Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#3

[~n/t~]

I am still looking for a link to a news story (I have been focused on January of 2011). For the time being the best I can do is to link to a page of a discussion board where one very knowledgable pro-innocence commenter discussed it. Other commenters seemed to be saying the same thing. I'll see if I can continue to look over the weekend.

Thanks. I also tried looking but only found an article mentioning the judge was going to decide but couldn't find when the decision was made not to.

 

[dgfred]

I get that this is possible. But do you believe that they would carry a big knife, from RS's apartment to AK's apartment, all to scare/intimidate her roommate? So, I'm not asking about possibilities. I'm asking you, if this is what you believe happened.

Jim


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IMO, yes. I believe they had the kitchen knife either in her bag or taken to scare Meredith. I think AK was VERY frustrated about Meredith not paying any attention to her the night before, already having plans that night, and for maybe pushing in on her place at Patrick's bar. She even said that Meredith 'could have' her current boyfriend... implying AK thought maybe she could have really had him if she wanted. I think she was pissed and IMO RS is not a 'normal' person... but I don't like to get into/or discuss the problems he had with bestiality *advertiser censored* and stuff. That is in addition to the knife-liking stuff.

Many think it is premeditated but I do not think there was original intention to kill (because of getting RG involved) ... it just escalated to that point. I run into opposition in that.. even in pro-guilt discussions.

 

[Amber29]

Wow. Where do I start. Up until "buy some good drugs", I was with you. I see AK and RS as very typical kids that like to smoke a joint now and then. Maybe even more now than then. Personally, I think it's a leap to say "it's Halloween, let's do some acid!" I also find it hard to believe anyone, sober or "whacked" would carry a big kitchen knife to a drug deal. I am actually, laughing at the thought of that. And to think that AK or RS would resort to theft, let alone murder, to "get some good drugs" seems to have crossed the line into fantasy. They both come from good families, and the theft was from her roommate. It doesn't take Sherlock to figure out they're going to ask questions. Again. Possible? Sure. Plausible? Not in my mind.

Jim


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The referencing them as typical kids who come from good homes doesn't equal innocence.
I don't know what your version of a typical kid is but for me these two are young adults. I also don't think it's far fetched to think someone who smokes pot regularly would branch out.

You asked Otto why he gives Rudy the benefit of the doubt and not AK/RS.

Well why do you feel he's so much more capable of murder than AK/RS? What is so different about him and his upbringing that makes him a murderer and not them? Lets keep in mind that he's a "typical kid" as you said as they are as well. He's months older than AK and younger than RS.

 

[Amber29]

Whatever it was, yoga, gymnastics, cartwheels is unusual behaviour at a police station. Who does that, seriously?

Jodi Arias?

 

[redheadedgal]

But since reading extensively on the case of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka - both young, collegiate , middle class, blue eyed and blonde in their 20s - I can see that youth simply is not an argument. Nor is whiteness, nor middle class status, etc. Not to say they are guilty- just that youth is no argument for innocence.

not discounting your point on "youth" and merely for accuracy:

neither PB or KH were collegiate when tammy, leslie and kristen were killed.

 

[Amber29]

Some random thoughts...

If I believed they are all guilty, I still would not think the knife is a likely murder weapon. It seems so ridiculous that they would take it back to RS's instead of dumping it somewhere. I probably have buried it in some random place and bought a new one.

If the scene was staged, why wouldn't they throw the rock through MK's window? Or, make it look like more was stolen and tell the police that? It just seems such a crappy staging. Why bother saying the door was open if you took the trouble to make it look like the entry was through the window?

These kids are fairly bright. It seems odd to do such a sketchy job of it.

Why not go to Gubbio? They could have taken a bag with all their clothes and the knife and dumped it somewhere there, leaving the others to deal with the crime scene.

I find it a bit jarring that everyone seems to try to present Amanda as a charmer, when she seems to get people's backs up. MK supposedly walked into her job at the bar and sounds more of a charmer. AK is also slated for hooking up with RS so quickly, yet MK was also seeing the guy downstairs. It's such a double standard.

If they were all three involved, why does RG not help with the supposed clean up? Wouldn't the mat and the turd be gone off he did? And if the mat print is RS's, why didn't they dispose of the mat?

The clean up and staging both seem so half hearted.

