Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

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re: trial testimony, the snippet previously posted does not accurately represent knox's answer in court :

CP: Listen, the first time you ever actually said that Patrick had nothing
to do with it, when was it? Do you remember? Of these people you told,
was it to your lawyers? Or was it your mother on the phone on the 10th?

AK: That Patrick had nothing to do with it? I imagined that he was innocent
because--

CP: But when did you said it for the first time? In the phone call with
your mother on November 10th?

AK: I don't know when the first time I told someone was.

GCM: Excuse me. Before you told your mother, did you tell anyone else?

AK: Yes, I wrote it in my memorandum of the 7th.

AK testimony @ june 12, 2009 -- http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=80193
 
re: trial testimony, the snippet previously posted does not accurately represent knox's answer in court :

CP: Listen, the first time you ever actually said that Patrick had nothing
to do with it, when was it? Do you remember? Of these people you told,
was it to your lawyers? Or was it your mother on the phone on the 10th?

AK: That Patrick had nothing to do with it? I imagined that he was innocent
because--

CP: But when did you said it for the first time? In the phone call with
your mother on November 10th?

AK: I don't know when the first time I told someone was.

GCM: Excuse me. Before you told your mother, did you tell anyone else?

AK: Yes, I wrote it in my memorandum of the 7th.

AK testimony @ june 12, 2009 -- http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=80193

That is what Knox claims during the trial, but that is not entirely true. She does not actually state that Patrick had nothing to do with the murder in her November 7 letter. Correct me if I'm wrong ... looking forward to seeing the full text containing the statement ... since trial transcripts contradict the claim.
 
Second memoriale Nov 7, 2007

Oh my God! I’m freaking out a bit now because I talked to a nun and I finally remember. It can’t be a coincidence. I remember what I was doing with Raffaele at the time of the murder of my friend! We are both innocent! This is why: After dinner Raffaele began washing the dishes in the kitchen and I was giving him a back massage while he was doing it. It’s something we do for one another when someone is cleaning dishes, because it makes cleaning better. I remember now that it was AFTER dinner that we smoked marijuana and while we smoked I began by saying that he shouldn’t worry about the sink. He was upset because the sink was broken but it was new and I told him to not worry about it because it was only a little bad thing that had happened, and that little bad things are nothing to worry about. We began to talk more about what kind of people we were. We talked about how I’m more easy-going and less organized than he is, and how he is very organized because of the time he spent in Germany. It was during this conversation that Raffaele told me about his past. How he had a horrible experience with drugs and alcohol. He told me that he drove his friends to a concert and that they were using cocaine, marijuana, he was drinking rum, and how, after the concert, when he was driving his passed-out friends home, how he had realized what a bad thing he had done and had decided to change. He told me about how in the past he dyed his hair yellow and another time when he was young had cut designs in his hair. He used to wear earrings. He did this because when he was young he played video games and watched Sailor Moon, a Japanese girl cartoon, and so he wasn’t a popular kid at school. People made fun of him. I told him about how in high school I had been unpopular as well, because the people in my school thought I was a lesbian. We talked about his friends, how they hadn’t changed from drug-using video game players, and how he was sad for them. We talked about his mother, how she had died and how he felt guilty because he had left her alone before she died. He told me that before she died she told him she wanted to die because she was alone and had nothing to live for. I told Raffaele that wasn’t his fault that his mother was depressed and wanted to die. I told him he did the right thing by going to school. I told him that life is full of choices, and those choices aren’t necessarily between good and bad. There are options between what is best and what is not, and all we have to do is do what we think is best. I told him that mistakes teach us to be better people, and so he shouldn’t feel nervous about going to Milan to study, because he felt he needed to be nearer to his friends who hadn’t changed and he felt needed him. But I told him he had to be true to himself. It was a very long conversation but it did happen and it must have happened at the time of Meredith’s murder, so to clarify, this is what happened. Around five in the evening Raffaele and I returned to his place to get comfortable. I checked my email on his computer for a while and then afterward I read a little Harry Potter to him in German. We watched Amelie and afterward we kissed for a little while. I told him about how I really liked this movie and how my friends thought I was similar to Amelie because I’m a bit of a weirdo, in that I like random little things, like birds singing, and these little things make me happy. I don’t remember if we had sex. Raffaele made dinner and I watched him and we stayed together in the kitchen while dinner was cooking. After dinner Raffaele cleaned the dishes and this is when the pipes below came loose and flooded the kitchen floor with water. He was upset, but I told him we could clean it up tomorrow when I brought back a mop from my house. He put a few small towels over the water to soak up a little and then he threw them into the sink. I asked him what would make him feel better and he said he would like to smoke some hash. I received a message from my boss about how I didn’t have to come into work and I sent him a message back with the words: “Ci vediamo. Buona serata.” While Raffaele rolled the joint I laid in bed quietly watching him. He asked me what I was thinking about and I told him I thought we were very different kinds of people. And so our conversation began, which I have already written about. After our conversation I know we stayed in bed together for a long time. We had sex and then afterward we played our game of looking at each other and making faces. After this period of time we fell asleep and I didn’t wake up until Friday morning. This is what happened and I could swear by it. I’m sorry I didn’t remember before and I’m sorry I said I could have been at the house when it happened. I said these things because I was confused and scared. I didn’t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick. I was very stressed at the time and I really did think he was the murderer. But now I remember that I can’t know who the murderer was because I didn’t return back to the house.
I know the police will not be happy about this, but it’s the truth and I don’t know why my boyfriend told lies about me, but I think he is scared and doesn’t remember well either. But this is what it is, this is what I remember.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (p. 159). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
 
