Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

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Naruto was tossed by Sollecito himself so we will never hear of that again.

The appeal court is very dishonest when they say that Rudy said he is in the cottage between 9-9:30pm. Rudy said Meredith arrived at 8:30pm so he is off by half an hour. He basically states that Meredith was killed after an hour which would be 10pm. Rudy of course is lying as he minimizes the length of the attack so (based on his words) TOD must have been some time after 10pm.

The stomach contents theory was tossed by both the first and the appeal court (and a whole series of experts in the first trial) so I doubt we will ever hear of that again either. Meredith drank something like a glass of wine and had a mushroom with it after arriving at the cottage so that shows that her stomach was just normal after 9pm. After that the stress of her fight with Amanda and certainly the stress of the attack with knives would have completely halted the stomach emptying. This is why the stomach theory is useless. You can't distinguish between death and stress. The current TOD that is on the table is 10:15pm. It is still part of the Galati appeal because as usual the appeal court is completely illogical and does not explain anything JMO.
Time of death of Meredith Kercher. – [3] deficiency or manifest illogicality of the reasoning in contrast to the other court documents of the case. [Article 606 paragraph 1(e) Criminal Procedure Code]
 
Naruto was tossed by Sollecito himself so we will never hear of that again.

If by "tossed" you mean he doesn't mention it in his book that doesn't get rid of the fact that it happened. The log shows he started the file at 9:26.

The appeal court is very dishonest when they say that Rudy said he is in the cottage between 9-9:30pm. Rudy said Meredith arrived at 8:30pm so he is off by half an hour. He basically states that Meredith was killed after an hour which would be 10pm. Rudy of course is lying as he minimizes the length of the attack so (based on his words) TOD must have been some time after 10pm.


How exactly was the court dishonest when all they did was use Rudy's own statements that he arrived at the cottage around 8:30 and left at 9:30? Since Meredith arrived shortly after 9 that would place him inside the cottage between 9 and 9:30. What would he have to gain by "minimizing" the length of the attack?

The stomach contents theory was tossed by both the first and the appeal court (and a whole series of experts in the first trial) so I doubt we will ever hear of that again either. Meredith drank something like a glass of wine and had a mushroom with it after arriving at the cottage so that shows that her stomach was just normal after 9pm. After that the stress of her fight with Amanda and certainly the stress of the attack with knives would have completely halted the stomach emptying. This is why the stomach theory is useless. You can't distinguish between death and stress. The current TOD that is on the table is 10:15pm. It is still part of the Galati appeal because as usual the appeal court is completely illogical and does not explain anything JMO.

So she was attacked for an hour? What was the scenario? How do all three defendants fit into it? How did Raffaele activate the Naruto file during this?

Time of death of Meredith Kercher. – [3] deficiency or manifest illogicality of the reasoning in contrast to the other court documents of the case. [Article 606 paragraph 1(e) Criminal Procedure Code]

The quote from the Galati appeal tells us absolutely nothing as to why they think it's illogical. Nor should it have anything to do with stomach contents since that wasn't part of Hellman's ruling.
 
There is no reason to believe that Meredith drank a glass of wine. The problem with the autopsy is that it did not collect data on vitreous or bladder levels of alcohol. Those are the best places to look post-mortem. The mushroom is just dubious speculation (it was more likely to have been apple from the dessert). One problem with the first trial is that Mignini changed the TOD to after 11:30 in his closing remarks. If the experts had been asked to testify on whether that were likely, I suspect they would have dismissed it. Massei himself seems to be unable to distinguish between t(lag) and t(1/2); therefore, his analysis is unhelpful.

I am not sure what you mean by a "stomach contents theory." Moreover, you have failed to address the fact that for 150 or more minutes, the conditions for digestion were perfectly calm. Some of the pro-innocence commenters have written extensively about something that might be called a "lack of contents theory in the duodenum" theory. Hellmann correctly interpreted the cell phone data, and once one does that, the duodenum issue becomes merely additional evidence that the TOD was far earlier than Massei's interpretation.
 
