Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[LadyBird1]

http://www.news.com.au/national/que...t-hears/story-fnii5v6w-1226817737331?from=pub

Allison Baden-Clay went to see counsellor about husband Gerard's affair, court hears
21 MINUTES AGO FEBRUARY 04, 2014 5:35PM

The routine hearing is to resolve legal issues ahead of the Gerard Baden-Clay's upcoming murder trial in the Brisbane Supreme Court.
Allison told the counsellor her husband Gerard's attitude to the depression was "get over it" and that it had contributed to the affair, the court was told... con't

Gerard's attitude to the depression was "get over it" and that it had contributed to the affair, the court was told

This is the precise and exact words of a Blame Shifter.

Nothing is ever his fault. Always a perfectly reasonable explanation. (In the blame shifter's eyes)
This is a chronic long term problem, not an acute or new one.

The "get over it" bit, however is symptomatic of an egotistical person who has no empathy or sympathy for the other party.
"I'll do what I want and I don't care about you, or your feelings about it. Or anybody else for that matter."

 

[Makara]

I initially thought all of this hoo-ha about the counsellor's evidence was a complete waste of time and money and would not bring much to the table in regard to GBC's guilt or innocence. After reading about today's proceedings, I've now changed my mind.

Carmel Ritchie has given Allison a voice to be heard loud and clear. Allison was prepared to fight for her marriage. She obviously loved GBC and wanted to work out their problems, even admitting her own faults and failings within the marriage. I do think Allison was a bit hard on herself in saying that she blamed herself for GBC having an affair. He made that choice and the blame falls squarely on him.

In turn, Carmel's evidence has highlighted GBC as the sleazy, manipulative liar that he is. Come the trial the jury will be fully aware that his affair with TM was still on, yet there he was at the counseling session sprouting on about the affair being over. While those words were coming out of his mouth he also knew that he'd been cheating on his wife and mistress(s) not long ago. All pretty damning for the defence I would think.

Speaking of TM, I'm guessing that she would have read the details of today's hearing by now. I wonder what she thought when she read GBC's words about the affair being over and he wanted to put it (her) all behind him? Did it hurt her or did she think, or even know that those words were all lies? Had GBC discussed the counseling session with her and told her a totally different story to what was actually said?

Seriously if I hear anything further about the GBC's being connected to Baden-Powell, I'm gonna have me a hissy fit! Who gives a flying fig! If I was related to that , I certainly wouldn't be telling anyone.

 

[Trooper]

its terrible what women made Gerard do...they made him lie, and how rotten is that?? Toni made him lie, Al made him lie, Carmel made him lie, Jocelyn Frost made him lie, even the woman constable made him lie. He lied to Toni to keep her dangling, (why?? plenty of fish out there ),,, he lied to Alison... why??? people get divorced all the time, its every 3rd house in AU... well.. he liked to lie... he lied even when he didn't have to..he lied about his business, he lied about his friends, he lied to police, he lied to doctors, he lied to himself...

the whole counseling session was built on a lie, made into a performance because the Toni rubbish was NOT ended. Wasn't going to end. Had no intention of ending it. Or couldn't end it. Even with his wife missing, with police called in to search, he still maintained that the affair was over, with Toni being sacked and all.. big fat fib.

I don't understand how Ms Richies testimony cant point to any other direction other than Gerard lied to her, as usual, and with the straightest of faces.

No doubt , he'd discussed his upcoming Ritchie session with Dad, who was a marriage counselor with the Anglican Care org.... you know it makes sense...

 

[drsleuth]

If only depression was as easy as "getting over it " :banghead:


Poor poor Allison :yellow::yellow:

 

[LegallyBrunette]

How could I forget what I thought was the funniest part of the day

Carmel Ritchie told the court that Gerard told her his grandfather was Lord Baden-Powell. Funny part was she almost forgot this and said it to the court almost as an after thought when questioned if the was anything else he had said to her.

I'll bet ol Gerard didn't like that ! :floorlaugh:

He also told her that he looks after his parents. Not sure in what context that is .....

My bold.
:floorlaugh:

Perhaps he is their landscaping adviser? Someone has to take the blame.:twocents:

 

[Sor Juana]

What I took from listening to the counsellor today was that Alison didn't want to leave. She was there to make herself better, to try and change to make Gerard happy. She told the councillor that she took some blame for him having an affair.

I thought the same. In addition, I thought there was some indication that Gerard plotted the murder of his wife already back then, and his 'intention' to rebuild relationship with Allison was nothing else but deceit. MOO.

