Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#3

[~n/t~]

All my thoughts too, but better stated!

I never bought into the idea of this being a sex orgy.. that implied consent of some sort...

I wonder how this case might have turned out if presented to show Rudy was the person doing the stabbing, while others (perhaps under drugs influence, perhaps thinking it all a dream) were egging him on and were preventing MK from fleeing or leaving her room... throwing her back into him... holding her by the wrists...

Having said that, then I'm confused as to if that were so, why didn't Rudy come out and say that? AK named her boss, so why would not Rudy want to please LE and name AK/RS?

I could be wrong but I think AK and RS were already in custody.


---------


Rudy accepted a fast-track trial, apparently believing Amanda and Raffaele were framing him. The DNA left behind after his tryst with Meredith and his implausible tale of an exculpatory bout of food poisoning contributed to his 30-year sentence, but he's appealing the case and suggesting that Amanda killed Meredith during an argument about money. He claimed that Meredith called Amanda a "drugged-up tart" and that Amanda needed the money for drugs.


http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/5.html

 

[whiterum]

I don't see anyone trying to convince anyone of Guede's innocence. I think we all know he was involved.

Neither do I. Merely stating facts regarding his background and lifestyle certainly doesn't mean that anyone here is implying he is innocent.

 

[~n/t~]

Some random thoughts...

If I believed they are all guilty, I still would not think the knife is a likely murder weapon. It seems so ridiculous that they would take it back to RS's instead of dumping it somewhere. I probably have buried it in some random place and bought a new one.

If the scene was staged, why wouldn't they throw the rock through MK's window? Or, make it look like more was stolen and tell the police that? It just seems such a crappy staging. Why bother saying the door was open if you took the trouble to make it look like the entry was through the window?

These kids are fairly bright. It seems odd to do such a sketchy job of it.

Why not go to Gubbio? They could have taken a bag with all their clothes and the knife and dumped it somewhere there, leaving the others to deal with the crime scene.

I find it a bit jarring that everyone seems to try to present Amanda as a charmer, when she seems to get people's backs up. MK supposedly walked into her job at the bar and sounds more of a charmer. AK is also slated for hooking up with RS so quickly, yet MK was also seeing the guy downstairs. It's such a double standard.

If they were all three involved, why does RG not help with the supposed clean up? Wouldn't the mat and the turd be gone off he did? And if the mat print is RS's, why didn't they dispose of the mat?

The clean up and staging both seem so half hearted.

All I can think of is they were so drugged up and / or stupid.

 

[otto]

Some random thoughts...

If I believed they are all guilty, I still would not think the knife is a likely murder weapon. It seems so ridiculous that they would take it back to RS's instead of dumping it somewhere. I probably have buried it in some random place and bought a new one.

If the scene was staged, why wouldn't they throw the rock through MK's window? Or, make it look like more was stolen and tell the police that? It just seems such a crappy staging. Why bother saying the door was open if you took the trouble to make it look like the entry was through the window?

These kids are fairly bright. It seems odd to do such a sketchy job of it.

Why not go to Gubbio? They could have taken a bag with all their clothes and the knife and dumped it somewhere there, leaving the others to deal with the crime scene.

I find it a bit jarring that everyone seems to try to present Amanda as a charmer, when she seems to get people's backs up. MK supposedly walked into her job at the bar and sounds more of a charmer. AK is also slated for hooking up with RS so quickly, yet MK was also seeing the guy downstairs. It's such a double standard.

If they were all three involved, why does RG not help with the supposed clean up? Wouldn't the mat and the turd be gone off he did? And if the mat print is RS's, why didn't they dispose of the mat?

The clean up and staging both seem so half hearted.

I don't think it's quite right to paint the victim with the murderer's brush.

Meredith was a full time university student and had been living in Perugia since the end of August. Meredith got to know one of the boys downstairs and was dating him. She didn't have a hook up. Knox arrived a few weeks after Meredith. Knox had three hook ups under her belt before she met Sollecito. There is no double standard. They clearly had different morals and values.

