Amanda Knox found guilty for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy #15

[Myvice]

If the jury bases their verdict with the junk DNA being the lynchpin, it would be a strong ground for appeal bc I doubt Italy to humiliate itself by being the nation bases convictions on DNA evidence of the type discredited by the intl community.

If on the other hand the jury bases it verdict on the circumstantial case where you have to essentially imagine AK and RS hopping all around the room to avoid leaving their DNA... Well, ridiculous as the case may be, if they make out a circumstantial case and if they don't rely too much on the DNA, it would be hard to overturn that. the law does not give a legal out for a jury believing a ridiculous circumstantial case.

So do you believe that if the ECHR were to actually take the case and found them guilty that the ECHR would be basing it on ridiculous circumstantial evidence?

 

[otto]

Can you provide me with a source that states Knox's DNA was found mixed with MK's blood in Filomena's room? And not one that is biased?

"It was also said of the traces highlighted by Luminol and of how these very traces, because of the certain presence of blood in abundance in the house and because of the lack of indication, beyond the mere hypotheses made, of substances which could actually have been present and present in various areas, indicate that Amanda (with her feet stained with Meredith’s blood for having been present in her room when she was killed) had gone into Romanelli’s room and into her own *room+ leaving traces [which were] highlighted by Luminol, some of which (one in the corridor, the L8, and one, the L2, in Romanelli’s room) were mixed, that is, constituted of a biological trace attributable to [both] Meredith and Amanda, and others with traces attributable only to Amanda (the three found in her own room and indicated as L3, L4 and L5) and only to the victim (one found in Romanelli’s room, the L1)."

" ... the sample called L2, also from Romanelli's room, yielded a mixed genetic profile of the victim and Knox"

Trial Summary;
http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

 

[Yellow]

I don't think we should start labelling Knox as a child again. By that standard, Guede was also a child, as he and Knox are the same age.

Should Guede be excused for committing murder because he was a "kid" or a "child" like 20 year old, world traveling, University student Knox?

No one is excusing anyone nor is anyone saying young adults even children do not commit murder. The post was a response to someone talking about how they personally know what they did yesterday.

Imo, it is wrong to imply that just because you personally know what you did last night or when you did it, all people know what they did last night. Adults settled in their lives with a routine live a different type of life than a college kid. I think it is wrong to criticize them for not having their schedule down pat, as I would suspect many college kids do not. Indeed, even many adults who are carefree may not keep track of what time they do things.

 

[otto]

Otto, what ever happened with her shoes? Do you know?



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No one knows. Perhaps they're with Guede's shoes.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm gonna start by reading the massei report first....I think I'm gonna do that now...see ya'll in a bit


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[Linda7NJ]

No one is excusing anyone nor is anyone saying young adults even children do not commit murder. The post was a response to someone talking about how they personally know what they did yesterday.



Imo, it is wrong to imply that just because you personally know what you did last night or when you did it, all people know what they did last night. Adults settled in their lives with a routine live a different type of life than a college kid. I think it is wrong to criticize them for not having their schedule down pat, as I would suspect many college kids do not. Indeed, even many adults who are carefree may not keep track of what time they do things.

Ummm I think they would know if they stayed in or went out.

Even my friend that had the alcohol induced blackouts could tell you what she was doing most of the night.
No one claimed to have suffered an alcoholic blackout, or other mild altering substance use. I've never known weed to create blackouts like we are expected to believe from these two.

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[Yellow]

So do you believe that if the ECHR were to actually take the case and found them guilty that the ECHR would be basing it on ridiculous circumstantial evidence?

The ECHR has no jurisdiction to say they are guilty or not. They only have the jurisdiction to say whether or not there is a violation of the constitutional rights under the europeam charter. If there is no constitutional violation, they have no right to rule on the case so if the case is entirely circumstantial there is literally nothing for them to rule on.

The DNA argument is the strongest argument. As well as the use of the interview jointly in the defamation and murder trial. Both of these pose potential constitutional violations that violate human rights. If the jury makes it clear that their verdict is based on the silly circumstantial case and not on the dna at all, there is nothing the ECHR can do. The ECHR cannot retry the case nor will they judge guilty or innocence. The most they can do is find a violation and send it back to Italy for a retrial.

