Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Couldbe]

GBC went along with Allison to the Counsellor; Allison said that she didn't think that he would attend, but he did ....... why?:-

... Was it because he thought that Carmel would see that he was a fine upstanding citizen, and that would be reinforced to him ... when he knew he was a lying, cheating, broke Real Estate Agent who was unable to get any more people to lend him money for the business.

... He even told the Counsellor that he and Allison should be just moving forward (not dwelling on his 'past' affair details, even though he was telling TM he would be coming to her unconditionally quite soon).

... The Counsellor said that GBC said that he wanted the marriage to work. (He also told the Police Officer, when GBC was asked if Allison would perhaps have been leaving him .... that he 'hoped not'. I guess he wouldn't have wanted Allison to leave him, because there is no doubt, due to Insurance Policy and Superannuation inquiries just days before, she represented $$$$ to him.

... Lies, lies, lies but GBC stay focussed because the financial pressures weren't going away / Allison now had a Counsellor on side to try and talk about an affair that supposedly was in the past, but you were still enjoying the affair and talking of a commitment to TM / you were to report back to the Counsellor in a week on your marriage / Allison looked like she was becoming stronger, and may now be able to manage her insecurities better / was feeling that the affair with TM wouldn't be so much fun.

... He needed to save face ...... divorcing Allison wouldn't help him, especially financially. He was already living his life in a devious way, so he had become adept at deviousness. He had tried demeaning her, but she now seemed to be getting on top of that ...... was he losing control over her?

A plan - if he could use the 15 minute affair talk from Allison to invoke anger in him, then he could blame her for what he had to do to her .... end her life and make good use of the forthcoming Insurance Policy money and Superannuation Fund money.
'The Counsellor was a party to it as well' ..... because the plan was hatched while she was talking him into agreeing to do the short talk during the hour taken to talk him into agreeing to the 15 minute affair talk.

He probably always knew that he would hide Allison's body under the Kholo Bridge ..... just wasn't sure when it would happen. When it did, he then had to swing into action.

 

[they'll get you]

Troopster maybe he had to go along and look like the ultimate caring husband who has focused on his wife and children only, could it be the last performance before Allison's murder. Was it a part of the plan just like smashing the car at the mall. Get another one on his side? See look how crazy she is.
Oh those bloody caterpillars!

 

[possumheart]

Respectfully snipped

A plan - if he could use the 15 minute affair talk from Allison to invoke anger in him, then he could blame her for what he had to do to her .... end her life and make good use of the forthcoming Insurance Policy money and Superannuation Fund money.
'The Counsellor was a party to it as well' ..... because the plan was hatched while she was talking him into agreeing to do the short talk during the hour taken to talk him into agreeing to the 15 minute affair talk.
He probably always knew that he would hide Allison's body under the Kholo Bridge ..... just wasn't sure when it would happen. When it did, he then had to swing into action.

You gave me goosebumps

 

[Trooper]

What did Toni think was going to happen to Allison>?? what does she think now? I recall an email between her and 'Bruce'... Toni had it worked out ,plenty of advice, as usual... nothing like the other womans constant advice, full of garbage, Gerard was to take turns week about living in the house ( she must have thought he owned it ) and the other week with her, but Allison didn't need to know that address, that was to be kept the biggest secret of all.. and not just from Alison, apparently.. Don't know what the Family court would think of that idea....secret from his girls, his parents , etc...that was to be just their own special news. she was going to have to work it out with her ex squeeze, somehow, for her twin boys,...

 

[Strangeworld]

On the face of it:
Counselling approach taken? :shutup:
Assessment of couple dynamics? :facepalm:
Assessment of safety issues: :facepalm:
Assigned homework? :notgood:
All IMHO.

Totally agree.

I am hoping that we aren't getting the full story of the sessions, because what we have heard is a bit concerning.

Couldbe's post just also got me thinking about another possibility about GBC attending counselling. If it wasn't part of planning Allison's murder, it could have been about control.

Even though he supposedly didn't care for Allison anymore, it would have driven him crazy knowing she was out there talking to someone about him, maybe putting him down or tarnishing his image. He may have felt like he wanted to have his say, maybe suss out what she is saying about him.

I also agree with Couldbe that he may have thought he could so easily convince Carmel that he was a good guy and save face.

 

[Fuskier]

Totally agree.

I am hoping that we aren't getting the full story of the sessions, because what we have heard is a bit concerning.