If by "tossed" you mean he doesn't mention it in his book that doesn't get rid of the fact that it happened. The log shows he started the file at 9:26.
Oh please. He still doesn't remember after 5 years? Some marijuana that was!
How exactly was the court dishonest when all they did was use Rudy's own statements that he arrived at the cottage around 8:30 and left at 9:30? Since Meredith arrived shortly after 9 that would place him inside the cottage between 9 and 9:30. What would he have to gain by "minimizing" the length of the attack?
Nowhere does the Appeal Court explain or even mention that Rudy was off by half an hour which would have put his 9:30 to 10pm. Rudy minimizes the length of the attack so he could make up the story of being on the toilet and not noticing anything until 5 minutes later.
So she was attacked for an hour? What was the scenario? How do all three defendants fit into it? How did Raffaele activate the Naruto file during this?
Where you get she was attacked for an hour? How should I know when the attack started? There was fighting between Meredith and Amanda as soon as Amanda entered the apartment, but of course we only have Rudy's word for it. In Amanda's own words, she arrived at 9pm and so did Rudy and so did Meredith. Raffaele could have followed a little later, or Amanda could have picked him up because she got into a fight with Meredith and wanted revenge. Anything is possible. They all just lived minutes walking distance apart anyway.
The quote from the Galati appeal tells us absolutely nothing as to why they think it's illogical. Nor should it have anything to do with stomach contents since that wasn't part of Hellman's ruling.
Exactly, it is the 10:15 TOD that is being appealed. So why keep repeating some internet theory about TOD based on stomach contents that has been debunked over and over and is not even on the table anymore?
 
Haha..a whole box? You are joking right? It is very simple. Show the luminol footprints of Meredith, Filomena and Laura. In the small bathroom, in the kitchen and in the large bathroom. Then of course this was bleach. There was nothing in the other bathroom, nothing in the kitchen, nothing of any of those 3 girls, so then what? A box full of bleach was only used for a few spots in front of the murder room? The luminol prints were literally surrounded by blood spots. There simply is no alternative for anything other then blood, and the expert identified the luminol glow as coming from a reaction from luminol with blood. So even it is not definite blood evidence, it still is luminol evidence that was most likely blood and it is legally allowed to be used as such.
 
There is no reason to believe that Meredith drank a glass of wine. The problem with the autopsy is that it did not collect data on vitreous or bladder levels of alcohol. Those are the best places to look post-mortem. The mushroom is just dubious speculation (it was more likely to have been apple from the dessert). One problem with the first trial is that Mignini changed the TOD to after 11:30 in his closing remarks. If the experts had been asked to testify on whether that were likely, I suspect they would have dismissed it. Massei himself seems to be unable to distinguish between t(lag) and t(1/2); therefore, his analysis is unhelpful.

I am not sure what you mean by a "stomach contents theory." Moreover, you have failed to address the fact that for 150 or more minutes, the conditions for digestion were perfectly calm. Some of the pro-innocence commenters have written extensively about something that might be called a "lack of contents theory in the duodenum" theory. Hellmann correctly interpreted the cell phone data, and once one does that, the duodenum issue becomes merely additional evidence that the TOD was far earlier than Massei's interpretation.
Yes, there is reason. All described in the Massei report and findings by the coroner dr Lalli. A mushroom and a percentage of alcohol similar to the amount found in a glass of wine or beer. Meredith did not have any mushrooms and alcohol with her friends so she must have had a snack and a drink after she arrived at home. This shows that after 9pm her stomach not being empty was completely normal. And as any athlete knows, stress can completely halt it after that. There was trouble in the cottage that night. Trouble between Amanda\Rudy (and Rafaelle but possible later) and Meredith.

A TOD of 10:15pm is not that far earlier than 11:30pm. Take the middle of these timings and you get the TOD the coroner calculated which was 10:50pm.
 
Oh please. He still doesn't remember after 5 years? Some marijuana that was!

Who said he forgot it? Why are you evading the Naruto file so much? Because it collapses your whole theory that they were at the cottage from 9 to 10:30?