Second memoriale Nov 7, 2007

Oh my God! I’m freaking out a bit now because I talked to a nun and I finally remember. It can’t be a coincidence. I remember what I was doing with Raffaele at the time of the murder of my friend! We are both innocent! This is why: After dinner Raffaele began washing the dishes in the kitchen and I was giving him a back massage while he was doing it. It’s something we do for one another when someone is cleaning dishes, because it makes cleaning better. I remember now that it was AFTER dinner that we smoked marijuana and while we smoked I began by saying that he shouldn’t worry about the sink. He was upset because the sink was broken but it was new and I told him to not worry about it because it was only a little bad thing that had happened, and that little bad things are nothing to worry about. We began to talk more about what kind of people we were. We talked about how I’m more easy-going and less organized than he is, and how he is very organized because of the time he spent in Germany. It was during this conversation that Raffaele told me about his past. How he had a horrible experience with drugs and alcohol. He told me that he drove his friends to a concert and that they were using cocaine, marijuana, he was drinking rum, and how, after the concert, when he was driving his passed-out friends home, how he had realized what a bad thing he had done and had decided to change. He told me about how in the past he dyed his hair yellow and another time when he was young had cut designs in his hair. He used to wear earrings. He did this because when he was young he played video games and watched Sailor Moon, a Japanese girl cartoon, and so he wasn’t a popular kid at school. People made fun of him. I told him about how in high school I had been unpopular as well, because the people in my school thought I was a lesbian. We talked about his friends, how they hadn’t changed from drug-using video game players, and how he was sad for them. We talked about his mother, how she had died and how he felt guilty because he had left her alone before she died. He told me that before she died she told him she wanted to die because she was alone and had nothing to live for. I told Raffaele that wasn’t his fault that his mother was depressed and wanted to die. I told him he did the right thing by going to school. I told him that life is full of choices, and those choices aren’t necessarily between good and bad. There are options between what is best and what is not, and all we have to do is do what we think is best. I told him that mistakes teach us to be better people, and so he shouldn’t feel nervous about going to Milan to study, because he felt he needed to be nearer to his friends who hadn’t changed and he felt needed him. But I told him he had to be true to himself. It was a very long conversation but it did happen and it must have happened at the time of Meredith’s murder, so to clarify, this is what happened. Around five in the evening Raffaele and I returned to his place to get comfortable. I checked my email on his computer for a while and then afterward I read a little Harry Potter to him in German. We watched Amelie and afterward we kissed for a little while. I told him about how I really liked this movie and how my friends thought I was similar to Amelie because I’m a bit of a weirdo, in that I like random little things, like birds singing, and these little things make me happy. I don’t remember if we had sex. Raffaele made dinner and I watched him and we stayed together in the kitchen while dinner was cooking. After dinner Raffaele cleaned the dishes and this is when the pipes below came loose and flooded the kitchen floor with water. He was upset, but I told him we could clean it up tomorrow when I brought back a mop from my house. He put a few small towels over the water to soak up a little and then he threw them into the sink. I asked him what would make him feel better and he said he would like to smoke some hash. I received a message from my boss about how I didn’t have to come into work and I sent him a message back with the words: “Ci vediamo. Buona serata.” While Raffaele rolled the joint I laid in bed quietly watching him. He asked me what I was thinking about and I told him I thought we were very different kinds of people. And so our conversation began, which I have already written about. After our conversation I know we stayed in bed together for a long time. We had sex and then afterward we played our game of looking at each other and making faces. After this period of time we fell asleep and I didn’t wake up until Friday morning. This is what happened and I could swear by it. I’m sorry I didn’t remember before and I’m sorry I said I could have been at the house when it happened. I said these things because I was confused and scared. I didn’t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick. I was very stressed at the time and I really did think he was the murderer. But now I remember that I can’t know who the murderer was because I didn’t return back to the house.
I know the police will not be happy about this, but it’s the truth and I don’t know why my boyfriend told lies about me, but I think he is scared and doesn’t remember well either. But this is what it is, this is what I remember.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (p. 159). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Well, this is OK as far as it goes. But how many people would "remember" that they had NOT been at a murder scene? I find it hard to relate to, but then , I never smoked pot.