 

[whiterum]

IMO the knife appeared to be an older knife probably in the apartment drawer for some years. It would be beyond stupid to dispose of such a knife after a murder as not only the landlord but the regular maid would certainly notice if a large knife was missing from the cutlery drawer and put two and two together. No doubt if the police came asking or voluntarily she would inform the police of this fact especially since RS and his GF were connected to a knife murder victim. So IMO no need to dispose of it and cause suspicion when no one would notice if they washed it and put it back in the drawer.

 

[Monzoo]

I have no interest in defending a murderer, but I do have an interest in working with the facts. How can we figure out what happened if we skew the facts against one of the murderers?

Quite right. We shouldn't just make stuff up. It would be best if we dealt in fact rather than baseless speculation.

Let's suppose that Knox and Sollecito were going to meet Guede to buy some drugs. Let's suppose that this was set up by Knox. That's not outside of the realm of reality. Let's suppose they wanted some good drugs to celebrate the night of the dead - as this event had particular significance for Sollecito. We know that Sollecito's bank account was nearly empty (he was waiting for his father to top it up at the beginning of the month). Meredith had 300 euros of rent money at the cottage, money that could be used to buy more drugs - money that was missing. Reportedly, they were whacked out on drugs in the afternoon. Why not have a drug induced paranoid moment and bring a knife to a meeting with the scary "black" guy so they could get more whacked in the evening?

As for bringing the knife back to Sollecito's apartment, they had no reason to believe that Sollecito's apartment would be searched ... and it's a known fact that murderers like to keep trophies, so why wouldn't a knife collectors that used a knife in a murder keep the knife as a trophy?

Going from memory, but I think that she had about $4000 in her account. That money had to last her the entire academic year ... another 6-8 months. $500/month is clearly not enough money given that her rent was 300 euros per month. She was so short on cash that she was working, without a visa, at Patrick's bar, and it does appear that she was angling to move in with Sollecito.

I guess you make an exception -- and feel free to make baseless suppositions, as long as they are against Amanda Knox. I have to say, i find the unfettered animosity I see towards her online to be extremely worrying.

 

[SMK]

Some random thoughts...

If I believed they are all guilty, I still would not think the knife is a likely murder weapon. It seems so ridiculous that they would take it back to RS's instead of dumping it somewhere. I probably have buried it in some random place and bought a new one.

If the scene was staged, why wouldn't they throw the rock through MK's window? Or, make it look like more was stolen and tell the police that? It just seems such a crappy staging. Why bother saying the door was open if you took the trouble to make it look like the entry was through the window?

These kids are fairly bright. It seems odd to do such a sketchy job of it.

Why not go to Gubbio? They could have taken a bag with all their clothes and the knife and dumped it somewhere there, leaving the others to deal with the crime scene.

I find it a bit jarring that everyone seems to try to present Amanda as a charmer, when she seems to get people's backs up. MK supposedly walked into her job at the bar and sounds more of a charmer. AK is also slated for hooking up with RS so quickly, yet MK was also seeing the guy downstairs. It's such a double standard.

If they were all three involved, why does RG not help with the supposed clean up? Wouldn't the mat and the turd be gone off he did? And if the mat print is RS's, why didn't they dispose of the mat?

The clean up and staging both seem so half hearted.

All good thoughts, all important. If I were writing a fictional book about a couple who committed such a murder, I would not have such a half-assed staging, and I would make their guilt far, far more clear. I would cut Guede right out of the story, too.

Yes, MK was an intelligent and nice girl but like so many in these times, she too was quick to get involved: There simply isn't the good girl/bad girl dichotomy in the postmodern era. Even if MK had been a girl who was a poor student and very promiscuous, would her murder at the hands of Guede or Knox and Sollecito somehow be OK?

If I am going to entertain their being guilty - something I refused to do in the past - I just wish I would have a clearer picture of their guilt. What a mess

 

[SMK]

I don't think it's quite right to paint the victim with the murderer's brush.

Meredith was a full time university student and had been living in Perugia since the end of August. Meredith got to know one of the boys downstairs and was dating him. She didn't have a hook up. Knox arrived a few weeks after Meredith. Knox had three hook ups under her belt before she met Sollecito. There is no double standard. They clearly had different morals and values.

Well, I see your point, but I guess the old days where MK would have been a virgin as opposed to Knox are gone. (if in fact that was ever realistic) Still, I never viewed Giancarlo or whatever his name was as right for Meredith. JMO

 

[SMK]

All I can think of is they were so drugged up and / or stupid.

