Amanda Berry, Gina deJesus & Michelle Knight - General discussion #5

[ckia2013]

Sounds like an interesting project. Is it for discussion purposes?

Yes, exactly. We thought posting the videos would prompt an interesting discussion, but it hasn't seemed to happen yet =( We need to keep this story alive so that the survivors continue to receive donations.

It will be easier to discuss with the words out there, I think.

We've finished transcribing the second day (I'll post a link soon), but we could still use help with the first day!!

 

[ckia2013]

Okay, a transcript of Michelle's second day on Dr. Phil is here:

http://www.clevelandkidnappings.com/files

Please let us know if you catch any errors! The document is a first draft.

 

[ckia2013]

Gina is beautiful!

 

[CazzBa]

Yes, exactly. We thought posting the videos would prompt an interesting discussion, but it hasn't seemed to happen yet =( We need to keep this story alive so that the survivors continue to receive donations.

It will be easier to discuss with the words out there, I think.

We've finished transcribing the second day (I'll post a link soon), but we could still use help with the first day!!

Well, Michelle Knight’s interview sure had a lot of discussion-worthy stuff. TBH after watching, I have more questions than answers…

The most shocking revelation IMO was where Michelle talked about Castro's daughters and their boyfriends coming over to the house to search for 3 women they thought he had trapped there.

How exactly did Ariel Castro’s daughters come to believe that he was holding 3 women prisoner? It’s true everyone seemed to think he was a private guy who didn’t like folks snooping around his house, but what was it specifically that they heard/saw to make them suspect he was holding captives?

How was Castro able to convince them so easily to not look in the basement, where he was keeping the girls at the time? What a crazy near miss that was, the whole ordeal might have ended years earlier if someone had just snuck a peek down there without him knowing.

For that matter, how did Michelle know that Castro’s daughters were looking for captives? She said in the interview that she heard one of Castro’s grandsons call from the top of the basement stairs that people were being held in the basement, but I suppose it’s possible that Castro’s daughters were not at the house to look for captives at all, (although who knows what the grandson was talking about, in that case) and Castro just told Michelle and the other girls later that his daughters had been searching for them just to taunt them.

Which of Castro’s daughters were at the house? (How many daughters does he have anyway?)

In any case, if the daughters were there looking for the captives, they must have felt awful years later to find out that they were right all along. I can’t imagine how frustrating that must have been for the girls, coming so close to being freed and having it snatched away.

_________
JMO

 

[ckia2013]

Well, Michelle Knight’s interview sure had a lot of discussion-worthy stuff. TBH after watching, I have more questions than answers…

The most shocking revelation IMO was where Michelle talked about Castro's daughters and their boyfriends coming over to the house to search for 3 women they thought he had trapped there.

How exactly did Ariel Castro’s daughters come to believe that he was holding 3 women prisoner? It’s true everyone seemed to think he was a private guy who didn’t like folks snooping around his house, but what was it specifically that they heard/saw to make them suspect he was holding captives?

How was Castro able to convince them so easily to not look in the basement, where he was keeping the girls at the time? What a crazy near miss that was, the whole ordeal might have ended years earlier if someone had just snuck a peek down there without him knowing.

For that matter, how did Michelle know that Castro’s daughters were looking for captives? She said in the interview that she heard one of Castro’s grandsons call from the top of the basement stairs that people were being held in the basement, but I suppose it’s possible that Castro’s daughters were not at the house to look for captives at all, (although who knows what the grandson was talking about, in that case) and Castro just told Michelle and the other girls later that his daughters had been searching for them just to taunt them.

Which of Castro’s daughters were at the house? (How many daughters does he have anyway?)

In any case, if the daughters were there looking for the captives, they must have felt awful years later to find out that they were right all along. I can’t imagine how frustrating that must have been for the girls, coming so close to being freed and having it snatched away.

_________
JMO

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, CazzBa. Your posts are always interesting =) Unfortunately, we will probably never know the answer.... unless one of the daughters decides to address Michelle's claim.

[modsnip] but I have no idea whether it's true that the girls suspected their father. I *think* it's more likely that Castro was playing mind games with Michelle, as you suggested.

I'm going to rewatch some interviews with Castro's daughters now. For anyone who would like to do the same-- and for those who missed the interviews the first time around-- here you go:

Angie Gregg on CNN (VIDEO)

Emily Castro via WJW (AUDIO)

Arlene Castro on ABC's GMA (VIDEO)



And here is an old interview with Arlene:

Arlene talks about Gina on America's Most Wanted (2004)



Oh, and purely for entertainment purposes, here is Arlene's music video:

Mac Mama (EXPLICIT)

 

[ckia2013]

Sweet new background pic that my partner made for twitter. What do you think? I like it =)

 

[ckia2013]

Michelle receives an award from the Cleveland Police

:jumping:​

 

[ArianeEmory]

Yes, exactly. We thought posting the videos would prompt an interesting discussion, but it hasn't seemed to happen yet =( We need to keep this story alive so that the survivors continue to receive donations.

It will be easier to discuss with the words out there, I think.

We've finished transcribing the second day (I'll post a link soon), but we could still use help with the first day!!