Nowhere does the Appeal Court explain or even mention that Rudy was off by half an hour which would have put his 9:30 to 10pm. Rudy minimizes the length of the attack so he could make up the story of being on the toilet and not noticing anything until 5 minutes later.

He wasn't off by a half hour. That's a pet theory of yours which you haven't bothered to explain. Rudy places himself at the cottage at 8:30. Meredith arrived at 9 and she walked in on him. He says himself he was out of there by 9:30. So please, again, explain how the appeal court was being so "dishonest".

Where you get she was attacked for an hour? How should I know when the attack started?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't think you were actually implying that arguing with one's roommate for an hour would completely halt one's digestive system. Therefore, something as stressful as being tortured for an hour seemed like the only plausible reason.

There was fighting between Meredith and Amanda as soon as Amanda entered the apartment, but of course we only have Rudy's word for it. In Amanda's own words, she arrived at 9pm and so did Rudy and so did Meredith. Raffaele could have followed a little later, or Amanda could have picked him up because she got into a fight with Meredith and wanted revenge. Anything is possible. They all just lived minutes walking distance apart anyway.

You keep avoiding my questions. If you don't have answers, just say so. Again:

What was the scenario in which Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele all arrive at the cottage at 9 pm, and subsequently all agree to help each other rape and kill Meredith? Who activated the Naruto file at 9:26? How did Curatolo see them in the piazza from 9:30 to midnight??

Exactly, it is the 10:15 TOD that is being appealed. So why keep repeating some internet theory about TOD based on stomach contents that has been debunked over and over and is not even on the table anymore?

But "internet theories" such as Amanda bleeding from getting hit during the murder are fine? By the way, it isn't really an internet theory if it was actually used in the trial.
 
Haha..a whole box? You are joking right?

What's the joke? You asked for evidence of bleach. But you are correct in that actual bleach bottles aren't necessary since it was argued to be residue from bathroom cleaners, the majority of which contain bleach.

It is very simple. Show the luminol footprints of Meredith, Filomena and Laura. In the small bathroom, in the kitchen and in the large bathroom. Then of course this was bleach. There was nothing in the other bathroom, nothing in the kitchen, nothing of any of those 3 girls, so then what?

Here's a print that doesn't match Amanda:



A box full of bleach was only used for a few spots in front of the murder room? The luminol prints were literally surrounded by blood spots. There simply is no alternative for anything other then blood, and the expert identified the luminol glow as coming from a reaction from luminol with blood. So even it is not definite blood evidence, it still is luminol evidence that was most likely blood and it is legally allowed to be used as such.

Still waiting for you to explain the "blood" spots lit up by luminol on the CSI team's booties, rulers and in the crevices around the tiles.
 
Okay, Sherlock, I did a little perusing through old posts to find your theory which I remember you stating before and found this:

Originally Posted by sherlockh
RS, knife, possibly drugs, 'plan of attack' only come into play after AK returns to his apartment. AK probably just went for a change of clothes (I believe that they were supposed to go on a trip the next day?). RS didn't really have a reason to go with her at first. It is just a 5 minute walk and he was on his computer. AK returns at about 9:30pm. After this time, suddenly no more interaction on the computer and both of them are spotted at the basketball court by a witness. I suspect they sent RG away to do some drug shopping.

I do think AK brought the knife to scare the crap out of her roommate after that fight. I don't know exactly what the plan was and why. I do think they thought it was 'funny'. Like AK said: 'we were drunk and wanted to have some fun'. I don't think it changes the dynamics all that much. And finally, I don't think the murder was intended.

All just my theory.

Not only is the timeline very different from what you're theorizing now, but you ironically had no problem with the computer activity around 9:30 when your theory was different, you have them "Sending" Rudy to go "drug shopping", and the basis of their motive centered around a bogus quote created by the tabloids. I'm really interested to hear you reconcile your past and current theories.
 