Couldbe's post just also got me thinking about another possibility about GBC attending counselling. If it wasn't part of planning Allison's murder, it could have been about control.

Even though he supposedly didn't care for Allison anymore, it would have driven him crazy knowing she was out there talking to someone about him, maybe putting him down or tarnishing his image. He may have felt like he wanted to have his say, maybe suss out what she is saying about him.

I also agree with Couldbe that he may have thought he could so easily convince Carmel that he was a good guy and save face.

BBM. All very important possibilities for the Court to consider IMHO.

 

[Trooper]

Prosecutor..................... Did you lie to your wife , Mr BC?? Mr BC Yes


............''........................Did you lie to your three girls?.....................Yes


...........''''.......................Did yu lie to Ms Mc Hugh>>?? Mr BC Yes

.............''.......................Did you lie to your business partners? Yes

............''.''......................Did you lie to your creditors>>??........ Yes

.......................................Did you lie to the police of Queensland>> yes

................''......................DId you lie to the P@C the Rotary the Scouts>> ? Yes'

Did you like to the doctors you consulted>>??...................................yes

DId you like to the Taxation Office??................................................Yes.

Did you lie to the Real Estate Institute??...........................................Yes

DId you like to the Operator at 000??...............................................Yes

Did you lie to the Search and Rescue team>>??..................................Yes

Did you lie to Alisons parents>>>??....................................................Yes

Did you lie to Mr Flegg???..................................................................Yes

Did you lie to brother>> your sister>> your parents>>?..........................(mumble)

Did you intend coming here today to lie to this court of the state of QLD?....( mumble)

 

[sosocurious]

Pretrial hearing is finished. Only Carmel Ritchie on today. She was a good witness. Softly spoken but very clear in her evidence. She spent most of second session on 16 april 2012 with gbc convincing him if he wanted to save his marriage he had to listen to Allisons pain for 10 to 15 mins every second day until next session. None was ever booked. He didnt want to talk about it as felt that was regressing over the past and he wanted to go forward. No non publicatication order so MSM will provide more details. There were no bombshells, Carmel said both of them said they wanted to work on their marriage. Most of the things Allison told her were as Allison had listed in her diary. Carmel said Allison told her she was over the moon that she had spent most of the hour session with g as the plan was half hour with him then half hour with both.

Carmel Richie spent most of the second session convincing GBC if he wanted to save his marriage he had to listen to Allison's pain for 10 to 15 minutes each 2nd night until the next session.
No next session was ever booked.

IMO there was never a 10 to 15 minute talk and GBC never had any intention of attending another session.

His take on Carmel's suggestion were explained in the interview with Sgt Jackson
Quote from interview

The counsellor on Monday suggested we set aside fifteen minutes a night to for Allison to vent and GRILL ME on you know (indistinct).

No mention of the counsellor suggesting that I listen so as my wife can vent the pain I have caused her with my past affair that by the way continues.

 

[possumheart]

Baden-Powell was once called M'hlala panzi by the Zulus - he who lies down (to shoot). He earned this nickname by developing a peculiar way of firing a rifle from between his legs while lying on his back. :clap:

During the Ashanti expedition he was called Katankye - the man with the big hat. But his most famous African nickname came from the Matabele: Impeesa - the wolf. It was also translated as `the beast that does not sleep, but walks about at night'. The nickname became famous at Mafeking, where it was translated into English as `The wolf that never sleeps' - a tribute to his reputation as a watchful military scout. At Mafeking, a cannon built during the siege was called `The Wolf' in his honour.

The origin of `Impeesa' is a strange story, however. There are no wolves in Africa, and `Impeesa' means a hyena. It is possible that Baden-Powell misunderstood the word, because to be called a hyena is not a compliment.

I am getting a distinct feeling that there is something amiss in the DNA

 

[possumheart]

Carmel Richie spent most of the second session convincing GBC if he wanted to save his marriage he had to listen to Allison's pain for 10 to 15 minutes each 2nd night until the next session.
No next session was ever booked.

IMO there was never a 10 to 15 minute talk and GBC never had any intention of attending another session.

His take on Carmel's suggestion were explained in the interview with Sgt Jackson
Quote from interview

The counsellor on Monday suggested we set aside fifteen minutes a night to for Allison to vent and GRILL ME on you know (indistinct)

No mention of the counsellor suggesting that I listen so as my wife can vent the pain I have caused her with my past affair that by the way continues.

