Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

[Footwarrior]

I'm not kidding at all. Sollecito owned the apt and Knox was a guest. If water was spilled or leaked, and a mop was needed to clean it up, then there must have been a substantial water mess. It's beyond me to understand two adults simply ignoring a mess of water on the kitchen floor for 16 hours.

When a sink full of dirty dishes leaks, it puts more than water on the floor. According to Raffaele, the water was soaked up with towels after the spill. A mop is an appropriate tool for cleaning a floor properly after such a spill.

It is rather pointless to argue about sinks and mops. The mop is an issue only because of the claim that the crime scene was cleaned. But there is zero evidence of a clean up and tests for blood residue on the mop were negative.

 

[Frankie Hellis]

I'm not kidding at all. Sollecito owned the apt and Knox was a guest. If water was spilled or leaked, and a mop was needed to clean it up, then there must have been a substantial water mess. It's beyond me to understand two adults simply ignoring a mess of water on the kitchen floor for 16 hours.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on this then. I think reality is that most 20-ish kids don't care about water on the floor. Some do, many don't. Especially when they can go into the bedroom and...

(ignore it and hope it will dry up.)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Do you have a link for the judge's conclusions regarding the facts surrounding the calls to the bank?

Link here. "Otherwise, we could have found in the cell phone the record of the number 901, dialed at 9:58 pm but not actually the one of the bank, dialed at 10:00 pm; this allows us to reasonably hypothesize that it was another person, not accustomed to that cell phone, to dial that number, more precisely to dial the first name in the contact list, to which it was associated, perhaps in an attempt to turn off the cell phone, rather than to use it. As for the last recorded traffic registration, the one at 10:13 pm, it has already been noted that it could have been an incoming MMS, not needing any human interaction, or an attempt to access the INTERNET, likewise done by mistake presumably by someone who, unaccustomed to that cell phone, had somehow gained possession of it."

 

[Malkmus]

It would certainly go a long way towards making it impossible for them to be at the cottage murdering Meredith, since the call from Meredith's father around midnight caps off the time line for the murder.

The question was whether, in your mind, it would it give them an alibi. It's a yes or no question. Alibi's don't just "go a long way" towards innocence. In this case, it would exonerate them completely.

Regarding the skepticism surrounding the justice system in Italy, I am very curious about the answer to this question:
If the US supreme court makes a ruling, is it normal to assume that there is no justifiable reason to trust that ruling?

Not sure what this is in reference to. If it's about the SC ruling about Guede acting with multiple people then you've heard my opinion before that I think it was a mistake to try him separately. Now they have a mess on their hands. To directly answer your question about the US you'll have to give more context or at least an example of a US ruling as an example.

That is, is there skepticism about all justice systems, or only the Italian justice system as it pertains to a woman from the United States?

Are you referring to the ones who think that a massive conspiracy took place in which the judge, jury and independent experts were paid off to get the two lovebirds off? You'll have to put this in more context as your question doesn't relate to my post, therefore I don't know how to respond.

How many court cases in the US have heard arguments that blood evidence might be fruit juice, so foot prints from a bloody scene to a bedroom should be ignored?

Fruit juice? No idea. In this case it was argued to be bleach residue from the shower.

 

[Malkmus]

There's another one of those very unusual excuses:

she was a univesity student --> there can be no reasonable expectation that university students clean up a large water spill on the kitchen floor in less than 16 hours

That strikes me as bizarre. Should we assume that no young adults know to clean up a water spill as soon as it happens, that only university students are too dumb to figure this out, that people that do not attend university are able to figure this out, that only after young adults have completed a university degree are they able to understand that water on the floor needs to be cleaned up immediately, that adults only figure this out after they slip and fall, that adults only figure this out after they have children of their own?

What exactly is a university student? I'm very curious about this, since many excuses are offerred to Knox because she is a university student ... sort of like ... we should expect nothing from this woman because she attended university.

First of all, Otto, I wasn't kidding when I suggested you make your argument that twenty-year old college students would never leave a mess of water on the floor over night to someone in the real world. My guess is their jaws won't drop in incredulity at the thought of them leaving it there.