I think a lot of things murderers do while committing there crimes are ridiculous luckily it usually leads to them being caught. Maybe it sounded better in their thinking then it played out in real life.
I mean jodi Arias put enough gas cans in her car to not have to stop in Arizona, yet she filled them with her credit card instead of paying with cash. She also deleted pictures and left Traviss camera even though it proved she was there, when she couldve taken it with her and got rid of it along with her clothes and murder weapon.I find that ridiculous too.

It does seem like a poor staging. The logical window for a break in would've been the kitchen window that was accessible from behind the cottage but that window would've been visible when entering the house. Making it harder to claim you didn't notice the breakin until after your shower. It can't be put behind a "closed" door and discovered when you wanted. The door was left open because that's how the "burglar" left. Even the most brightest people would have trouble committing the "perfect crime", you can't think of everything.

I'm glad you mention the Gubbio trip. I find it odd that they didn't just get up in the morning and head on their road trip. Amanda says she had to go home to shower that morning, even though she claims they showered together that night even including details of Raffaele cleaning her ears. Seems more to me that they had to stick around for a reason. Maybe controlling the scene.

Personally I think they all left at the same time, Ak/RS returned later to clean up. How do you explain Amanda's lamp (her only source of light for her room) being found behind Meredith's door on the floor at the foot of her bed? As a woman if I was blow drying my hair in a bathroom that had feces in the toilet, I would flush it without a second thought. Amanda's story is she left it, why?

I find the whole story of Amanda's actions that morning ridiculous!
Who would come home to a house in November with the door open, no heat all night and take a shower all while leaving the door open. That's just the tip of the far fetched story....

 

[otto]

Quite right. We shouldn't just make stuff up. It would be best if we dealt in fact rather than baseless speculation.


I guess you make an exception -- and feel free to make baseless suppositions, as long as they are against Amanda Knox. I have to say, i find the unfettered animosity I see towards her online to be extremely worrying.

From memory, I knew that Knox had about $4000 and paid €300/month rent. From the Massei Report, I know that she had $4457 and that she paid €300/month rent. My memory worked as I would expect ... factual.

Speculating on what Knox did with a knife doesn't involve fact, it involves speculation. "Let's suppose ... " seems like a reasonable method for presenting an opinion and speculating, so what follows after "suppose" shouldn't have been mistaken for fact.

Ref: Massei Report

 

[redheadedgal]

I have no interest in defending a murderer, but I do have an interest in working with the facts. How can we figure out what happened if we skew the facts against one of the murderers?

yet that's exactly what you do to amanda and raff, time and time again... :twocents:

 

[otto]

I get that this is possible. But do you believe that they would carry a big knife, from RS's apartment to AK's apartment, all to scare/intimidate her roommate? So, I'm not asking about possibilities. I'm asking you, if this is what you believe happened.

Jim

Keep in mind that we're trying to understand why a "whacked out" stoned person - someone that was stoned every day for a couple of weeks - would decide to carry a knife.

 

[jgsmith]

IMO the knife appeared to be an older knife probably in the apartment drawer for some years. It would be beyond stupid to dispose of such a knife after a murder as not only the landlord but the regular maid would certainly notice if a large knife was missing from the cutlery drawer and put two and two together. No doubt if the police came asking or voluntarily she would inform the police of this fact especially since RS and his GF were connected to a knife murder victim. So IMO no need to dispose of it and cause suspicion when no one would notice if they washed it and put it back in the drawer.

It would be dumber to carry a bloody knife across town, clean it an stuff it back in the drawer than just dispose of it and buy another? I can't imagine the person cleaning his apartment remembering the number and condition of the knives. My cleaner can't even remember to take the recycling out.

Jim


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[jgsmith]

Quite right. We shouldn't just make stuff up. It would be best if we dealt in fact rather than baseless speculation.





I guess you make an exception -- and feel free to make baseless suppositions, as long as they are against Amanda Knox. I have to say, i find the unfettered animosity I see towards her online to be extremely worrying.

I nominate this for post of the year! I haven't laughed this hard in a while.

Jim


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[SMK]

not discounting your point on "youth" and merely for accuracy:

neither PB or KH were collegiate when tammy, leslie and kristen were killed.

Well, but Bernardo was a college graduate, right? Meaning that one need not be alienated, disenfranchised, a sullen outcast to commit such crimes (as some people assume).

 

[otto]

Wow. Where do I start. Up until "buy some good drugs", I was with you. I see AK and RS as very typical kids that like to smoke a joint now and then. Maybe even more now than then. Personally, I think it's a leap to say "it's Halloween, let's do some acid!" I also find it hard to believe anyone, sober or "whacked" would carry a big kitchen knife to a drug deal. I am actually, laughing at the thought of that. And to think that AK or RS would resort to theft, let alone murder, to "get some good drugs" seems to have crossed the line into fantasy. They both come from good families, and the theft was from her roommate. It doesn't take Sherlock to figure out they're going to ask questions. Again. Possible? Sure. Plausible? Not in my mind.