This might possibly explain it, yes.

 

[dgfred]

Some random thoughts...

If I believed they are all guilty, I still would not think the knife is a likely murder weapon. It seems so ridiculous that they would take it back to RS's instead of dumping it somewhere. I probably have buried it in some random place and bought a new one.

If the scene was staged, why wouldn't they throw the rock through MK's window? Or, make it look like more was stolen and tell the police that? It just seems such a crappy staging. Why bother saying the door was open if you took the trouble to make it look like the entry was through the window?

These kids are fairly bright. It seems odd to do such a sketchy job of it.

Why not go to Gubbio? They could have taken a bag with all their clothes and the knife and dumped it somewhere there, leaving the others to deal with the crime scene.

I find it a bit jarring that everyone seems to try to present Amanda as a charmer, when she seems to get people's backs up. MK supposedly walked into her job at the bar and sounds more of a charmer. AK is also slated for hooking up with RS so quickly, yet MK was also seeing the guy downstairs. It's such a double standard.

If they were all three involved, why does RG not help with the supposed clean up? Wouldn't the mat and the turd be gone off he did? And if the mat print is RS's, why didn't they dispose of the mat?

The clean up and staging both seem so half hearted.

I will give your questions/statements a try.

If you buy a new one... there are going to probably be a receipt or camera shot of you doing so. Just after the murder that is highly suspicious for a major witness/suspect.

Meredith's window was not availably (at all) to climb in without a tall ladder.
Remember RS saying AK tried to look into her window but it was impossible.
I agree about the staging... as the first officer at the scene did too it seems.
Sloppy... rock too big, no need for window (front door open) break, nothing stolen, glass on top of dispersed clothing, etc.

Fairly bright doesn't help with murder... as even the best and brightest both commit it and get caught.

IMO she/they wanted to control the crime scene somewhat. I think the intention was to get Filomena to come over first and muddle up the crime scene even more. This is only my opinion but I believe RS made the first call to the police when he saw the postal police that had found the phones cruising/looking around for the cottage. I think they were not quite ready for them to show up. Both the accused (as far as I know) have ever said exactly why they didn't take that intended trip.

If RG ran from the scene which the evidence does suggest... he had no idea of the clean up. Remember witnesses testifying to hearing multiple people running late that night. In addition to the scream. Since we know he was there and didn't clean his prints/poo up... and there was some cleaning. Somebody wanted the evidence left to point to someone else.

If the cleaning was done in semi-darkness... they might not have noticed the bathmat print as a footprint. If she didn't clean up all the blood smears in the sink and drops in other places it seems some were left maybe even by accident. They may have been intending to put the final touches on their attempted clean-up when the postal police were seen looking/driving around.

Like the honest questions.

 

[jgsmith]

I don't know... I big knife is kind a scary. Especially for a prank/intimidation sort of thing.

Busting in and then going to get a knife from the kitchen wouldn't be a scary IMO.

Of course the knife might be in a bag or something for different reasons.

Grabbing a knife from RS's makes both of them carrying knives.

I get that this is possible. But do you believe that they would carry a big knife, from RS's apartment to AK's apartment, all to scare/intimidate her roommate? So, I'm not asking about possibilities. I'm asking you, if this is what you believe happened.

Jim


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[jgsmith]

It's interesting to see that the defense of Sollecito and Knox requires one to accept that false accusations (not confessions) of murder against innocent people are common, that lying during a murder investigation is okay, that alibi claims of "being too stoned to remember" is acceptable, that contamination of DNA is common, and that the judicial system of an entire EU country is corrupt.

Now we should also accept that 20 year olds "whacked out on drugs" is representative of "acting their age"?

Can we lower the bar any more without reaching hell?

Otto, you have stitched together some things I said and some I didn't. You should have been a lawyer! But seriously, there are several things about this case that I am uncomfortable with, and I have already said that I believe AK and RS know more than they are saying. I just don't believe they killed MK. Unfortunately, whether you are on the pro-innocence or pro-guilt side, you need to accept some things that don't make a lot of sense. That's also why this is such a lively, and interesting discussion.