I've shared past anecdotes on here from life of messy roommates who've left disgusting messes after a night of drinking for others to clean up. It's not unusual, Otto.

Second, you need to flesh out your theory regarding the sink. What is your theory exactly? It's not enough to say it's strange.

Are you implying that the sink never leaked water? If so, how does Dr. Sollecito's phone call fit into that? If Dr. Sollecito lied about the sink leaking, why didn't he lie about them eating dinner in order to, as you say, give them an alibi?

Are you implying that they made up the leaking sink story to justify transporting a mop from Amanda's? If so, you need to explain how that fits into any of the known evidence. Because, as it is, it doesn't fit.

Please explain the sink "mystery" beyond saying it's strange.

 

[Malkmus]

It seems to me that there was at least a one hour delay while everyone waited for the translator to arrive.(snip)

Incorrect. The questioning of Amanda had already been moved to an interrogation room and questioning continued up until the point that Donnino arrived.

Of course, if you have an actual citation to disprove this, please present it. It doesn't exist though.

 

[otto]

Incorrect. The questioning of Amanda had already been moved to an interrogation room and questioning continued up until the point that Donnino arrived.

Of course, if you have an actual citation to disprove this, please present it. It doesn't exist though.

What sort of questioning could be done with a woman that didn't speak more than a word or two of Italian?

 

[otto]

First of all, Otto, I wasn't kidding when I suggested you make your argument that twenty-year old college students would never leave a mess of water on the floor over night to someone in the real world. My guess is their jaws won't drop in incredulity at the thought of them leaving it there.

I've shared past anecdotes on here from life of messy roommates who've left disgusting messes after a night of drinking for others to clean up. It's not unusual, Otto.

Second, you need to flesh out your theory regarding the sink. What is your theory exactly? It's not enough to say it's strange.

Are you implying that the sink never leaked water? If so, how does Dr. Sollecito's phone call fit into that? If Dr. Sollecito lied about the sink leaking, why didn't he lie about them eating dinner in order to, as you say, give them an alibi?

Are you implying that they made up the leaking sink story to justify transporting a mop from Amanda's? If so, you need to explain how that fits into any of the known evidence. Because, as it is, it doesn't fit.

Please explain the sink "mystery" beyond saying it's strange.

I don't know of any adults that have a water leak in their own home and then leave it there for 16 hours. I think that is absurd.

I think it's completely ridiculous ... but it does provide an excuse for Knox to return to the cottage in the morning (rather than going on their field trip to the festival) to check the scene ... I mean pick up the mop ... return to Sollecitos to eat lunch and delay ... I mean ... mop the floor. I suspect that the leak was completely cleaned up when it happened.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

How many court cases in the US have heard arguments that blood evidence might be fruit juice, so foot prints from a bloody scene to a bedroom should be ignored?

The Gregory Taylor case in North Carolina hinged on a presumptive blood test. "What was not disclosed at Taylor’s trial was that SBI Deaver had provided only the positive results from a presumptive test for blood, known as a phenolphthalein test. He withheld from his official laboratory report the fact that he performed a confirmatory test (called Takayama test) on the two stains which returned negative results for both substances. The negative Takayama results indicated that he could determine with any degree of scientific certainty the suspected stains were, in fact, blood. In addition, Deaver performed a third test on one of the suspected stains, a species origin determination test (called the Ouchterlony test), designed to determine if the stain was human blood. He received a negative reaction on that test as well and withheld that information from the official report."

The Swecker-Wolf report might be the most in-depth discussion of the problems at the SBI's laboratory, but the Raleigh News and Observer had a thorough series of articles on this laboratory, some of which dealt specifically with the Taylor case. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to show that blood is present, yet prosecutors around the world want to pretend that a presumptive test is all one needs and a negative confirmatory test is meaningless. Moreover, turning over possibly exculpatory information is a statutory expectation in the U.S. and Italy (the usual disclaimers apply).

