminal matter.

Jumping off your post Fuskier, I noticed 1. Custody 2. Property arrangements.

The property was sold and maybe it is custody at issue?

Moo
 
just my 2 cents on the admissibility issue FWIW - I think the provision will be read down/interpreted by the Court to mean "court proceedings" re: the family law/custody/property settlement etc. I would imagine that given there is genuine ambiguity here, the explanatory memorandum to the Act and/or Hansard records of the Second Reading could be searched to ascertain the INTENTION of the specific provision.
 
Could it be that actual recordings with counsellor is Spousal Privilege as it will be the statements of ABC as such. If it is simply Counsellor relaying what she was told it could be hearsay. The law is an *advertiser censored* as we know.

Recently the High Court ruled no more spousal privilege in common law. http://www.mondaq.com/australia/x/1...ge+no+longer+exists+implications+for+business

That's a good point. Some psychologists/counsellors do keep recordings (video and/or audio), but many don't. I know the only times I did was for supervision. Client written records also vary - an important point too is that counsellor interpretation in notes is also a bit risky i.e.

Client A says "I'm having a bad day"
Counsellor (if documenting) should say "he/she stated they were having a bad day" and maybe add a description of body language/behaviour like "he/she smiled which contradicted/was incongruent with this statement"

If the counsellor INTERPRETED the same client statement, they might put "he/she said they had a bad day, and smiled which suggested he/she was lying"

The second statement opens up a can of worms for the counsellor, as there is interpretation included in the records, especially if subpoenaed. At least if the counsellor only includes factual, objective observations, it removes a lot of the subjectiveness.
 
I've noticed that if a crime involves a child then the perpetrators name is suppressed so the child isn't exposed. Maybe protecting the identity & safety of the children?
 
so not long before we find out if the info is going to be available for the court case.... there will definitely be a lot of discussion here! I wonder what morsels the media will entice us with!
 
I have checked the Hansard. It is politicians giving their thoughts on why the others should read the Act and have a thoughtful opinion.

This my research relating to inadmissibility. The formatting is odd. Not my fault.

Australian Government
Australian Law Reform Comission

22. Confidentiality and Admissibility
Admissibility of FDR and family counselling communications

22.85 Similar reasoning was
used by the majority of the Supreme Court of South Australia in R v Liddy
(No 2) to permit the admission of Family Law Act counselling records
in criminal proceedings. However, in a dissenting opinion, Wicks J
expressed the view that ‘any court (whether exercising federal jurisdiction or not)’ should be interpreted more broadly:

Where non-federal jurisdiction, ie State jurisdiction, is concerned,
the words (whether exercising federal jurisdiction or not) clearly make the expression ‘court’ applicable to courts generally, including this court, the Supreme Court of South Australia.

22.90 Consistency in the
application of admissibility rules for FDR and family counselling communications across jurisdictions is important for both fairness and certainty. The Commissions consider that ss 10E and 10J should be amended to make it clear that the application of these provisions extends to state and territory courts when they are not exercising family law jurisdiction.

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications...ssibility-fdr-and-family-counselling-communic

The possibility that parties will be less open, or will conceal information about family violence in FDR and family counselling because disclosures may be used as evidence, is of particular concern. This would compromise the potential for safe and appropriate outcomes
to be secured through FDR and family counselling; consequently victims and
potential victims of family violence may be exposed to greater risk.

22.83 Sections 10E(1)
and 10J(1) provide that FDR and family counselling communications are not admissible:

in any court (whether or not exercising federal jurisdiction); or

in any proceedings before a person authorised to hear evidence
(whether authorised by a Commonwealth, state or territory law, or by consent of
the parties).

22.84 In Anglicare (WA) v
Department of Family and Children’s Services, the Supreme Court of Western
Australia held that the prohibition on admissibility ‘in any court (whether or
not exercising federal jurisdiction)’ set out in s 19N of the Family
Law Act—the predecessor to the current s 10E—was limited by the
definition of ‘court’ in s 4 of the Family Law Act to the court
exercising jurisdiction in the Family Law Act proceedings. Accordingly,
the inadmissibility provisions did not extend to proceedings in the Children’s
Court of Western Australia.[95]

22.85 Similar reasoning was
used by the majority of the Supreme Court of South Australia in R v Liddy
(No 2) to permit the admission of Family Law Act counselling records
in criminal proceedings. However, in a dissenting opinion, Wicks J
expressed the view that ‘any court (whether exercising federal jurisdiction or
not)’ should be interpreted more broadly:

Where non-federal jurisdiction, ie State jurisdiction, is concerned,
the words (whether exercising federal jurisdiction or not) clearly make the
expression ‘court’ applicable to courts generally, including this court, the Supreme Court of South Australia.