Who said he forgot it? Why are you evading the Naruto file so much? Because it collapses your whole theory that they were at the cottage from 9 to 10:30?
If he didn't forget it he left it out on purpose? Seriously? I am not the one who is evading it. I am just pointing out that if even Sollecito doesn't mention it, and even the appeal judge didn't find that piece of evidence very convincing then it most likely never happened. I have no problem with Sollecito arriving a little later anyway. We see Knox by herself on the CCTV images arriving at 9pm so it is very possible he came after her.
He wasn't off by a half hour. That's a pet theory of yours which you haven't bothered to explain. Rudy places himself at the cottage at 8:30. Meredith arrived at 9 and she walked in on him. He says himself he was out of there by 9:30. So please, again, explain how the appeal court was being so "dishonest".
He said Meredith arrived at 8:30pm. So he is off by half an hour. Do I really need to calculate the difference between 8:30 and 9pm for you?
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't think you were actually implying that arguing with one's roommate for an hour would completely halt one's digestive system. Therefore, something as stressful as being tortured for an hour seemed like the only plausible reason.
I guess you are not an athlete? Even just the stress of an upcoming competitive match will completely halt the process. A big fight will certainly do the same. Of course, not only being tortured. That is a ridiculous statement.
You keep avoiding my questions. If you don't have answers, just say so. Again:

What was the scenario in which Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele all arrive at the cottage at 9 pm, and subsequently all agree to help each other rape and kill Meredith? Who activated the Naruto file at 9:26? How did Curatolo see them in the piazza from 9:30 to midnight??

But "internet theories" such as Amanda bleeding from getting hit during the murder are fine? By the way, it isn't really an internet theory if it was actually used in the trial.
What is the problem? You want a minute by minute description of what exactly happened? I am not falling for that one. I never said Raffaelle arrived at 9pm. Multiple scenarios are possible. The thing we can be absolutely sure of is that 3 people together attacked Meredith and are responsible for her death.
 
What's the joke? You asked for evidence of bleach. But you are correct in that actual bleach bottles aren't necessary since it was argued to be residue from bathroom cleaners, the majority of which contain bleach.
A carton box is not evidence. I got piles of banana boxes that I use for my groceries. That doesn't mean I buy boxes full with bananas.
Here's a print that doesn't match Amanda:
So now you suddenly agree that a footprint can exclude a person? Like the bathmat print excluded both Amanda and Rudy. This one can match Amanda. A footprint is not a fingerprint. A toe can look a little different depending how you put your foot down.
Still waiting for you to explain the "blood" spots lit up by luminol on the CSI team's booties, rulers and in the crevices around the tiles.
I don't have to because this doesn't have anything to do with the murder.
 
If he didn't forget it he left it out on purpose? Seriously? I am not the one who is evading it. I am just pointing out that if even Sollecito doesn't mention it, and even the appeal judge didn't find that piece of evidence very convincing then it most likely never happened. I have no problem with Sollecito arriving a little later anyway. We see Knox by herself on the CCTV images arriving at 9pm so it is very possible he came after her.

Fair enough. Though, let's be clear. The log file isn't someone's opinion, or theory. Keep in mind it's a computer log.
Now would also be a good time to remind ourselves that when Massei's motivation report came out there was plenty of talk about how he didn't mention every piece of evidence that helped convict the pair in the "10,000 pages" of the case file.

He said Meredith arrived at 8:30pm. So he is off by half an hour. Do I really need to calculate the difference between 8:30 and 9pm for you?

In one instance he said he got there by himself at 8:30. In another, he changed it to him and Meredith going to the cottage at 8:30. Both times he indicates he arrived there at 8:30. He lied about Meredith getting there with him in the second version. That doesn't mean he was "off" about the time. It means he lied about Meredith getting there with him.

I guess you are not an athlete? Even just the stress of an upcoming competitive match will completely halt the process. A big fight will certainly do the same. Of course, not only being tortured. That is a ridiculous statement.