Of course many countries have human rights violations, that is irrelevant here. What is relevant is that the ECHR has found Italy guilty of way more human rights abuses than any other nation in the EU, so Italy gets alot of cases back from them and they do not seem to care. That, to me, speaks of an institutional problem.

 

[ashleigh_schwartz]

You've crossed over to the "dark side"? Or was that sarcasm?


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I honestly do not know what to think anymore, so I guess there is no point. I do not know if Knox will be extradited or if Sollecito will be imprisoned. All I can say is that if they are, I hope they really are guilty and that the Italian court is sure that they murdered Kercher with Guede.

 

[otto]

Have you not read the previous decisions?

I am actually going to go back and read them again..cause it's been a long time and I feel bad that I keep torturing poor Otto.



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Having followed this case for a long time, I remember most of the facts, but I forget some and get some wrong. I do understand that people that haven't followed the case as closely are curious about how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that the verdicts are correct. If I know the answer, I'm happy to contribute. It has always been about justice for Meredith, regardless of where that pursuit led.

I'm sorry to have it confirmed that Knox and Sollecito threw their lives away for a night of misguided mind-altering experimentation. I'm sorry that they didn't have the courage to take the route taken by Guede.

 

[Myvice]

I really don't know much about the ECHR and this is all I could find at the moment. I don't see Italy listed. But like I said, I'm unfamiliar with it.


http://www.todayszaman.com/news-269732-turkey-again-takes-top-spot-in-echr-violations-in-2011.html

 

[otto]

SMK ... was it you that asked a couple of months ago about the blank shape amidst the blood pool in front of the wardrobe ... where there was a blank spot?

Could the pillow have been there? That is where Meredith's head was, as that is where the blood smear can be seen with her hair making a sweep across the floor. Does anyone know where to locate that photo ... the close up of the area in front of the wardrobe?

I'm curious about whether the pillow was in that spot. The pillowcase is a piece of evidence that should have been removed from the room but wasn't. Was it forgotten with the lamp, and only remembered after the keys were thrown away?

 

[Amber29]

SMK ... was it you that asked a couple of months ago about the blank shape amidst the blood pool in front of the wardrobe ... where there was a blank spot?

Could the pillow have been there? That is where Meredith's head was, as that is where the blood smear can be seen with her hair making a sweep across the floor. Does anyone know where to locate that photo ... the close up of the area in front of the wardrobe?

I'm curious about whether the pillow was in that spot. The pillowcase is a piece of evidence that should have been removed from the room but wasn't. Was it forgotten with the lamp, and only remembered after the keys were thrown away?

It was me who asked about it, it still makes me wonder every time I look at the pics.

You can see it in the pmf gallery.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1329

 

[aa9511]

I was always struck by the fact that the police allowed Guede to Skype with a family member and they recorded that video session. In that session, he stated that Knox and Sollecito were not there and were not involved at all. Then the police began to offer him deals and his story changed.

Coupled with the fact that they tested Sollecito's kitchen knife again and did not find Meredith's DNA on it, I just cannot side with the people who proclaim that Sollecito and Knox are guilty for certain. The Italian police had searched Sollecito's apartment 4 days after the murder. They said the apartment seemed unusually clean (the maid had cleaned it). The policeman went to a kitchen drawer and took out exactly one knife. This knife was tested and a tiny amount of Meredith's DNA was found on it, although it was not derived from blood. On repeat testings, they did not find this DNA.

So if we are to believe that was the murder weapon, Sollecito took his kitchen knife to Meredith's apartment (for some reason), then it was used to kill Meredith along with other weapons wielded by Knox and Guede, then Sollecito took the knife all the way back to his home (rather than ditching it), cleaned the knife and his apartment with bleach but missed some DNA on the knife, and then finally threw the murder weapon in with his other household utensils.

I do not understand how anyone could believe this nonsense.

The "selectively removing DNA evidence" argument is absurd and literally impossible. The other argument that Knox and Sollecito are guilty because the police could not possibly search every inch of the crime scene is even more absurd and legally dangerous.

Yes, those judges and jury are just such incredibly dumb people.