If the expression ‘court’ is used to have the widest possible
meaning and is not limited merely to courts exercising federal jurisdiction
relating to family law, the structure of sub-s (2) is logical. The
sub-section begins by prohibiting courts of every complexion and whether exercising federal or State jurisdiction, from admitting into evidence anything
said at a meeting or conference to which the sub-section applies. Par (b) then
proceeds to deal with tribunals, mediations and arbitrations where the bodies
concerned are authorised to hear evidence. In other words, sub-s (2)
embraces the entire field in Australia of bodies authorised to hear evidence,
be they courts or otherwise, from admitting into evidence anything said or any
admission made at a meeting or conference referred to in the sub-section. …

It seems to me that it would be illogical to limit the
operation of the section to a few courts which deal with family law and yet to
express par (b) in the widest possible terms specifically including
persons authorised by a law of the Commonwealth, or of a State or territory or
even by the consent of the parties, to hear evidence.[96]

Recommendation
22–4 Sections 10E and 10J of the Family Law Act 1975 (Cth),
which regulate the admissibility of family dispute resolution and family
counselling communications, should be amended to state expressly that the application
of these provisions extends to state and territory courts not exercising family
law jurisdiction.

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications...ssibility-fdr-and-family-counselling-communic

Department of the Senate

Submission: Family Law Legislation Amendment (Family Violence and Other Measures) Bill

Impact of expanded definition on admissibility provisions in the Family Law Act

1.1 The Australian Law Reform Commission (ALRC) welcomes the opportunity to make this submission to the Australian Government Attorney-General’s Department on the Exposure Draft Family Law Amendment (Family Violence) Bill 2010 (the Exposure Draft legislation) and congratulates the Government for its commitment to improving legal responses for victims of family violence.

1.23 In light of this, the ALRC urges the Government to consider expressly the implications of extending the definition of ‘abuse of a child’ to include exposure to violence, including for example, whether there is a need for a provision in the Family Law Act to make it clear that disclosures to FDR practitioners and family counsellors relating to children’s exposure to violence are not admissible.

https://senate.aph.gov.au/submissio....aspx?id=2a86000d-3fb8-43ec-9110-7b47f60b050a

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:legislation/billhome/R4562

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2011A00189/Download

Family Law Legislation Amendment (Family Violence and Other Measures) Act 2011
No. 189, 2011


http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2011A00189/e3b52244-8b25-410c-a957-756331bcf2a0

(2) Examples of behaviour that may constitute family violence include (but are not limited to):
(a) an assault; or
(b) a sexual assault or other sexually abusive behaviour; or
(c) stalking; or
(d) repeated derogatory taunts; or
(e) intentionally damaging or destroying property; or
(f) intentionally causing death or injury to an animal; or
(g) unreasonably denying the family member the financial autonomy that he or she would otherwise have had; or
(h) unreasonably withholding financial support needed to meet the reasonable living expenses of the family member, or his or her child, at a time when the family member is entirely or predominantly dependent on the person for financial support; or

(i) preventing the family member from making or keeping connections with his or her family, friends or culture; or
(j) unlawfully depriving the family member, or any member of the family member’s family, of his or her liberty
 
Ok long post but it discusses the difference between Family Court and Magistrates Court and the admissibility of family counselling sessions in a criminal court.
 
There is a new act that discusses the responsibility of family counsellors to report an act of DV including bankruptcy.

As a long standing rule, the counsellor does not have to report family violence as it may harm and have consequences for the victim.

Did the counsellor not understand the law, in so much as a confidential report could be submitted to various agencies?
 
This is just bizaare! Remember the Jennifer Ramsaran case? (here it is: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214167&page=8 ).

Well, read this article relating to the case - cue the Twilight Zone music! These cases just seem to mimic each other. The Ramsaran case relates to lawyer-client privilege, but definitely issues similar to the counsellor dilemma in GBC's case.

http://thedailystar.com/localnews/x1612843462/Jailed-Ramsaran-in-new-push-for-bail

Meanwhile, the Ramsaran defense team is asking Revoir to dismiss the indictment, contending the grand jury would have received “inappropriate and unlawful testimony” if a Norwich matrimonial lawyer, Diane M. DiStefano, was called to testify about the contact she had with Jennifer Ramsaran.

Ackerman argued that all communications between Jennifer Ramsaran and DiStefano are subject to attorney-client privilege, a status he said “unquestionably and absolutely survives Jennifer Ramsaran’s death.” Any information transmitted as the result of the attorney-client relationship “must remain confidential even after death,” he said.
 
just my 2 cents on the admissibility issue FWIW - I think the provision will be read down/interpreted by the Court to mean "court proceedings" re: the family law/custody/property settlement etc. I would imagine that given there is genuine ambiguity here, the explanatory memorandum to the Act and/or Hansard records of the Second Reading could be searched to ascertain the INTENTION of the specific provision.

Thanks and welcome
 
Ava Benny-Morrison (@avabmorrison)
12/09/13 2:37 PM

Barry O'Sullivan's senate nomination on hold until CMC completes its investigation into Bruce Flegg tapes which mention O'Sullivan

APN newsdesk
 
Sarah Elks (@sarahelks)
20/09/13 9:34 AM
Gerard Baden-Clay will be tried for his wife's murder from June 9 next year. Justice Peter Applegarth has just set the date.
 
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