Jim

I don't view adults, aged 20-23 as "kids". I don't think it is normal, or acceptable, for adults aged 20-23 to get stoned every day. I have no idea why stoned people do what they do, but I do know that people behave abnormally and irrationally when they are stoned.

 

[otto]

if you read my post i was referring to dog.gone's post about possible injuries to amanda during the alledged murder. afaik, there was no concern from LE about any "evidence" on her body that lead them to use that evidence to place her at the scene. that was the point i was making.

more about nonexistent cartwheels?... :facepalm:

yoga is not an activity limited only to children so not real sure what your point is there either. she said she was stretching. the pro-guilt site sherlochk linked yesterday went so far as to say that this activity has been classified by media/LE/the accused/her family etc. as cartwheels, yoga, stretching depending on the source. to not take one opinion the blog decided to use the word "gymnastics" b/c (paraphrased) it encompasses all three... and it doesn't matter all that much. BUT it does matter b/c it keeps getting referred to as cartwheels and harped on. yoga and doing stretches/the splits is not gynmastics imo.

gynmastics: see nadia commenici, nastia luikin, mary-lou retton, gabby douglas etc.

According to the witnesses, Knox was flipping cartwheels. According to people that were not there, what Knox did should be interpreted as "yoga". I get it, but at the same time, I prefer the witness description.

 

[SMK]

I'm glad you mention the Gubbio trip. I find it odd that they didn't just get up in the morning and head on their road trip. Amanda says she had to go home to shower that morning, even though she claims they showered together that night even including details of Raffaele cleaning her ears. Seems more to me that they had to stick around for a reason. Maybe controlling the scene.

Had Knox and Sollecito (whether guilty or innocent) simply left on their trip, leaving others to discover the crime and call authorities, do you think they would have been suspects?

 

[otto]

It feels like you are willing to give Guede the benefit of the doubt, but not AK or RS. Why is that?

Jim

Not at all. I see no reason to demonize anyone. Guede came from a good background, just like Knox and Sollecito. All three were living independently, all three liked drugs, Sollecito was completing a university degree, Knox was fooling around in a language course and Guede was between jobs. Sollecito and Guede carried knives, and it appears that Knox picked up the habit in Perugia. This isn't about two nice children and an evil black dude, this is about three adults that committed a brutal murder.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Thanks. I also tried looking but only found an article mentioning the judge was going to decide but couldn't find when the decision was made not to.

"Conti asked the judge for permission to remove the knife handle to test for DNA traces on the lower part of the blade but was told he and Vecchiotti would have to make a formal request to the court." link
EDT
On one board it was reported that Maresca and the prosecution (Comodi, IIRC) objected.

 

[jgsmith]

What do you believe they know?

No idea. It just feels to me like they know more than they are saying. I would not be surprised to learn that AK and RS were at the apartment when RG killed her. Maybe they walked in on a crime in progress. Maybe they were all there together, things got out of hand and AK and RS bolted. I don't know. But just because I don't believe AK and RS killed MK, doesn't mean I think they're innocent.

Jim


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[jgsmith]

Whatever it was, yoga, gymnastics, cartwheels is unusual behaviour at a police station. Who does that, seriously?

Jodi Arias. Wait, I'm pro-innocence. Nevermind.

Jim


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[Monzoo]

From memory, I knew that Knox had about $4000 and paid €300/month rent. From the Massei Report, I know that she had $4457 and that she paid €300/month rent. My memory worked as I would expect ... factual.

Speculating on what Knox did with a knife doesn't involve fact, it involves speculation. "Let's suppose ... " seems like a reasonable method for presenting an opinion and speculating, so what follows after "suppose" shouldn't have been mistaken for fact.

Ref: Massei Report

Well, there is the entire speculation that she would have gone out to buy "hard" drugs. From Guede, no less. Based on what other than a desire to see Amanda Knox under the worst possible light? There certainly is no indication she had ever tried harder drugs.

And why in the world would Raffaele (drove and Audi, had a housekeeper) or Amanda (full back account in Italy, full savings account in the US, and parents ready to help if needed) think to steal money? Sounds again like justifying an irrational hate of Amanda by painting her in the worst possible way.