I have doubts that Meredith's fight or flight response kicked in for the duration of an hour and a half needed for your theory to be correct, especially with such tidbits as Amanda leaving to go talk to Raffaele around 9:30. The problem is for you theory to work Meredith would need to be in a panicked state from 9 all the way up to 10:30. But, let me says this. I'm not diehard about the stomach contents theory. Unlike some others I'm not convinced it was impossible for Meredith to be alive past 9:30. I find it compelling, but not something that would make me say this is the reason Amanda and Raf couldn't have killed Meredith.

What is the problem? You want a minute by minute description of what exactly happened? I am not falling for that one.

No. Didn't ask for that. But you could do the same as I and others who think Rudy alone did it and give a theory of the crime that encompasses all the evidence and doesn't sound laughable (for example, Amanda bumping into Rudy on the way to the cottage and saying "Hey, you wanna help me prank and possibly murder my roommate?").

I never said Raffaelle arrived at 9pm. Multiple scenarios are possible. The thing we can be absolutely sure of is that 3 people together attacked Meredith and are responsible for her death.

If it's such a a sure thing then it should be fairly easy for you to come up at least one of these "multiple scenarios".
 
A carton box is not evidence. I got piles of banana boxes that I use for my groceries. That doesn't mean I buy boxes full with bananas.

Totally in agreement with you on this.

So now you suddenly agree that a footprint can exclude a person? Like the bathmat print excluded both Amanda and Rudy.

And now you lost me. What did I say about a footprint excluding someone? As we've gone over before, the footprints are simply guesstimated to be Amanda's and Raf's for multiple reasons. No reference prints of the other roommates to compare to, the prints themselves are mostly blobs, and prints were incorrectly photographed. So all it comes down to is the police recognizing what looks like prints and assuming they belong to Amanda and Raf. If you have evidence to the contrary please share.

This one can match Amanda. A footprint is not a fingerprint. A toe can look a little different depending how you put your foot down.

There are no "matches".

Still waiting for you to explain the "blood" spots lit up by luminol on the CSI team's booties, rulers and in the crevices around the tiles.

I don't have to because this doesn't have anything to do with the murder.

You know, I could say the same about every piece of evidence that fell apart under scrutiny either via the Massei report or the appeal. But since I don't shy away from topics that I don't feel suit my theories you'll never see having to resort to such non-answers like this.
 
We see Knox by herself on the CCTV images arriving at 9pm so it is very possible he came after her.
What makes you think that Amanda is the person in the CCTV images? I was under the impression that the consensus view is that it was Meredith.
 
Yes, there is reason. All described in the Massei report and findings by the coroner dr Lalli. A mushroom and a percentage of alcohol similar to the amount found in a glass of wine or beer.
Let’s look into the alcohol level issue first. On pp. 152-153 of the English translation of the Massei report: "In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine of Perugia, rather than with the value of 2.72. He [Professor Cingolani?] concluded on this point that that was no pharmacokinetic condition which could justify all three of these values, that is zero in the stomach, 2.72 in the blood and 0.2 in the liver. On the basis of these elements they had concluded that Meredith was not in a condition of alcoholic intoxication… He could not indicate why the analysis of the blood had given a particularly high value, ‘close to ethylic coma,’ (page 108) other than in terms of a simple hypothesis: the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample, taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator." The implication is that the 2.72 figure was some sort of error, either contamination or exchange [mislabeling?] of samples. It is not obvious why microbial fermentation should be ruled out, as discussed below.

One major problem with the autopsy information on alcohol is the information that is not there, namely the alcohol levels from the bladder and vitreous humor. These two locations are relatively free of the problems of microbial contamination. Microbes can produce alcohol, and in some cases, the problem is severe. I suspect that this explains one result from the USS Iowa, mentioned below.