Jim


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jgsmith]

Let's suppose that Knox and Sollecito were going to meet Guede to buy some drugs. Let's suppose that this was set up by Knox. That's not outside of the realm of reality. Let's suppose they wanted some good drugs to celebrate the night of the dead - as this event had particular significance for Sollecito. We know that Sollecito's bank account was nearly empty (he was waiting for his father to top it up at the beginning of the month). Meredith had 300 euros of rent money at the cottage, money that could be used to buy more drugs - money that was missing. Reportedly, they were whacked out on drugs in the afternoon. Why not have a drug induced paranoid moment and bring a knife to a meeting with the scary "black" guy so they could get more whacked in the evening?

As for bringing the knife back to Sollecito's apartment, they had no reason to believe that Sollecito's apartment would be searched ... and it's a known fact that murderers like to keep trophies, so why wouldn't a knife collectors that used a knife in a murder keep the knife as a trophy?

Wow. Where do I start. Up until "buy some good drugs", I was with you. I see AK and RS as very typical kids that like to smoke a joint now and then. Maybe even more now than then. Personally, I think it's a leap to say "it's Halloween, let's do some acid!" I also find it hard to believe anyone, sober or "whacked" would carry a big kitchen knife to a drug deal. I am actually, laughing at the thought of that. And to think that AK or RS would resort to theft, let alone murder, to "get some good drugs" seems to have crossed the line into fantasy. They both come from good families, and the theft was from her roommate. It doesn't take Sherlock to figure out they're going to ask questions. Again. Possible? Sure. Plausible? Not in my mind.

Jim


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[redheadedgal]

When you ask for a police report about injuries to Knox, are you thinking about the abrasion on her neck? With all the abuse that Knox claims she experienced at the hands of police, surely she was stripped and photographed ... or no? Was the abuse restricted to her decision to voluntarily go to the police station to tell lies, flipping cartwheels, but she wasn't even photographed? Was the police abuse all in her imagination?

Speaking of cartwheels, let's step back and have another look at that:

"Accounts of Knox doing splits and cartwheels as she awaited questioning by the police are a distortion of the behavior of a teenager exhibiting restlessness, Bremner argues, and depictions of a hypersexualized relationship with her "on-again, off-again" boyfriend Sollecito have been overly dramatized.

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html#ixzz0aVwcOwTk

This description was prior to the stepfather's yoga brainwave, and part of the PR campaign to turn a 20 year old woman into a 10 year old child. Why does a woman, a murder suspect, need to be portrayed as a child again?

if you read my post i was referring to dog.gone's post about possible injuries to amanda during the alledged murder. afaik, there was no concern from LE about any "evidence" on her body that lead them to use that evidence to place her at the scene. that was the point i was making.

more about nonexistent cartwheels?... :facepalm:

yoga is not an activity limited only to children so not real sure what your point is there either. she said she was stretching. the pro-guilt site sherlochk linked yesterday went so far as to say that this activity has been classified by media/LE/the accused/her family etc. as cartwheels, yoga, stretching depending on the source. to not take one opinion the blog decided to use the word "gymnastics" b/c (paraphrased) it encompasses all three... and it doesn't matter all that much. BUT it does matter b/c it keeps getting referred to as cartwheels and harped on. yoga and doing stretches/the splits is not gynmastics imo.

gynmastics: see nadia commenici, nastia luikin, mary-lou retton, gabby douglas etc.

 

[jgsmith]

I have no interest in defending a murderer, but I do have an interest in working with the facts. How can we figure out what happened if we skew the facts against one of the murderers? Guede was raised in Perugia. Throughout his childhood, he lived with a prominent Perugian family. He was between jobs, as the restaurant in Milan where he had been working had failed financially. He had his own apartment in Perugia (just like the other two culprits), he was not a drifter, he had no criminal record, and his drug history was no different than that of Knox. Sollecito had a more serious drug history.

When Guede was found at the nursery school, he did nothing other than explain that he was told that the place was for squatters. He had a knife on him when he spoke to police. Sollecito had a knife on him when he was arrested.

It feels like you are willing to give Guede the benefit of the doubt, but not AK or RS. Why is that?