I understand how one could be stressed, and have police saying you had had a memory lapse. That would be frightening, and might lead to a false confession (or in this case, an accusation of another).

On the other hand, wouldn't every criminal or accomplice or instigator love to say, "Oh my God, I talked to a nun, and now I know I COULDN'T have committed the crime. I remember now, I wasn't there." It depends on if we view Knox as very innocent and guileless, or a bit of an operator. I know girls can be both....
 
Well, this is OK as far as it goes. But how many people would "remember" that they had NOT been at a murder scene? I find it hard to relate to, but then , I never smoked pot.

I understand how one could be stressed, and have police saying you had had a memory lapse. That would be frightening, and might lead to a false confession (or in this case, an accusation of another).

On the other hand, wouldn't every criminal or accomplice or instigator love to say, "Oh my God, I talked to a nun, and now I know I COULDN'T have committed the crime. I remember now, I wasn't there." It depends on if we view Knox as very innocent and guileless, or a bit of an operator. I know girls can be both....

Amanda had been telling them for days over and over where she was and what she had been doing.

It's not like on Nov 2 Amanda told the cops "Umm, I dunno where we were last night because I smoked pot"

I think they traumatized her and it took her a day or two to snap out of it. What she wrote on Nov 7 is evidence of that.
 
Amanda had been telling them for days over and over where she was and what she had been doing.

It's not like on Nov 2 Amanda told the cops "Umm, I dunno where we were last night because I smoked pot"

I think they traumatized her and it took her a day or two to snap out of it. What she wrote on Nov 7 is evidence of that.
Yes - I always felt there were indications of that (trauma which needed to be digested and recovered from). I think the police jumped on those 2 too soon and too aggressively. .... On the other hand, there are also indicators of something amiss. Maybe it is not a black or white thing; maybe they were unintentional instigators and then did a simulation from paranoia or an over-acceptance of blame. This is a very strange case; one of the strangest I have ever encountered. I still don't know where I firmly stand, but I know I cannot commit to either/or , to either camp wholly. Maybe this is how Knox and Sollecito themselves felt---like they were in a grey zone....
 
The fibers on the body is not the same as the hair in the hand. It is unbelievable that they lost it, but apparently that is what happened.
Ah, ok - so there really was a hair which was lost.
 