 

[Trooper]

I don't understand why divorcing Alison was not an option. yet murdering her was... apart from the profit motive..yet collecting that money was so fraught...so wildly improbable and so hedged with consequences FAR worse that what he was facing>>>?? sure he may have been spivvied up in a suit and tie today, but he has to drop that at the court and don the prison garb, and go back to remand, and the lights out at 9pm, the two slices of white bread and pressed meat for dinner, the no mobile phone, and he was a man who lived on his phone, the no conjugal visits, the other neighbors in the cell etc...

 

[Strangeworld]

Good pickup Thinking. Neither Allison nor Gerard seemed to mention financial worries to Carmel. Allison told Carmel that she worked in their real estate business 4 days a week, that the business had won a prize and that Gerard was an accountant. That would sound to Carmel, I imagine that finances were not a problem.

I still think that Allison knew finances were in trouble. She was working in the office 4 days a week and she was trying to cut costs of life insurances and knew premiums were due. She may not have known the extent of loans from business partners and friends but I think she knew cash flow was a big problem.

Any thorough intake/initial assessment should raise the question of finances, particularly in couples counselling. IMO a counsellor should ask the question outright - how's the finances, any issues with money, is this a stress for you or your partner or both, that sort of thing. Of course one or both clients can decline to answer or deny an issue, but a counsellor SHOULD ask the question. The only way to complete a thorough assessment is to ask questions thoroughly.

A lot of the time pride will stop a client discussing money issues. I would imagine this would be the case here, if the question was asked.

 

[Trooper]

He is just a Clay... Bwana and Eileen didnt do the name change thingy until the family had left Rhodesia, and came to AU... Gerard was born a plain old Clay.. new country new name!!... odd or what>? This whole fantasy about lineage is the big Gerard delusion.

Hopefully, when he's done his sentence he will be, like so many others , deported to his country of birth... bye Gerard..there are seven other people in line for that baronetcy, so let's hope they are safe.....

 

[Strangeworld]

If only depression was as easy as "getting over it " :banghead:


Poor poor Allison :yellow::yellow:

I've been on the receiving end of comments like that, and I can say right now it is demeaning, hurtful, and shows a total lack of empathy. Those three words still make me cringe, so I can't imagine how Allison must have been feeling. IMO he was just tearing her down, piece by piece, every day. I wonder if he ever hoped she would take her own life?

 

[BreakingNews]

Duper's delight is the 'tongue in cheek' expression. I understood you meant more than that BN.
GBC was a big snorer remember - following on from that he would likely breathe through his mouth a lot I would expect - leading to a dry mouth. Rolling the tongue over the teeth and around the mouth, is likely generating saliva.
DW would know more than I.

I agree, MM, but he didn't do this in court yesterday. Only today during the counsellor's evidence.

 

[they'll get you]

I've been on the receiving end of comments like that, and I can say right now it is demeaning, hurtful, and shows a total lack of empathy. Those three words still make me cringe, so I can't imagine how Allison must have been feeling. IMO he was just tearing her down, piece by piece, every day. I wonder if he ever hoped she would take her own life?

Strangeworld I know you're right. He was killing her slowly. I recall TMc saying they had plans of buying a bigger car for all the kids, his and hers. They had plans. I think I can find the article if needed.
Allison told the counsellor her father thought GBC was controlling her. I'll add to say, twice I've stepped in on my children's lives & exposed this controlling rot & it stopped immediately. Cowards hate to be exposed. I'd hate to think Mr Dickie carries those regrets.
I doubt many people could live Allison's life & not suffer depression.

 

[BreakingNews]

I also saw GBC puffing out his cheek, though I don't know if he was rolling his tongue to do it. It seemed to be an emotional response to listening to Carmel. He wasn't doing it yesterday when they were talking about Allisons autopsy report. I don't know what this means if anything.

I saw what looked like his tongue inside his mouth poking the side of his cheek. He did it several times that I saw. Definitely not his usual stoic self.

Cheers Alioop.

 

[wewillgetyou]

In my opinion only - the counselling didn't start and wasn't booked as couples counselling.
Alison was there to 'improve' herself. It was only that Carmel Ritchie mentioned to Alison that she could bring Gerard to a session if she wished. Alison thanked her but said she didn't think he'd come. I'm guessing that's why it wasn't booked as a couples session.
Carmel Ritchie seemed surprised to see him at the next session. She had no prior warning he would be there.