 

[sherlockh]

I really don't know much about the ECHR and this is all I could find at the moment. I don't see Italy listed. But like I said, I'm unfamiliar with it.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-269732-turkey-again-takes-top-spot-in-echr-violations-in-2011.html

Here is a link to get an idea about the percentage of cases they throw out.
http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2013/0...man-rights-struck-out-99-of-uk-cases-in-2012/

 

[Amber29]

I didn't note the sarcasm. I thought you were being serious because you seem hellbent on them being Amanda's despite no proof. There isn't even DNA that places Knox and Sollecito in the hallway, but there is for Rudy.

This was said multiple times without being corrected so here's a quote from Massei. One of the luminol prints in the corridor tested positive AK/MK mix DNA sample.

From p380 of the link Otto provided of Massei report

Amanda (with her feet stained with Meredith’s blood for having been present in her room when she was killed) had gone into Romanelli’s room and into her own *room+ leaving traces [which were] highlighted by Luminol, some of which (one in the corridor, the L8, and one, the L2, in Romanelli’s room) were mixed, that is, constituted of a biological trace attributable to [both] Meredith and Amanda, and others with traces attributable only to Amanda (the three found in her own room and indicated as L3, L4 and L5) and only to the victim (one found in Romanelli’s room, the L1).

 

[Jessica2012]

Here is a link to get an idea about the percentage of cases they throw out.
http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2013/0...man-rights-struck-out-99-of-uk-cases-in-2012/

"ECHR hears only allegations of human rights abuses, which must be reported within six months of the alleged incident (or within six months after all local avenues have been exhausted."
(Truejustice.org)

 

[pufnstuf]

I've got to say, the tags on this thread are disgraceful, regardless of your views on this case.

 

[Amber29]

I've got to say, the tags on this thread are disgraceful, regardless of your views on this case.

Embarrassed to have to ask.. But I don't know where the tags come from and what they are for. I'm sorry, if someone doesn't mind explaining, I'd appreciate it. Tia

 

[Myvice]

Embarrassed to have to ask.. But I don't know where the tags come from and what they are for. I'm sorry, if someone doesn't mind explaining, I'd appreciate it. Tia

I'd be interested in knowing too.:blushing:

 

[sherlockh]

This was said multiple times without being corrected so here's a quote from Massei. One of the luminol prints in the corridor tested positive AK/MK mix DNA sample.

From p380 of the link Otto provided of Massei report

Amanda (with her feet stained with Meredith’s blood for having been present in her room when she was killed) had gone into Romanelli’s room and into her own *room+ leaving traces [which were] highlighted by Luminol, some of which (one in the corridor, the L8, and one, the L2, in Romanelli’s room) were mixed, that is, constituted of a biological trace attributable to [both] Meredith and Amanda, and others with traces attributable only to Amanda (the three found in her own room and indicated as L3, L4 and L5) and only to the victim (one found in Romanelli’s room, the L1).

This was said multiple times without being corrected so here's a quote from Massei. One of the luminol prints in the corridor tested positive AK/MK mix DNA sample.

From p380 of the link Otto provided of Massei report

Amanda (with her feet stained with Meredith’s blood for having been present in her room when she was killed) had gone into Romanelli’s room and into her own *room+ leaving traces [which were] highlighted by Luminol, some of which (one in the corridor, the L8, and one, the L2, in Romanelli’s room) were mixed, that is, constituted of a biological trace attributable to [both] Meredith and Amanda, and others with traces attributable only to Amanda (the three found in her own room and indicated as L3, L4 and L5) and only to the victim (one found in Romanelli’s room, the L1).

As well as the statement 'no blood on the knife'. BBM.

Massei report:
At the scratch location, the presence of human blood was searched for, with negative results. ‚The test is negative,‛ said Dr Stefanoni, ‚though, given the presence of DNA in very, very low quantity, it cannot be excluded, however, that there could have been blood, but it was not in a sufficient amount to show up even with a very sensitive instrument, such as the one we normally use for this test‛ (page 256).

I think it is interesting to note the part 'given the low quantity of DNA', because this is exactly what happened with the Luminol prints where some did not reveal any DNA so it is not so strange that a less sensitive TMB test would be negative. JMO.