Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[LadyBird1]

Snap Doc! I just read this after posting my last message. Seems like we're on the same page with this one.

I also think that GBC initially turned off into Wirrabara Road to dispose of Allison's body. He was seen by and spoken to there by one of the nearby resident's who was out tending to their horses. GBC crapped himself and took off back to Mt. Crosby Road. What to do? He had his wife's dead body in the back of the car. What if the person who saw him called the police? He had to dump the body and fast. The Kholo Creek Bridge was almost in front of him. Problem solved. He returned to the bridge later that night with another to show them where Allison was because they didn't believe what he'd done.

On another topic. I do want to add my :twocents: about depression, or more specifically post-natal depression. PND is brought about by a hormone imbalance shortly after giving birth. While pregnant, a woman's estrogen levels are elevated, while her progesterone levels are not. After giving birth the estrogen levels drop dramatically. In most cases they level out again but when they don't, PND kicks in. Why doctor's prescribe a 'general' anti-depressant for PND is beyond me. What the woman needs is for her hormones to be regulated or re-aligned again and this can be done with a simple course of hormone therapy. :twocents:

Hallelujah Praise the Lord! Finally after all this time, someone has spoken about PND with some sense. And mentioned the general ignorance surrounding the matter.
The first part of your post Makara is pretty darned good too! Gulp!

 

[sosocurious]

Makara that sounds very plausible.

Would/could GBC have told Allison that TMH was going to be at the conference.
Maybe in the hope she would not attend.

I think if I were her I would have asked how do you know that?
Options 1 Oh we were talking on the phone.
2 Silence
Both are damning.
Maybe Allison did yell scream.

 

[LadyBird1]

Makara that sounds very plausible.

Would/could GBC have told Allison that TMH was going to be at the conference.
Maybe in the hope she would not attend.

I think if I were her I would have asked how do you know that?
Options 1 Oh we were talking on the phone.
2 Silence
Both are damning.
Maybe Allison did yell scream.

"Would/could GBC have told Allison that TMH was going to be at the conference.
Maybe in the hope she would not attend."

Allison came home from the hairdresser looking fantastic. Probably cost a bit, but it would be money well spent. She was looking forward to this conference, she looked pretty good. And boy oh boy, this hairdo would surely impress G.
Top of the world stuff! Whoa....Here comes G!

Then ..............the bombshell.....................

 

[Makara]

Makara that sounds very plausible.

Would/could GBC have told Allison that TMH was going to be at the conference.
Maybe in the hope she would not attend.

I think if I were her I would have asked how do you know that?
Options 1 Oh we were talking on the phone.
2 Silence
Both are damning.
Maybe Allison did yell scream.

No, I think he was too gutless to tell Allison TM was attending the conference. He would then have to reveal how he knew, although he could have said that Kate Rankin told him but if Kate denied that, he would be caught out in another lie. Nup, I don't think he told Allison.

GBC made two very short calls (5 and 6 seconds in duration) from his mobile to Kate Rankin on Thursday 19 April at 5:10pm and 5:11pm respectively. They were the last documented calls GBC made from his mobile that night. I would love to see the records from the other phone(s) he had in his possession.

According to Allison's phone record, on Thrusday 19 April she phoned GBC's mobile at 5:01pm. That call lasted 0:22 seconds. Was it a text or voice message perhaps?

At 6:26pm Allison calls her home number. That call lasted 0:1 second. She probably got her own answering service. Obviously GBC wasn't there. He was still at Nigelaine's place with the girls, or so she thought. She next calls GBC's mobile again at 6:27pm. This call lasted for 0:21 seconds. Another text or voice message?

The last call Allison made from her mobile was to OW at 8:28pm for a duration of 1:01. Why such a short call? Had Allison gone to Nigelaine's after the hairdresser to have dinner and say goodnight to her girls before heading home? When she arrived at Nigelaine's was GBC absent? She asked where he was and was told that he'd had some work to attend to and would be back soon. Allison eventually went home. She phoned OW at 8:28pm to ask if GBC had returned. Allison had her suspicions as to what 'work' GBC was attending to and then she heard his car in the driveway. The mood was set and it wouldn't be a happy ending for all concerned.