She started his session the same way she did Alison's. With a 60 second snapshot of the person that he was. This was just between the 2 of them while Alison waited in the waiting room.

 

[Trooper]

the blatant lie was really, and truthfully, factully that GERARD couldn't move on from this ridiculous Toni stuff.. He couldn't 'get over it',... what he wanted was no one talking about it, because that tainted the fantasy... everyone was to forget about it, while he and Tone carried on... that is the reality. A highly unlikely expectation.

But he felt entitled to it... everyone was to suspend their own reason and logic and obey his and Tones obviously flawed logic and move on from it and let THEM MOVE ON WITH IT, right>???

 

[Trooper]

HE wasnt moving on from it. TONE wasn't....even Bruce Overland wasn't moving ON... in fact, Bruce himself materialized to keep it MOVIN ON!! so Gerard and his blithering about moving on from it was a kabuki performance... faces, expressions words, meaningless. This was to get the counselor to do a job for him.. shut AL up while he carried on.

 

[Strangeworld]

In my opinion only - the counselling didn't start and wasn't booked as couples counselling.
Alison was there to 'improve' herself. It was only that Carmel Ritchie mentioned to Alison that she could bring Gerard to a session if she wished. Alison thanked her but said she didn't think he'd come. I'm guessing that's why it wasn't booked as a couples session.
Carmel Ritchie seemed surprised to see him at the next session. She had no prior warning he would be there.

She started his session the same way she did Alison's. With a 60 second snapshot of the person that he was. This was just between the 2 of them while Alison waited in the waiting room.

I agree to some extent. I just wonder if it was specifically treated as individual therapy from the beginning, or if the intention was to work on the relationship without GBC there, and Allison just made the comment that she wanted to work on herself. This is common in women who are assuming too much responsibility on the state of their relationship, as I think Allison was. With the limited detail from the session she had with Carmel, she does seem to wear the blame for something that was not her fault.

As soon as GBC entered the client-counsellor relationship, and she spent a whole session talking to him about Allison and the homework task (and obviously asking him about himself), this turned into what I would call couples counselling (at least from an ethical point of view).

IMO, this is how the therapy may have started. Assuming she wasn't given Carmel's details from someone else, I would expect that Allison sought counselling for the purpose of saving her marriage - after all, it was 'Relationships Australia'. I'm sure she was hoping against hope that GBC would eventually attend with her.

She seemed to believe that by 'fixing' herself, she would fix the relationship. She had likely internalised (whether she wanted to or not) what GBC was saying to her - that she was to blame, that she was depressed, that she was the one who needed help, that she was the one he wanted to run from. And I believe Carmel probably saw this in her very quickly. This wasn't someone presenting to improve their life, this was someone wanting help to be a better wife because her husband wasn't happy with her.

If I am on the right track (probably not!! ) I wonder if Allison had any insight of this - she had studied psych, was an experienced, worldly woman, yet still she felt she wasn't enough. Goes to show how damaging words from another can be.

 

[Total]

Hi all
Been awhile. Yes Trooper I agree. thanks Alioop, and others for the view and interpretation of what occurred in court. Obviously he is still carrying on with his own illusions, and disillusions, saying he wants to resurrect the marriage, whilst telling TM he will be with her soon, and still having two others 'on the side'. The biggest thing to come out of it for me is what an incredible liar he is. Why would anyone believe a word he says about anything? That will be his undoing. The fact that nothing he has said or will say can stack up. He keeps lying, and somehow seems to think that because he was on the P&C, Chamber of Commerce and related to Baden-Powell (wow, what a claim to fame!?) people need to take him on his word. Give me a break!

 

[they'll get you]

If anyone's interested Simon Gittany's sentence hearing is tomorrow.

http://searchcourtlists.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/scm/search

1 05 Feb 10:00 Sentence Hearing Criminal Supreme Justice L McCallum Darlinghurst Court 3 Darlinghurst R v Simon Gittany 201100250258

looks like a nudie run for happiness

 

[Trooper]

I cant believe Gerard would let an opportunity to blither about himself go unrewarded..of course he had to turn up to the session..it couldn't be any other way. he had to stamp his totally fabricated authority on any matter that concerned his marriage. What , let 2 woman talk about him without his input? not this side of hell... and who knows? maybe he could put the hard word on her, there she was!! Naturally he had to go. If nothing else, she might be a future client.

He tried it on with one of the doctors he saw that Saturday morning, a very savvy woman too, she saw thru it almost instantly ( see affidavits)