Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

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I attended today's session as well.


The idea of the 10-15 minutes every second night was so that Alison could express her feelings to GBC. He was not supposed to speak during the time but could perhaps say he was remorseful at the end, if that's how he felt.

Her ( the counsellor's ) idea of this 'venting/ expressing feelings ' every second night was that Gerard's past was currently Alison's present. So basically she needed to take time to move through it. Whereas Gerard just wanted to wipe the slate clean at that point and move forward.

Respectfully snipped. Thank you so much wwgy, ali and BN for your reporting today, it is greatly appreciated!

I just wanted to add that GBC's past was in fact also his present, as he knew that the affair with TM was still continuing even as he sat there in the counsellor's office. So one would think it would be a little bit exhausting for him to have to face 15 minutes of Allison's pain each second night, knowing all the while that he was still continuing the affair under her nose. I'm not at all surprised he was against this strategy, for this reason as well as others mentioned.
 
Lost, seeking clarity: Who classed these three people as a certain personality?
ABC, ABC's father or the Counsellor?

Can you provide some clarity please.

ABC did. She had some psychological training and discussed various temperment types and referred to GBC as being choleric on the temperaments of personality.

http://temperaments.fighunter.com/?page=choleric
 
Strangeworld, I totally agree with you. I don't want to blame the counsellor either, however I think this was an inappropriate 'homework' exercise to set on the first meeting with GBC - she had seen ABC on 27 Mar 2012 by herself. Maybe this is why the counsellor stood behind the confidentiality clause when she did.

Yes, imagine GBC 'listening to how Allison feels' for even a minute.

ABC who had some psychology training, talked of GBC's choleric temperament. Here's some reading on it.

http://temperaments.fighunter.com/?page=choleric

It can be a bit of a minefield counselling couples when one of the clients has been seen individually. It raises many issues, such as ensuring fairness and equity in the client-counsellor relationship, and making sure that neither client perceives favouritism, particularly from the perspective of the client starting late in the relationship (in this case, it would have been GBC, as Allison had already had a session).

It depends on how the relationship with Allison was formed. For example, you can have individual therapy, couples/family therapy with one client only (work on relationship issues without both parties present), or couples/family therapy with both clients present. It is very important for counsellors to clarify these boundaries, and make sure that each person AND the relationship itself is treated like a separate entity (if that makes sense).

I don't know how Relationships Australia works, so I'm not sure how these boundaries would have been set.

Also, privacy issues are much more important when it comes to couples therapy - for instance, the counsellor, having seen Allison individually first, would had to have been careful about what she spoke to GBC about, because Allison may not have specifically consented to what information was to be shared. Let me tell you, it can be tricky to make sure you don't reveal information when discussing relationships without both parties present. Keeps you on your toes!

I also wonder why the counsellor felt it so important to spend a whole session, which was intended to only be a half session, with GBC trying to convince him to do these homework exercises. You are never going to change a client in one session, and if he was that resistant, it would have rung alarm bells with me. I believe (and of course this is as an outsider looking in without all details of the initial assessment) the time would have been best served by getting the two to talk IN SESSION. I wonder if the counsellor even observed their communication skills before sending them home with this sort of homework. This should be a very important step, particularly when dealing with two very different personalities in Allison and GBC.

Anyway, these are just a few thoughts - I really do want to say though that counselling is a VERY challenging profession, and hindsight makes it much easier to critique what's happened. I hope Carmel has plenty of support herself - would be absolutely horrible to lose a client this way.
 
Does anyone know if that is it for Carmel Ritchie now she has given this evidence ....... or will she still be required again for more questioning at the Trial?
 
Re Ladybirds post

What I took from listening to the counsellor today was that Alison didn't want to leave. She was there to make herself better, to try and change to make Gerard happy. She told the councillor that she took some blame for him having an affair.

Yes wewillgetyou. That is indeed what I have thought along too.

(Groan... That is what so many lovely ladies who are yoked with a narcissist think... And they will do so much effort in order to save the marriage)

Now Allison's personality type appears to have been completely different to the "choleric" one of her husband.
For starters Allison appears to have been normal. Fun loving, maternal, cared enough about her marriage to actively seek professional help. She appears to have taken stock of her situation and was actively working on how to adjust to it. That she even suggested he was choleric, indicates she had been working on his problems. Trying to work out just what was wrong with him, so that she might understand him better.

He was none of the above.
 
Body language of GBC in court today was interesting while hearing evidence from the counsellor. He kept rolling his tongue around the inside of his mouth. I googled this in relation to body language and this is what I found.

http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/tongue_body_language.htm

Inside the mouth
With mouth closed and tongue inside the mouth, you can still sometimes see what it is doing, although this is a hidden action and often the person themself does not realize they are doing this.
Pressed against the cheek it can indicate thinking and uncertainty. This can also indicate contempt and a form of duper's delight, especially when done briefly.


BTW, duper's delight is where they delight in deceiving others.
 
Every time I read 'choleric' I think 'cholera'. With the main symptoms as diarrhoea and vomiting, I guess it still fits :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
Body language of GBC in court today was interesting while hearing evidence from the counsellor. He kept rolling his tongue around the inside of his mouth. I googled this in relation to body language and this is what I found.

http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/tongue_body_language.htm

Inside the mouth
With mouth closed and tongue inside the mouth, you can still sometimes see what it is doing, although this is a hidden action and often the person themself does not realize they are doing this.
Pressed against the cheek it can indicate thinking and uncertainty. This can also indicate contempt and a form of duper's delight, especially when done briefly.