ETA: All speculation on my part.

 

[Thinking]

Snap Doc! I just read this after posting my last message. Seems like we're on the same page with this one.

I also think that GBC initially turned off into Wirrabara Road to dispose of Allison's body. He was seen by and spoken to there by one of the nearby resident's who was out tending to their horses. GBC crapped himself and took off back to Mt. Crosby Road. What to do? He had his wife's dead body in the back of the car. What if the person who saw him called the police? He had to dump the body and fast. The Kholo Creek Bridge was almost in front of him. Problem solved. He returned to the bridge later that night with another to show them where Allison was because they didn't believe what he'd done.

On another topic. I do want to add my :twocents: about depression, or more specifically post-natal depression. PND is brought about by a hormone imbalance shortly after giving birth. While pregnant, a woman's estrogen levels are elevated, while her progesterone levels are not. After giving birth the estrogen levels drop dramatically. In most cases they level out again but when they don't, PND kicks in. Why doctor's prescribe a 'general' anti-depressant for PND is beyond me. What the woman needs is for her hormones to be regulated or re-aligned again and this can be done with a simple course of hormone therapy. :twocents:

I am with you Makara and Doc, I reckon your theories are spot on (for now anyway ). Unplanned and adlibbed I think.

Makara has there been mention of a resident seeing GBC on/near Wirraburra Rd?

 

[MsAnais]

Snap Doc! I just read this after posting my last message. Seems like we're on the same page with this one.

I also think that GBC initially turned off into Wirrabara Road to dispose of Allison's body. He was seen by and spoken to there by one of the nearby resident's who was out tending to their horses. GBC crapped himself and took off back to Mt. Crosby Road. What to do? He had his wife's dead body in the back of the car. What if the person who saw him called the police? He had to dump the body and fast. The Kholo Creek Bridge was almost in front of him. Problem solved. He returned to the bridge later that night with another to show them where Allison was because they didn't believe what he'd done.

On another topic. I do want to add my :twocents: about depression, or more specifically post-natal depression. PND is brought about by a hormone imbalance shortly after giving birth. While pregnant, a woman's estrogen levels are elevated, while her progesterone levels are not. After giving birth the estrogen levels drop dramatically. In most cases they level out again but when they don't, PND kicks in. Why doctor's prescribe a 'general' anti-depressant for PND is beyond me. What the woman needs is for her hormones to be regulated or re-aligned again and this can be done with a simple course of hormone therapy. :twocents:

Hi guys!:seeya: Never posted on this thread before but have been following the case in MSM. Will now follow the case on-thread!

I just wanted to second what Makara is saying re PND. You make such a valuable point there re general antidepressants not being the optimal treatment. It is indeed hormonal.

Another thing that is very misunderstood by the general public regarding PND is that it is SERIOUS. It's not about being a 'little bit weepy' and emotional. A lot of women suffering PND have severe depression and it is not uncommon for psychosis to kick in. It upsets me on behalf of women with PND that it's still perceived as kind of trite 'woman's problem' but not a genuine mental health issue. :twocents:

 

[Trooper]

one thing says it wasn't suicide to me..... Al has the time to get her hair done, but doesn't ring her solicitor, or posts a letter invalidating Gerards claim to her superannuation or /and insurance>>?? like Al is going to leave that money for TONI and Gerard??? I don't think so. she would have made her parents the beneficiary, if in fact her suicide didn't negate it, but she certainly wouldn't have set Ger and tone up out of the generosity of her heart!!


Saint she may have been, but even saints are wised up.

 

[Trooper]

but I think Gerard actually thinks people will believe that. That's how truly silly he is.

 

[DrWatson]

one thing says it wasn't suicide to me..... Al has the time to get her hair done,

This is another red herring AGAINST the suicide theory, to me. If she got her hair done so she'd look good after offing herself - why dress up in her daggies, and why go all the way to Kholo Creek (no way she walked there) and throw herself into the goopy mud?

Unless of course the argument blew up after she got home from having her hair done for the function next day. But it still doesn't explain how she got to Kholo Creek - it's a long, hilly way. And if she followed the main road (Moggill Rd) she'd have been seen for sure.