 

[Malkmus]

What sort of questioning could be done with a woman that didn't speak more than a word or two of Italian?

Enough to give them a list of the men who had visited the cottage, including one whom she didn't know by name. He later turned out to be Rudy.

 

[Malkmus]

I don't know of any adults that have a water leak in their own home and then leave it there for 16 hours. I think that is absurd.

You know a lot of people who don't procrastinate. Great, but it's irrelevant to the two people you don't know.

I think it's completely ridiculous ... but it does provide an excuse for Knox to return to the cottage in the morning (rather than going on their field trip to the festival) to check the scene ... I mean pick up the mop ... return to Sollecitos to eat lunch and delay ... I mean ... mop the floor. I suspect that the leak was completely cleaned up when it happened.

That's some plan, then. So they knew at 8:30 the night before that they were going to kill Meredith, but knew ahead of time that they would need an excuse to come back the next morning to "check the scene"? That's why they fabricated a story about a leaking sink to Raf's dad that night?

And how does checking the scene fit into this diabolical plan of theirs? Going to Gubbio was the best thing they could have done if they were guilty.

 

[MichaelSmith]

The supreme court didn't say multiple attackers. It's another myth spread by Vogt and Follain and picked up by others.

Here's the original Italian.

http://www.penalecontemporaneo.it/upload/Cass 7195-2011 RHG.pdf

Page 15

In the meantime it is now necessary to escape the attempt, pursued by the overall setting of
the defence, but out of place in the context of this decision, to involve the Court in supporting
the thesis of the responsibility of others, namely Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, for the
murder aggravated by the sexual assault of Meredith Kercher. The decision to which this
court is called concerns uniquely the responsibility of Guede regarding the deed with which
he is charged, and the possible participation of others in the crime should be taken into
account only to the extent to which such a circumstance would have an impact on the
exclusive commitment of the Court to either modifying or confirming the verdict of guilt of
the defendant, which was entirely shared by the courts of first and second instance.

Or a different transation of the same report.

"[R]ight from the outset we must resist the attempt -- reflected in [literally "pursued by"] the entire structure of the defense case, but out of place in the context of this decision -- to involve the [Cassazione] panel in endorsing the hypothesis that others, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, were responsible for the murder, aggravated by sexual violence, of Meredith Kercher. The decision that this Court is called to make concerns only the responsibility of Guede with regard to the act under dispute; any participation of others in the crime will be taken into account only to the extent that this circumstance bears on the matter that is our only concern: the modification or confirmation of the judgement of responsibility of the defendant -- the latter being wholly agreed upon by the judges of the first and second level."

 

[Malkmus]

I may not be inclined to believe the fragmented arguments about Knox being sooooooooo tired that she had no choice but to falsely accuse an innocent man of murder, that she had no place to sleep because Sollecito had an appointment, or that she was coerced into lying after one hour of police tactics that were filtered through a translator, but that's because I have followed the case for the last 5 years.

Surely you're not asking why investigators did not continue to question Knox after she became a suspect ... we all know the answer is that she had to wait until morning to hire a lawyer, and then she could answer more questions.

Knox WAS NOT given a lawyer during any point of the interrogation and and there was no hiring of a lawyer followed by more questioning as you stated. They were not even allowed to meet their lawyers until the first hearing.

From Il Messaggero (Italian newspaper):

"The magistrate who coordinates the police investigation has prohibited the meeting between the suspects and their lawyers until the moment when the three appear before a judge.”

I believe that police did not record all the witness statements ... we know that's true.

Mignini: "I recorded the declarations of her roommates and of the witnesses. But that night, we were at the police station, there was agitation, and we had to go and arrest Lumumba, who had just been accused by Amanda."

After two suspects were arrested, police used every method legally available to them to obtain more information ... including recording discussions between Knox and her mother in prison.

The recorded phone call where they took "I was there" out of context to make it sound like she said she was at the cottage that night? If that doesn't make you skeptical of the Perugian police then I don't know what would.
Do you know that some of that information obtained to secure their arrest was to bring a witness to declare that Patrick's bar was in fact closed that night?