BTW, duper's delight is where they delight in deceiving others.

Dupers Delight?
People who deceive often find a secret pleasure in their success. It is similar to the pleasure that people get when they exercise power. It is as if the brain rewards us for achieving control over other people.
Thankyou for that observation BN. Funny thing, I have been thinking about Dupers Delight quite a lot of late. Or the delight in duping others, but then thought I might have been being over critical.
 
Body language of GBC in court today was interesting while hearing evidence from the counsellor. He kept rolling his tongue around the inside of his mouth. I googled this in relation to body language and this is what I found.

http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/tongue_body_language.htm

Inside the mouth
With mouth closed and tongue inside the mouth, you can still sometimes see what it is doing, although this is a hidden action and often the person themself does not realize they are doing this.
Pressed against the cheek it can indicate thinking and uncertainty. This can also indicate contempt and a form of duper's delight, especially when done briefly.


BTW, duper's delight is where they delight in deceiving others.

Duper's delight is the 'tongue in cheek' expression. I understood you meant more than that BN.
GBC was a big snorer remember - following on from that he would likely breathe through his mouth a lot I would expect - leading to a dry mouth. Rolling the tongue over the teeth and around the mouth, is likely generating saliva.
DW would know more than I.
 
I know that the Detectives were wanting to arrange for a Psychiatrist to test GBC (for self harm apparently) when he was taken to hospital following his accident; but he was discharged before that could occur.

Does anyone know if GBC could be examined by a Psychologist or a Psychiatrist while he is being held in Arthur Gorrie? If so, could that Professional person be called to give evidence at the Trial in June?

I would imagine that Carmel Ritchie's profiling of GBC would be compared with that of any other Professional who may be called to give evidence. I guess that it still remains for GBC to be actually be tied to the murdering / interfering with a corpse charges.
 
TEN News Queensland ‏@tennewsqld 7m
RT @GreenhalghSarah: Tonight - Personal details about rship btn Allison & Gerard Baden-Clay revealed as marriage counsellor takes the stand
 
http://www.news.com.au/national/que...t-hears/story-fnii5v6w-1226817737331?from=pub

Allison Baden-Clay went to see counsellor about husband Gerard's affair, court hears
21 MINUTES AGO FEBRUARY 04, 2014 5:35PM

The routine hearing is to resolve legal issues ahead of the Gerard Baden-Clay's upcoming murder trial in the Brisbane Supreme Court.
Allison told the counsellor her husband Gerard's attitude to the depression was "get over it" and that it had contributed to the affair, the court was told... con't
 
Thanks for that link Fuskier. It's good reporting on Carmel's evidence.

She will no doubt be called to give evidence at the trial.
 
thanks everyone for all your time and work you put into going to court and transcribing the events - it has been really appreciated!
 
I also saw GBC puffing out his cheek, though I don't know if he was rolling his tongue to do it. It seemed to be an emotional response to listening to Carmel. He wasn't doing it yesterday when they were talking about Allisons autopsy report. I don't know what this means if anything.
 
There has been no mention of their financial state being discussed with the counsellor (as being a contributor to marital issues), has there? I still wonder if Allison knew how bad things really were in this regard.
 
Good pickup Thinking. Neither Allison nor Gerard seemed to mention financial worries to Carmel. Allison told Carmel that she worked in their real estate business 4 days a week, that the business had won a prize and that Gerard was an accountant. That would sound to Carmel, I imagine that finances were not a problem.

I still think that Allison knew finances were in trouble. She was working in the office 4 days a week and she was trying to cut costs of life insurances and knew premiums were due. She may not have known the extent of loans from business partners and friends but I think she knew cash flow was a big problem.
 
I'm with you DW. Let's hope the Zoloft packets are deemed 'not admissable'... (dream on MM) ;)

I would say they're irrelevant. What do they prove? Only that someone had a script for the medication. Not that they ever consumed it, nor even that they filled the script for themself (unless there is cctv from the pharmacy).
It's even possible (and this is purely hypothetical) that anyone could walk into a GP surgery, say they were Mary Smith, describe symptoms that justified such a drug and get a script. And then things could be planted.

Patients who are non residents already do this all the time using a relative's Medicare card and getting free treatment, tests etc. I've seen it numerous times.
JMO
 
BBM (thanks for the details alioop!)

I really wonder who determined this would be good therapy. Did Allison request this time each day with GBC to go over her pain, or did Carmel suggest it. It just seems like a very negative approach to couples counselling from my experiences with couples.

Of course getting the negative feelings out can be therapeutic, but IMO it would be best served by a good dose of positivity after this type of 'exercise'. (to be honest, I disagree totally with the idea that Allison and GBC go home and do this - potential for escalation of emotion and very risky). Regardless of what was happening in their marriage, inflicting more negativity on the other party can be detrimental IMO.

Hopefully the 'counsellor' hasn't given up her day job:banghead:

Homework - listening to someone's 'pain'/whingeing for 15 minutes every second day? Almost enough to run a defence of provocation.

Yes, it's all very well for one party to want to save a marriage but if love is gone and the other party has emotionally moved on a legion of counsellors won't make a blind bit of difference. How rehashing a painful episode every second day can be therapeutic (unless you're a masochist) is puzzling.

And FWIW if I were related to the Lord BP clan I wouldn't advertise it. Dysfunctional family doesn't even come close.
JMO
 
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