Regarding donations, I've been wondering since you posted this: aren't they already into the million-dollar-plus range in terms of donations (I think they broke 1 mil back in summer), plus the Ohio bill including yearly payments and full college educations, plus whatever media and book deals they line up?

I don't begrudge them a cent of it thus far, but I feel weird about them being promoted simply to solicit ongoing individual donations from the public.

 

[ckia2013]

Regarding donations, I've been wondering since you posted this: aren't they already into the million-dollar-plus range in terms of donations (I think they broke 1 mil back in summer), plus the Ohio bill including yearly payments and full college educations, plus whatever media and book deals they line up?

I don't begrudge them a cent of it thus far, but I feel weird about them being promoted simply to solicit ongoing individual donations from the public.

As of September, the CCF had collected 1.4 million. That's only $350,000 per survivor (which is really not that much). The Ohio bill is just that: a bill. The law has not passed yet. If it does, each girl will receive $25,000 for each year spent in captivity. You're correct regarding the college educations. Hope they take advantage of that offer! And, yes, the Dr. Phil interview and book deal will certainly bring in a ton of money.

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well initially. There are many other reasons to keep this story going. I'd like to believe that the public, in general, is more cognizant regarding missing persons. I've been able to get the word out about a missing girl named Molly Miller. People who follow us on twitter are retweeting our tweets about people that are still missing. Hope this all makes sense. Typing fast here.

 

[ckia2013]

Hey guys, I'm a little bummed that we aren't discussing Michelle's appearance on Dr. Phil more, but there is at least some interesting discussion on YouTube. When I initially posted the links to the full episodes, I linked to my website-- but now I wish I had linked to YouTube, in hopes that you guys would have commented on the videos. Anyway, here are the links to the Dr. Phil episodes on YouTube. Hopefully you guys will want to join the discussion over there! Some of it is tasteless ('cause, well, YouTube is no websleuths!), but try to weed through the crap and get to the good comments. I'd love to see some familiar faces (avatars) over there!

Day 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SirtiD6MAGs
Day 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjR6qlLUU1c

 

[Tawny]

What about the "Grave" Michelle said she was digging in the backyard?!? I sure hope that information is followed up with!

RSBM.

I had the distinct feeling that he had her digging her own grave. It was right before Amanda was set to deliver, IIRC, and I had the feeling that he was about to be done with Michelle and had her dig the grave with the intent to kill her and bury her in it. I don't know why, but that was the impression I got.

A couple of points (IMO, of course) about the relationship between Michelle and Amanda...

Castro seemed to enjoy the psychological abuse as much as the physical/sexual abuse. I am sure he did whatever he could to keep the girls from developing a bond. It sounds like he was not successful with Gina and Michelle, and with Gina and Amanda.

We have no idea what horrors these women lived through in that house. We don't know in what ways Castro might have used them against each other and to hurt each other. We just don't know, but I have the feeling there is a lot of heinous stuff we will never hear, just because it is too painful for any of them to talk about. Amanda may have felt she had no choice but to do hurtful things to Michelle to protect her daughter, if that is what Castro told her to do. Or maybe the fact that Amanda was so compliant just did not sit well with Michelle, who fought her way through captivity and took the brunt of the abuse for it.

Also, Amanda seems to have a completely different personality than Michelle. And there is an age difference. For all we know, they might never have been friends even if they met in some other way.

I have seen many people say they expect the women to have a lifetime bond because of what they endured, but honestly, it would not surprise me if they each decided to go their own way at some point. Sometimes leaving your past behind is your only chance at achieving the future you desire.

Whatever happens, I wish them all of the happiness in the world.

I agree with all of this. I think people *want* the girls to have a lifelong bond because it makes for a quasi-happy-ending. But, they are still human beings and sometimes humans don't like each other for whatever reason, and their situation probably exacerbated that. I got the impression that Michelle is (or at least views herself as) a very strong willed "unbreakable" woman, and maybe Amanda was "weaker" in her eyes. Maybe Amanda was more delicate and she didn't like that quality. Who knows, just tossing thoughts around. Regardless, they aren't required to be besties forever and ever, as nice as it would be to see them get along and become 'sisters'.

From watching the Dr Phil interviews my opinion of another reason of resentment was that Amanda got to have and keep her baby and all of Michelle's babies were killed. Then having to deliver and save the life of that baby. Not Amanda's fault but I could see the feelings being there.

Also this. I can't imagine the pain, resentment, and hate Michelle felt toward Castro (and probably Amanda) for having her babies killed while Amanda got to keep hers. And to have to deliver that baby!? Unfathomable.

 

[MidwesternBelle]

I had the distinct feeling that he had her digging her own grave. It was right before Amanda was set to deliver, IIRC, and I had the feeling that he was about to be done with Michelle and had her dig the grave with the intent to kill her and bury her in it. I don't know why, but that was the impression I got.