 

[Malkmus]

Yes, it does.

Knox told police that more than one person was involved in the murder.

Wrong. Who were these other people she claimed to be involved in the murder?

In her scenario, she was in the kitchen with her fingers stuck in her ears while someone was murdering Meredith in her bedroom. She didn't run for help, she merely waited until they were done, and then ran out behind them.The evidence indicated that more than one person was involved in the murder. That information was not available prior to the forensic results ... but Knox was quite right ... and as she did the bath matt shuffle ... there was evidence of smearing or cleaning at the cottage ... or were those fruit juice footprints from the bloody bathroom to the bedroom? What did she do ... dump some grapefruit juice in the bloody floor, walk in it to her bedroom and forget to mention this?

Bleach. The defense argued it was bleach residue.

And what was all that about trying to break down the bedroom door, running around the cottage and then calling someone else to finish breaking down the door ... that's convoluted

Trying to break the door down and calling other people, including the police is convoluted? Sounds pretty simple to me.

... as is showering in an unoccupied house where the front door was left wide open ... then going to Sollecitos apt to call Filomina and mop the floor when everything is all wrong.

The mop was before coming back to call Filomena. Unfortunately for your argument about all this stuff you find convoluted and "bizarre", you are unable to explain how any of it fits into their diabolical plan to murder Meredith.

I suspect that the other people that were there that day, and Meredith's British friends/family, still believe that Knox is guilty. That is, those most familiar with the case most likely still believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in the murder.

John Kercher believes such tabloid lies as receipts for bleach bought after the murder. I feel sorry that he is so misinformed and I blame his lawyer who was not seeking justice, but money.

Knox also stated that Meredith "f-ing bled to death". Right again. Meredith had more than 40 wounds, some of which indicated two separate blades.

Everyone at the scene knew she bled to death from all the blood on the floor when the door was kicked in. Even if Knox was down the hall when this happened, their friends who saw inside and gave them a ride to the station discussed this with them.

You gotta love the letter she wrote home ... what a classic ... come to think of it, maybe it's easy to understand why she is having difficulties writing an autobiography about the facts surrounding her relationship with Meredith Kercher.

Now you're making up things about her "having difficulty writing" her story? Got a cite?

We've seen that article referencing Patrick many times on this website. Each time, upon closer inspection, it is clear that Patrick denies giving that statement to the UK ragmag.

Knox appears to have known too much about the murder ... too soon.

Patrick has never denied the interview and hasn't taken recourse for printing a lie that could have gotten him sued like Amanda was. Simply changing his story to be that he wasn't harmed is very telling.

 

[Malkmus]

WHAT information specifically lead the court to conclude that Guede did not commit this crime alone?

I would refer you to the reports written by the judge.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The evidence indicated that more than one person was involved in the murder. That information was not available prior to the forensic results ... but Knox was quite right ... and as she did the bath matt shuffle ... there was evidence of smearing or cleaning at the cottage ... or were those fruit juice footprints from the bloody bathroom to the bedroom? What did she do ... dump some grapefruit juice in the bloody floor, walk in it to her bedroom and forget to mention this?

SNIP

Knox also stated that Meredith "f-ing bled to death". Right again. Meredith had more than 40 wounds, some of which indicated two separate blades.

With respect to the luminol-positive footprints, do you believe that Amanda made Rep. 180? Why or why not? With respect to Meredith's wounds, one of them could have been made by any sharp knife, including the knife that made that other two wounds (and that knife was smaller than Sollecito's starchy kitchen knife). Only those who believe in some version of Mignini-Massei's story have to invoke two knives.

 

[Allusonz]

How do Meredith's physical health, and temperature in the cottage, factor into the time of death per stomach contents? How does the amount of alcohol consumed by Meredith, less than 24 hours prior to death, factor into the time of death? These factors cannot be ignored.

Stomach contents as a determinant for time of death is unreliable for many reasons ... mostly because there are so many other factors that influence digestion.