At this site: "The interpretation of the analytical results obtained from autopsy material has difficulties as a result of lack of homogeneity of blood samples, microbial alcohol production post mortem, alcohol diffusion from gastric residue and contaminated airways, and the lack of or unreliability of information on the clinical condition of the person immediately prior to death...A single autopsy blood alcohol level is uninterpretable without concurrent vitreous humour and urine alcohol levels, as well as information gleaned from the scene of the accident....Analysis of vitreous humour is useful to corroborate the post mortem blood alcohol and assist in assessing and extrapolating to anti-mortem intoxication from post mortem alcohol production. Vitreous alcohol can also serve as an alternative sample if a satisfactory post mortem blood sample is unavailable or contaminated. In most cases the specimen is easily obtained, and can be sampled without a full autopsy. Vitreous alcohol is also important, because studies have shown post mortem putrefaction does not contribute to the alcohol levels measured in the vitreous." I recall that this point came up in the accident that claimed the life of Princess Diana.

Besides vitreous fluid, the bladder is a good place to sample. In their 2007 review article (Forensic Science International 165 (2007) 10–29), Kugelberg and Jones wrote, “Thus by calculating the ratio of UAC/BAC furnishes useful information about the status of alcohol absorption at the time of death [115–118]. Finding a ratio less than or close to unity suggests incomplete absorption of alcohol in all body fluids at time of death, which indicates fairly recent drinking and some of the ingested alcohol probably remains unabsorbed in the stomach, whereas finding a ratio of 1.25 or more suggests that absorption and distribution of ethanol was complete by the time of death [117].” These authors go on to discuss the case of the USS Iowa, which may represent a particularly challenging situation for the person performing an autopsy: “For example, a person with 190 mg/100 mL in blood had no alcohol present in urine, which obviously raises suspicion about the integrity of the BAC report.”

From the textbook, Forensic Chemistry, 2nd ed., by Suzanne Bell: "The vitreous fluid, found inside the eyeball, can be valuable in postmortem cases, particularly when other postmortem samples have been compromised. It resides in what is called anatomical isolation (at least relatively isolated) and thus will resist changes associated with decomposition longer than blood, urine, and other tissues. Because there are no metabolic enzymes present, relative concentration ratios of parent compounds to metabolites are preserved…Vitreous fluid is useful for estimating alcohol levels at the time of death; outside the vitreous, changes associated with decomposition can alter the blood alcohol content.” (bolding and italics in original)

I am not aware of any record of alcohol content from Meredith’s vitreous fluid being made public. Without more information, it is not possible to say with certainty what level of alcohol was actually present in her body at her time of death. Finally, the “mushroom” was probably apple. MOO.
 
So why keep repeating some internet theory about TOD based on stomach contents that has been debunked over and over and is not even on the table anymore?
One, the theory I have presented is based on lack-of-duodenum contents, not stomach contents; please be mindful of the difference. Two, using the word "internet theory" is a poor substitute for an argument. If it is so easy to debunk, let's hear it.
 
One, the theory I have presented is based on lack-of-duodenum contents, not stomach contents; please be mindful of the difference. Two, using the word "internet theory" is a poor substitute for an argument. If it is so easy to debunk, let's hear it.
I already did. Apparently you think you know better than the coroner who did the autopsy. That is your right, just like it is my right to trust the coroner on his ability to distinguish a mushroom from an apple.
 
Rudy's Skype call has been translated by PMF and still available. Here is what he said:
R. So we went in, and I think it was about eight‐thirty, or eight‐twenty,...
R. I was in the bathroom, in the bathroom maybe five minutes. So, I really had to take this ****, but then I heard a scream, but let me tell you, a really loud scream, so loud that according to me, if anyone was passing by, nearby, they would have heard this scream, because she screamed so loud...and then, then, I got a bit worried and I got out of the bathroom right away, without even putting my pants back on, they were practically falling down, I was wearing just my underwear and my pants were falling around my...
G. But if I understand, I mean like where was this...I mean, what time do you think this happened, I don't know...
R. Around nine, nine twenty or so, because in the meantime we had gotten to talking and all.
G. I see.
R. I think nine‐twenty, nine‐thirty, around then, and then, when I heard the scream, let me tell you she screamed so loud that you could hear it even in the street, Giacomo, she screamed really loud. When I came out, it was in semi‐darkness, I came out and I saw him.
8:20-8:30pm they go inside and the scream happened 9:20-9:30pm. Do we really have to ask him if he means that Meredith was killed after about an hour?
 
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