Jim


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[~n/t~]

Otto, you have stitched together some things I said and some I didn't. You should have been a lawyer! But seriously, there are several things about this case that I am uncomfortable with, and I have already said that I believe AK and RS know more than they are saying. I just don't believe they killed MK. Unfortunately, whether you are on the pro-innocence or pro-guilt side, you need to accept some things that don't make a lot of sense. That's also why this is such a lively, and interesting discussion.

Jim


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What do you believe they know?

 

[~n/t~]

if you read my post i was referring to dog.gone's post about possible injuries to amanda during the alledged murder. afaik, there was no concern from LE about any "evidence" on her body that lead them to use that evidence to place her at the scene. that was the point i was making.

more about nonexistent cartwheels?... :facepalm:

yoga is not an activity limited only to children so not real sure what your point is there either. she said she was stretching. the pro-guilt site sherlochk linked yesterday went so far as to say that this activity has been classified by media/LE/the accused/her family etc. as cartwheels, yoga, stretching depending on the source. to not take one opinion the blog decided to use the word "gymnastics" b/c (paraphrased) it encompasses all three... and it doesn't matter all that much. BUT it does matter b/c it keeps getting referred to as cartwheels and harped on. yoga and doing stretches/the splits is not gynmastics imo.

gynmastics: see nadia commenici, nastia luikin, mary-lou retton, gabby douglas etc.

Whatever it was, yoga, gymnastics, cartwheels is unusual behaviour at a police station. Who does that, seriously?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Thanks. Can you please provide me with a link to the refusal of disassembling the knife. Greatly appreciated

I am still looking for a link to a news story (I have been focused on January of 2011). For the time being the best I can do is to link to a page of a discussion board where one very knowledgable pro-innocence commenter discussed it. Other commenters seemed to be saying the same thing. I'll see if I can continue to look over the weekend.

 

[redheadedgal]

During the first trial, the prosecution presented a witness who claimed to have seen Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy walking to the cottage. At a time when Raffaele was known for certain to be elsewhere. Just one of several prosecution witnesses that made claims that could not be true during that trial.

i find it odd that both meredith and rudy were seen on cctv near the cottage the evening of the murder but there are no reports of seeing the accused on cctv that same night... things that make you go hmmm...

 

[SMK]

Wow. Where do I start. Up until "buy some good drugs", I was with you. I see AK and RS as very typical kids that like to smoke a joint now and then. Maybe even more now than then. Personally, I think it's a leap to say "it's Halloween, let's do some acid!" I also find it hard to believe anyone, sober or "whacked" would carry a big kitchen knife to a drug deal. I am actually, laughing at the thought of that. And to think that AK or RS would resort to theft, let alone murder, to "get some good drugs" seems to have crossed the line into fantasy. They both come from good families, and the theft was from her roommate. It doesn't take Sherlock to figure out they're going to ask questions. Again. Possible? Sure. Plausible? Not in my mind.

Jim


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I think it really comes down to this: Were these 2 normal young people (as normal as they appeared to be?) or was there real pathology brewing? The drugs or acid need not even make an appearance, as I will explain below:

I used to think it was stupid to make the leap to 'pathology brewing'. Until I began to read about Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka (NOT saying that Knox and Sollecito are anything like these 2, though).

The latter in all aspects appeared normal and well-adjusted: So much so, that when a police composite looked like Bernardo, they still didn't bother to test his DNA. And why? Because he was white, blonde, blue eyed, smiley, polite, soft-spoken, eloquent; he was college educated, came from a good family, and all the same could be said of his young, demur wife. Two pleasant and well-liked people in their 20s, with a profession, a house, lots of love from family and friends.

Why on earth would they be compelled to embark on kidnappings, drugging, raping, sodomizing, strangling, dismembering? And yet they did.......So what does this have to do with Knox and Sollecito? Nothing, except to illustrate that IF there is real pathology, the exterior may hide it so well that no one suspects a thing until the bizarre crime has occurred.

And it doesn't even take drugs or acid for such to occur, if the fuse is lit, and the pathology deeply rooted. The scariest thing is, it was only their 2 personalities fused that caused just the right chemistry for real pathology of the degree and kind they displayed.

Could Knox and Sollecito have been a fatal combination?

Possible? Yes. Plausible? Only if they were lunatics under the skin. All hinges on this. Otherwise, to suspect them is absurd.