You are brilliant! good pickup!

 

[marlywings]

A plan - if he could use the 15 minute affair talk from Allison to invoke anger in him, then he could blame her for what he had to do to her .... end her life and make good use of the forthcoming Insurance Policy money and Superannuation Fund money.
'The Counsellor was a party to it as well' ..... because the plan was hatched while she was talking him into agreeing to do the short talk during the hour taken to talk him into agreeing to the 15 minute affair talk.

He probably always knew that he would hide Allison's body under the Kholo Bridge ..... just wasn't sure when it would happen. When it did, he then had to swing into action.

I swing from planned to unplanned. Right now I tend to think unplanned On that night when Allison was murdered, he had a woman in each ear putting the pressure on. One of them was talking a bright & rosy future, the other was talking the past.

He cracked because he couldn't handle the pressure. One of them had to go. Allison was worth more to him dead than alive. He could then "move on" to the future all cashed up with TM, the one who put him on a pedestal & idolised him.

 

[LadyBird1]

Baden-Powell was once called M'hlala panzi by the Zulus - he who lies down (to shoot). He earned this nickname by developing a peculiar way of firing a rifle from between his legs while lying on his back. :clap:

During the Ashanti expedition he was called Katankye - the man with the big hat. But his most famous African nickname came from the Matabele: Impeesa - the wolf. It was also translated as `the beast that does not sleep, but walks about at night'. The nickname became famous at Mafeking, where it was translated into English as `The wolf that never sleeps' - a tribute to his reputation as a watchful military scout. At Mafeking, a cannon built during the siege was called `The Wolf' in his honour.

The origin of `Impeesa' is a strange story, however. There are no wolves in Africa, and `Impeesa' means a hyena. It is possible that Baden-Powell misunderstood the word, because to be called a hyena is not a compliment.

I am getting a distinct feeling that there is something amiss in the DNA

The meaning of his ‘African name’, ‘Impeesa’ or impisi, is closer to ‘the animal that skulks by night’: in other words, the hyena.

 

[marlywings]

February 05, 2014

ALLISON Baden-Clay told a counsellor her husband blamed her chronic depression for his three-year affair with an employee.

In a pre-trial hearing in the Supreme Court yesterday, details of the couple's marital problems were revealed by Relationships Australia counsellor Carmel Ritchie.

Accused murderer Gerard Baden-Clay's attitude to his wife's panic attacks and psychotic episodes was "get over it", Allison told the counsellor.

Four days before reporting his wife missing, Baden-Clay told the same counsellor he used to blame his wife for the disappointments in his life.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...fair-court-hears/story-fnihsrf2-1226817737331

 

[marlywings]

You were far too good for him Allison...far far too good. Justice is coming!!

Asked to describe her problems in a few words, Allison told the counsellor: "Inadequate. Not good enough. Believe I let it happen. Gerard's way is the right way. Gerard had an affair for the last three years. Parenting, Gerard criticises me. Fear that one day he will leave me".

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...fair-court-hears/story-fnihsrf2-1226817737331

 

[DrWatson]

While the defence - and the media perhaps - appear to be playing up the depression angle (possibly leading to having another go at playing the suicide card), I would think that anxiety (which is much more related to panic attacks as she is quoted as having had) and plain old worry may have been the order of the day.

If she had any active depression, I suspect it was mild and well controlled by the Zoloft. The fact that she was on the Zoloft may in fact mitigate AGAINST a suicide theory. Apart from all the problems about blood levels in the liver, and how the heck did she get to Kholo Creek....

No - I'm thinking more and more that it was just very simple, and spur of the moment. I don't think GBC had plans, either for murder, or insurance, or life with Toni. I think perhaps Allison may have taken the opportunity of a night at home, with the girls probably round having a sleepover with their cousins, to have a go at the 15-minute venting thing (what a silly idea that seems to be).

And perhaps, GBC, with Allison sounding off and giving him a hard time, he simply flipped his lid and boiled over. Could have hit her, or simply pushed her over and down, knelt on her chest (possibly the bruise) and smothered her with a pillow. That would be my guess as cause of death, although we don't know that from the autopsy.