Tawny, that is definitely a possibility... My only issue with it is that Amanda's Daugther was born on Christmas Day. I live in Detroit (not to far from Cleveland) and it would be mostly impossible to dig such a grave with the ground as cold as it would be in December. Add snow to the mix and you've got yourself a heck of a job. Not saying that it's totally implausible, but just unlikely due to weather conditions. Plus, IIRC- In the Interview I thought Michelle told Dr. Phil she was digging the grave not long before they were freed?

 

[Tawny]

Tawny, that is definitely a possibility... My only issue with it is that Amanda's Daugther was born on Christmas Day. I live in Detroit (not to far from Cleveland) and it would be mostly impossible to dig such a grave with the ground as cold as it would be in December. Add snow to the mix and you've got yourself a heck of a job. Not saying that it's totally implausible, but just unlikely due to weather conditions. Plus, IIRC- In the Interview I thought Michelle told Dr. Phil she was digging the grave not long before they were freed?

Ah maybe I misunderstood the timeline. I do still believe she was digging her own grave though. She kept saying he hated her, maybe he was ready to be rid of her. We will probably never know for sure.

 

[jjenny]

Castro's daughter was walking home with Gina before Gina was kidnapped. Daughter even appeared on AMW describing how she and Gina were walking to their homes before Gina was kidnapped. Daughter's step father was actually investigated as being potentially involved in Gina's kidnapping. But not Castro. So it doesn't surprise me if Castro's daughters at some point went looking for missing women at Castro's home-wouldn't be that hard to suspect him, would it?
I am surprised police never suspected him. Considering his daughter was the one walking with Gina before Gina went missing. And they investigated her step father but not Castro.
As to how many daughters Castro have-as I recall it's four (including one with Amanda).
One of his daughters is serving time in prison.

 

[CazzBa]

Just read that Sylvia Browne passed away today.

For those who don't recall, she was the psychic who wrongly told Amanda Berry's mother in 2004 that Amanda was dead.
Amanda's mother died in 2006, and after Amanda was found, Sylvia Browne took a lot of criticism for her incorrect "reading" or whatever you want to call it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/psychic-sylvia-browne-dead-77-reports-article-1.1524107

 

[nikb]

Ah maybe I misunderstood the timeline. I do still believe she was digging her own grave though. She kept saying he hated her, maybe he was ready to be rid of her. We will probably never know for sure.

I've wondered whether it was this, or more mental and emotional torture. Michelle seemed to be so protective of the others, it would've been another form of torment to make her think she was digging someone else's grave (similar to how she described helping to set up the chains etc. for Gina's 'torture chamber' - Dr. Phil's words). When I think that was one of her few times getting to be outside... my mind almost can't even process it. Fresh air, smell of grass and dirt, maybe some sort of light (sunlight, moon, street lights?), it was probably kind of a nice change for a minute. Then at some point she must have realized what she was or might be doing. This is ZERO blame against her and I know it was completely and totally against her will, but the mental impact... it's hard to comprehend.

I also wonder if AC would've been so willing to give up the one he apparently didn't mind brutalizing. Sick as it sounds he seemed to particularly enjoy hurting her and have something of a soft spot for Gina and especially Amanda. If he didn't have Michelle anymore, was his violence going to escalate towards the other two? Was he going to find a new victim?

The whole thing is so hard for me to even comprehend.

 

[ckia2013]

There is a new book out about the Cleveland kidnappings.​

You can read a 6 page preview on CKIA (clevelandkidnappings.com)​

PDF password = CKIA
DIRECT LINK TO PDF --> http://www.clevelandkidnappings.com/book%20preview%20CKIA-3.pdf​

 

[Isabelle]

No one should judge what any of the victims says, but should listen and provide support. What is coming out now is the sum of the total psychological experience that is different for each of the victims and cannot possibly be understood by any other one person or persons.

As far as any financial support/gain, the victims need all the support they can get and they are certainly deserving of that.

 

[MsFacetious]

Amanda Berry’s 7-Year-Old Daughter Was Hero In Escape From Ariel Castro’s House Of Horrors

----------------------------

It was little J who discovered that Castro had left their door unlocked, according to a new book, Captive: The Story of the Cleveland Abductions, and then urged her mother to act on the opportunity.

----------------------------

It fell to Berry to make the dramatic bid for freedom because the others were simply too cowed to move. She made the move downstairs with J and began screaming for help.

J gave Berry the courage to violate every rule Castro had set up for the women.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...aughter-hero-of-her-escape-from-ariel-castro/

 

[nikb]

Amanda Berry’s 7-Year-Old Daughter Was Hero In Escape From Ariel Castro’s House Of Horrors

----------------------------

It was little J who discovered that Castro had left their door unlocked, according to a new book, Captive: The Story of the Cleveland Abductions, and then urged her mother to act on the opportunity.

----------------------------

It fell to Berry to make the dramatic bid for freedom because the others were simply too cowed to move. She made the move downstairs with J and began screaming for help.

J gave Berry the courage to violate every rule Castro had set up for the women.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...aughter-hero-of-her-escape-from-ariel-castro/

Thanks for this. This isn't the book Amanda and Gina were working on, is it? From this preview it sounds like the author has quite a bit of info that hasn't been released before. I assume the book from Amanda and Gina will take longer, but I was surprised at the level of detail in this book.