 

[Bazinga]

Planned or unplanned, I lean toward unplanned most of the time.
IMO GBC was under some real pressure on that Thursday evening.

* Phone call to TMH about 5pm during which he informed her ABC was attending the conference.
* Three days prior had told Carmel Richie he wanted to build a future with ABC.
* Told TMH he would be with her unconditionally.
* ABC had questions -- some of which TMH could answer. eg did you feel bad he was married?

These two women were going to be in the same room all day and GBC had no control over how the day would transpire and what would be revealed.

Hi everyone, so long since I've posted but glad this is getting underway, so often on my mind. I agree with SoSo GBC was under an enormous amount of pressure and it must have felt like Allison might confront Toni or v versa at the conference. He'd been juggling all these lies. I think it was probably unplanned but his pent up frustrations and fear of losing control of his life might have made him snap.
I also wanted to add some insight into a reason why the counsellor might have suggested the 15 min thing.
Unfortunately I have experienced similar in the last year and can relate to poor Allison. When you find out about an affair it's hard to think of anything else and the questions or pain comes up often and sometimes when you can't or shouldn't discuss, eg in front of children or when you are out with friends etc. It can feel impossible to cope with for the betrayed spouse and the other spouse as well. From personal experience a counsellor might suggest setting aside some calm time without other pressures or distractions to hear how each feels and to ask the questions you need answers to. You then know you'll have a chance to be heard and it's easier to carry on between times, try to act normal or loving. I imagine that was the intention but I agree it seems it was too soon and without proper assessment or advice given they'd only had that session.
Also I'm assuming he didn't tell the counsellor about the continuing affair and instead said how committed he was to repairing the marriage...

 

[DrWatson]

I agree it seems it was too soon and without proper assessment or advice given they'd only had that session.
Also I'm assuming he didn't tell the counsellor about the continuing affair and instead said how committed he was to repairing the marriage...

Forgive my cynicism, but I suspect he only went to the counsellor to shut Allison up, and he only played along with the counsellor to shut HER up. I'd be amazed if he ever had ANY intention of doing all those "exercises" the counsellor suggested in her naivety. It would appear to have been a recipe for the disaster that did actually occur - especially if Allison (a) took the counsellor seriously, and (b) she thought that GBC was too.

 

[MsAnais]

This is another red herring AGAINST the suicide theory, to me. If she got her hair done so she'd look good after offing herself - why dress up in her daggies, and why go all the way to Kholo Creek (no way she walked there) and throw herself into the goopy mud?

Unless of course the argument blew up after she got home from having her hair done for the function next day. But it still doesn't explain how she got to Kholo Creek - it's a long, hilly way. And if she followed the main road (Moggill Rd) she'd have been seen for sure.

BBM
You make a great point DrWatson. In my experience, people who are suicidal are in the absolute depths of despair - they are depressed and exhausted by life. They are hardly likely to summon the energy to dress up for the departure......that's an absolutely ridiculous argument IMO.

And if they did happen to do that, as you say, then their appearance in death would be extremely important to them - they would not then dress up in old clothes and go into mud. :banghead:

 

[linette]

BBM
You make a great point DrWatson. In my experience, people who are suicidal are in the absolute depths of despair - they are depressed and exhausted by life. They are hardly likely to summon the energy to dress up for the departure......that's an absolutely ridiculous argument IMO.

And if they did happen to do that, as you say, then their appearance in death would be extremely important to them - they would not then dress up in old clothes and go into mud. :banghead:

Agree !!

 

[possumheart]

I just thought I would remind those aren't aware, or have forgotten ...
Alison's hair appointment was to fix up a hair colour that she wasn't happy with. It was the second time that she had been back to try to have it corrected, and the appointment was complimentary. It seemed she was a bit huffy about it.(from affidavits)
That the appointment was timed the night before the conference was possibly partially coincidence.

 

[alioop]

Just a crumb from the international news... GBC's fiancee prior to Allison has been appointed CEO of the international branch of a very large Australian company. I have a good mind to send someone in Arthur Gorrie a postcard.

MM, your post reminded me that Allison told Carmel Ritchie that she had been previously engaged to a diving instructor.

 

[alioop]

Thanks for joining us Isisrising. Appreciate your psychological insights!