The screams heard by neighbours may have been when he pushed her over and down. He then probably simply dragged her out the back, picking up bits of vegetation in the process, and dumped her in the back of the car. Then being familiar with the area around Kholo, where the scout camp is, just headed out that way with no fixed plan in mind. Then got to the creek bridge and possibly thought that if he dumped the body in the creek, it would float off into the main river and head downstream - a long way. Incidentally, there are bullsharks in the Brisbane River all the way up there - and even further up, above Mt Crosby Weir - but I doubt that even entered into his calculations. There were no calculations. it was all spur of the moment stuff and making it up as he went along.

That's my current theory, although I reserve the right to change it willy-nilly...! :blushing:

And I just wonder if the counsellor didn't want to give evidence because she felt responsible for suggesting the venting session that may - just MAY - have led to the whole sorry episode....

Just some thoughts to mull over - I'm off to bed and get some beauty sleep!

 

[Makara]

I swing from planned to unplanned. Right now I tend to think unplanned On that night when Allison was murdered, he had a woman in each ear putting the pressure on. One of them was talking a bright & rosy future, the other was talking the past.

He cracked because he couldn't handle the pressure. One of them had to go. Allison was worth more to him dead than alive. He could then "move on" to the future all cashed up with TM, the one who put him on a pedestal & idolised him.

I do believe there was a venting session or whatever that night and it escalated into a physical fight between the two of them. Who knows, maybe Allison snapped and lashed out first, clawing his face and he in turn attacked her, fully knowing what he was doing could possibly end Allison's life but he didn't stop. In his mind he was probably also attacking TM, the counsellor and everyone else who had been on his back to conform to their way of thinking.

I know there is also the money issue that the prosecution are using as a catalyst for Allison's murder. Maybe it's just me and I've never met him but I don't think GBC has the intestinal fortitude or intelligence to plan or pre-meditate a murder. He just strikes me as incredibly dumb, even a bit naive. The consummate mummy's boy, who throws a tantrum when he can't get his own way. Deep down he's a very insecure individual who has to pump himself up by name dropping and bragging.

I don't believe that TM figured in GBC's big picture for the future. I think he would have quite happily ditched her and not looked back. He'd had a taste of the occasional fling with younger women, no strings attached and liked it. TM was becoming a noose around his neck, just like Allison, in his mind, appeared to be. I wonder if it ever crosses TM's mind that she could have been the one lying dead in the mud at Kholo Creek?

 

[LadyBird1]

February 05, 2014

ALLISON Baden-Clay told a counsellor her husband blamed her chronic depression for his three-year affair with an employee.

In a pre-trial hearing in the Supreme Court yesterday, details of the couple's marital problems were revealed by Relationships Australia counsellor Carmel Ritchie.

Accused murderer Gerard Baden-Clay's attitude to his wife's panic attacks and psychotic episodes was "get over it", Allison told the counsellor.

Four days before reporting his wife missing, Baden-Clay told the same counsellor he used to blame his wife for the disappointments in his life.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...fair-court-hears/story-fnihsrf2-1226817737331

There is quite a bit more in this report that we have not touched on today.

".....During her honeymoon years earlier she had a "very severe reaction" to antimalarial medication Lariam.

It led her to suffer chronic depression, panic attacks and psychotic episodes and she had been on and off medication ever since, the court was told."

When I read that bit, another penny dropped for me.....

I might re-word that, translate it from a survivors point of view.

During her honeymoon years earlier, she had a "very severe reaction" to antimalarial medication Lariam.

He said, "What! You're sick? Get over it."

By and by there appeared little windows of doubt regarding her beloved husband. In fact, sometimes he acted a bit odd. Worse, it nearly looked like he never showed any empathy. Actually, sometimes it was like he had no soul.
"No", said Allison resolutely to herself. "I shouldn't harbour such unkind thoughts about him. I will try a different tack. I really want this marriage to work."
Feeling a bit down sometimes, just sad that's all.
"He tells me get over it. He tells me I am not up to par. Not good enough for his standards."
..................................... Soul searching..............Lots of soul searching

"Maybe its those antimalarial pills I was taking. Because it's about then I started to get the feeling of losing myself.
Now he is pushing this depression stuff."
..................................................
An aside from me (LB1) here who is able to view matters from a safe distance and a bit if experience to boot.

"It's not the pills Allison. It is him. He has been dragging you down since your honeymoon. You are about to be the subject of Gaslighting. Open your eyes Allison. Listen to your instincts. Stop blaming yourself! That is exactly what he wants you to believe."

Later it was Allison who found work. Goodness gracious. He's not even any good at that. And so it was that she got him a job at Flight Centre. (Until he wrecked that too.) Notably it was Allison who was held in high esteem. No words of praise were offered to G. (But that is another matter.)