Do you have a link for the judge's conclusions regarding the facts surrounding the calls to the bank?

I have stated many times throughout this case that science does not recognize international boundaries, nor does it recognize the colour of one's skin, the language one speaks, nor the colour of your hair, eyes, et al.

We know from the testimony of Ms. Popovic that AK was acting normal at 8:40pm when Ms. Popovic went to RS's apartment.

We as well know that the Naruto cartoon started at 21:26 as evidenced through the forensic evaluation of the computer hard drive and was closed at 21:49.

MK's British friends, Robyn Butterworth, Amy Frost, and Sophie Purton testified when the meal started, as well as what the meal consisted of. NO ALCOHOL was consumed, and they watched a movie which actually increases the digestive rate.

Digestion begins with the first mouthful of food NOT the last mouthful as many have tried to traverse this route as well.

Dr. Lalli videotaped the autopsy, which showed the duodenum ligatures were applied properly to prevent slippage of the stomach contents. It was also noted that there was NO abnormal pathology.

The court viewed this film during the hearing of 30.11.2009, as evidenced through Raffaele's appeal page 165 and confirmed the proper ligature application.

MK had 500ml of stomach contents, consistent with a moderate meal of pizza/apple crumble, combined with a completely empty duodenum. The stomach had not even started to empty.

The relevant time comparison would be the T(lag), being the time that the stomach contents start to empty into the duodenum, which would be 2 - 3 hours. This was stated not only through testimony but as well can be referenced in the Micheli report. NOTE: This is not the same as complete gastric emptying which many try to cite thus please let's not traverse that route once again.

Based on the scientific and medical evidence, Meredith Kercher was murdered between 9:00 pm. and at the latest 9:30 pm. This is putting the T(lag) time in the 75th percentile and makes the prosecution's theory of a drug fuelled, satanic sex orgy by AK and RS absurd. The prosecution's TOD is impossible.

This is the condensed version. If I must I will post the long version.

 

[Allusonz]

IIRC there were receipts showing that there had been issues with the sink leaking on a previous occassion.

I believe it is in the testimony.

 

[Allusonz]

How does a discussion about a phone message go to accusations of murder against an innocent man in under an hour ... all the while working with a translator ... meaning everything has to be said twice?

A good place to start would be the ruling made by the Italian Supreme Court re: AK's rights.

I am still trying to figure out how she was only interrogated for 1 hour.

My recollection is that she was on the phone with FR at 10:40pm when she was summoned by PLE. It is as well my recollection that she did not leave the room till 5:45an.

My math tells me that is much longer than an hour.

 

[Malkmus]

Great article from the Italian newspaper editor for the Umbria Journal, again confirming that the police suspected and planned to arrest Amanda and Raf by the the night of the November 5th. A reminder, this was before any forensic evidence was in. Why is this important? Because it dispels a long-standing talking point that the two were not suspects and the police were taken by surprise when they broke each other's alibi.

(Google translation)

"The first turning point came on 4 November. Well Francesca and Luca Fiorucci come to the office with the news, received from sources close to the investigation, that "Meredith knew his killers." The two reporters of the Journal Umbria, in the afternoon session was completed, the investigators say they do not see clearly the role of Amanda and Raffaele. Half news,
rumors, but qualified. Fois meanwhile piantona the area of ​​mad Grimana
in search of evidence. The next day we go out with the title "Meredith knew who killed her." Let's take into account that the investigation relied on a North African (the indiscretion can
have been leaked on purpose to mislead the investigators, or it was
of confusion on the nationality of Lumumba). Along the same lines the evening news on local television and other newspapers with editorial offices in Umbria
(Courier Umbria, The Nation, The Messenger). The impression is that the
circle is tightening. Arrests are expected. Meanwhile wrecked any attempt to interview Amanda and Raffaele."

http://www.archiviopenale.it/joomla/images/stories/dossier/2012_albertario_castellini.pdf

I particularly find interesting that the police had apparently warned the press not to interview Amanda and Raf, as their arrests were imminent (if I'm reading that correctly).