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

While the defence - and the media perhaps - appear to be playing up the depression angle (possibly leading to having another go at playing the suicide card), I would think that anxiety (which is much more related to panic attacks as she is quoted as having had) and plain old worry may have been the order of the day.

If she had any active depression, I suspect it was mild and well controlled by the Zoloft. The fact that she was on the Zoloft may in fact mitigate AGAINST a suicide theory. Apart from all the problems about blood levels in the liver, and how the heck did she get to Kholo Creek....

No - I'm thinking more and more that it was just very simple, and spur of the moment. I don't think GBC had plans, either for murder, or insurance, or life with Toni. I think perhaps Allison may have taken the opportunity of a night at home, with the girls probably round having a sleepover with their cousins, to have a go at the 15-minute venting thing (what a silly idea that seems to be).

And perhaps, GBC, with Allison sounding off and giving him a hard time, he simply flipped his lid and boiled over. Could have hit her, or simply pushed her over and down, knelt on her chest (possibly the bruise) and smothered her with a pillow. That would be my guess as cause of death, although we don't know that from the autopsy.

The screams heard by neighbours may have been when he pushed her over and down. He then probably simply dragged her out the back, picking up bits of vegetation in the process, and dumped her in the back of the car. Then being familiar with the area around Kholo, where the scout camp is, just headed out that way with no fixed plan in mind. Then got to the creek bridge and possibly thought that if he dumped the body in the creek, it would float off into the main river and head downstream - a long way. Incidentally, there are bullsharks in the Brisbane River all the way up there - and even further up, above Mt Crosby Weir - but I doubt that even entered into his calculations. There were no calculations. it was all spur of the moment stuff and making it up as he went along.

That's my current theory, although I reserve the right to change it willy-nilly...! :blushing:

And I just wonder if the counsellor didn't want to give evidence because she felt responsible for suggesting the venting session that may - just MAY - have led to the whole sorry episode....

Just some thoughts to mull over - I'm off to bed and get some beauty sleep!

Doc - I too have wondered about the wisdom of the venting sessions and their potential to create more conflict. Narcissists react angrily to anything that they perceive as criticism. Venting could be an effective catalyst for violence.

The counsellor's argument against testifying is dubious. She said that if she revealed confidential information from counselling sessions, this could deter others who need help from seeking counselling. However, the counsellor's testimony allows Allison to speak from the grave and possibly help convict her murderer. The testimony can't harm Allison anymore than she's been harmed already.

 

[BrissyLass]

I am with you Makara and Doc, I reckon your theories are spot on (for now anyway ). Unplanned and adlibbed I think.

Makara has there been mention of a resident seeing GBC on/near Wirraburra Rd?

Hello :seeya: Long time since I've posted, but I have been keeping up in here and with the case in general.

I'm of this opinion as well ... that night was all unplanned, unrehearsed, adlibbed, and just an all round shambles that had a tragic ending. I think if you asked 100 people their opinion on that night, my feeling is 99 would agree...

Having said that, will the prosecution have enough evidence to lead a jury to be able to find GBC guilty beyond reasonable doubt??

Just my :twocents: and thoughts

 

[DrWatson]

Having said that, will the prosecution have enough evidence to lead a jury to be able to find GBC guilty beyond reasonable doubt??

And that, right there, is the concern we all have. Of course, if GBC is innocent, and we all have it terribly wrong, then he should get off. But prejudices aside, it's the lack of specific evidence that worries me a bit - the fact that it is all circumstantial. And the "beyond reasonable doubt" test has to be met....

 

[Trooper]

the evidence so far revealed is but the tip of the iceberg....just enough to prevent him from getting bail, ( and that was where at the bail hearing, the defence of suicide didn't fly, hence, no bail ),,, this hearing was merely to adjudicate the significance, if any, of Carmel Ritchies stuff and the autopsy findings, but only a small part of those findings, so far,,, hang in there for the whole panoply to unfold. .. Not forgetting that Toni is a prosecution witness, that hasn't changed and while she isn't pleased to be that, that is the reality of her situation , and why is she a prosecution witness?? because she has more to gain being that than being a defence witness. How was she edged into being a witness for the Prosecution??.... lets wait and see.