But still the negativities continued.
Everything NEGATIVE.
Yet it appears that Allison never actually realized that HE was the cause of her problems. She continued to buy his rubbish.
My heart about breaks when I read of her excitement over actually getting him along to see the councillor.
Appears like this marriage was doomed from the start. Many reasons. She was a high achiever. He pretended something like that. She tried to build, he tried to destroy.
Appears it was a give and take marriage.
She gave her all, he took her all, and more..

 

[LadyBird1]

From the same report
"he used to blame his wife for the disappointments in his life."
That, IMO is a fairly heavy burden to lumber someone with.
I am sure Allison had fairly broad shoulders, but along with the abuse he dished out, THAT (blame shifting) just about takes the cake.

 

[sosocurious]

Planned or unplanned, I lean toward unplanned most of the time.
IMO GBC was under some real pressure on that Thursday evening.

* Phone call to TMH about 5pm during which he informed her ABC was attending the conference.
* Three days prior had told Carmel Richie he wanted to build a future with ABC.
* Told TMH he would be with her unconditionally.
* ABC had questions -- some of which TMH could answer. eg did you feel bad he was married?

These two women were going to be in the same room all day and GBC had no control over how the day would transpire and what would be revealed.

 

[Makara]

Snap Doc! I just read this after posting my last message. Seems like we're on the same page with this one.

I also think that GBC initially turned off into Wirrabara Road to dispose of Allison's body. He was seen by and spoken to there by one of the nearby resident's who was out tending to their horses. GBC crapped himself and took off back to Mt. Crosby Road. What to do? He had his wife's dead body in the back of the car. What if the person who saw him called the police? He had to dump the body and fast. The Kholo Creek Bridge was almost in front of him. Problem solved. He returned to the bridge later that night with another to show them where Allison was because they didn't believe what he'd done.

On another topic. I do want to add my :twocents: about depression, or more specifically post-natal depression. PND is brought about by a hormone imbalance shortly after giving birth. While pregnant, a woman's estrogen levels are elevated, while her progesterone levels are not. After giving birth the estrogen levels drop dramatically. In most cases they level out again but when they don't, PND kicks in. Why doctor's prescribe a 'general' anti-depressant for PND is beyond me. What the woman needs is for her hormones to be regulated or re-aligned again and this can be done with a simple course of hormone therapy. :twocents:

While the defence - and the media perhaps - appear to be playing up the depression angle (possibly leading to having another go at playing the suicide card), I would think that anxiety (which is much more related to panic attacks as she is quoted as having had) and plain old worry may have been the order of the day.

If she had any active depression, I suspect it was mild and well controlled by the Zoloft. The fact that she was on the Zoloft may in fact mitigate AGAINST a suicide theory. Apart from all the problems about blood levels in the liver, and how the heck did she get to Kholo Creek....

No - I'm thinking more and more that it was just very simple, and spur of the moment. I don't think GBC had plans, either for murder, or insurance, or life with Toni. I think perhaps Allison may have taken the opportunity of a night at home, with the girls probably round having a sleepover with their cousins, to have a go at the 15-minute venting thing (what a silly idea that seems to be).

And perhaps, GBC, with Allison sounding off and giving him a hard time, he simply flipped his lid and boiled over. Could have hit her, or simply pushed her over and down, knelt on her chest (possibly the bruise) and smothered her with a pillow. That would be my guess as cause of death, although we don't know that from the autopsy.

The screams heard by neighbours may have been when he pushed her over and down. He then probably simply dragged her out the back, picking up bits of vegetation in the process, and dumped her in the back of the car. Then being familiar with the area around Kholo, where the scout camp is, just headed out that way with no fixed plan in mind. Then got to the creek bridge and possibly thought that if he dumped the body in the creek, it would float off into the main river and head downstream - a long way. Incidentally, there are bullsharks in the Brisbane River all the way up there - and even further up, above Mt Crosby Weir - but I doubt that even entered into his calculations. There were no calculations. it was all spur of the moment stuff and making it up as he went along.

That's my current theory, although I reserve the right to change it willy-nilly...! :blushing:

And I just wonder if the counsellor didn't want to give evidence because she felt responsible for suggesting the venting session that may - just MAY - have led to the whole sorry episode....

Just some thoughts to mull over - I'm off to bed and get some beauty sleep!