Second memoriale Nov 7, 2007

I didn’t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick. I was very stressed at the time and I really did think he was the murderer. But now I remember that I can’t know who the murderer was because I didn’t return back to the house.
I know the police will not be happy about this, but it’s the truth and I don’t know why my boyfriend told lies about me, but I think he is scared and doesn’t remember well either. But this is what it is, this is what I remember.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (p. 159). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

<respectfully snipped>

Knox Nov 7, 2007:

"I didn&#8217;t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick. I was very stressed at the time and I really did think he was the murderer. But now I remember that I can&#8217;t know who the murderer was because I didn&#8217;t return back to the house."

Thank you for transcribing the entire text of the November 7. In my opinion, it confirms what I've said throughout the discussion.

  • Late on November 5, Knox implicates Patrick. She tells a lie about him.
  • On November 7, Knox states that she did not lie when she implicated Patrick.

That was the opposite of what she should have said. She should have said that she did tell a lie, and that she was dishonest, when she implicated Patrick. She did lie. We all know that. A claim from her that she did not lie is simply another lie. What Knox does is attempt to distance herself from the murder. She states that she was not at the cottage during the murder. As I've said, she does not admit to lying to police and falsely implicating Patrick, she simply wants to remove herself from the scene of the crime. That is her only objective ... not to tell the truth about Patrick. Therein lies the problem.

I realize that some people want to read between the lines and interpret what she writes as meaning that because she wasn't there, she doesn't know who murdered Meredith, and regarding Patrick, she didn't lie. But to believe that, we have to forget that she did lie.
 
Well, this is OK as far as it goes. But how many people would "remember" that they had NOT been at a murder scene? I find it hard to relate to, but then , I never smoked pot.

I understand how one could be stressed, and have police saying you had had a memory lapse. That would be frightening, and might lead to a false confession (or in this case, an accusation of another).

On the other hand, wouldn't every criminal or accomplice or instigator love to say, "Oh my God, I talked to a nun, and now I know I COULDN'T have committed the crime. I remember now, I wasn't there." It depends on if we view Knox as very innocent and guileless, or a bit of an operator. I know girls can be both....

A 20 year old that occassionally smoked pot prior to arriving in Europe should not suffer memory problems due to pot smoking.
 
As far as I know, none of Meredith's friends and roommates were video taped when they were interviewed as witnesses. It is also not normal policy to video tape witness statements during an investigation. I'm sure that if the police had any idea that Knox would make a statement about Patrick during her witness interview, they would have had a video camera rolling

What budget constraints?

again, none of this is correct...

12’51’’ CNN: Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?

13’00’’ Mignini: Look, that’s, I was at the police station, and all the…let’s say…when I made investigations in my own office, I taped them. I taped them, we have an apparatus for that, and I transcribed them. For example, there’s the interrogation of the English girls, Meredith’s friends, it was all taped. The interrogations of Amanda in prison were taped, and then transcribed, and we have the transcripts of… But in a police station, at the very moment of the investigation it isn’t done, not with respect to Amanda or anyone else. Also because, I can tell you, today, even then, but today in particular, we have budget problems, budget problems that are not insignificant, which do not allow us to transcribe. Video is very important…I completely agree with you that videotaping is extremely important, we should be able to have a video recording of every statement [verbale di assunzione di informazioni] made Because what is said is very important, but it’s maybe even more important how it is said, the non-verbal language. Because from the non-verbal language you can [missing words].

15’14’’ Mignini: It isn’t only Amanda, it’s always like that. But I wanted to say that I agree with him that it’s fundamental, only there’s a problem, especially when the witnesses are so numerous, and in fact just recording, I mean recording the sound, isn’t enough according to me.

15’38’’ CNN: It doesn’t cost much, he says.

15’40’’ Mignini: Well we have significant budget problems, that’s what it is.

http://amada-knox-data.wikispaces.com/Mignini-CNN-interview

* the $200,000US cartoon would appear to negate any claim of budget contraints imo
 
A 20 year old that occassionally smoked pot prior to arriving in Europe should not suffer memory problems due to pot smoking.
If that is the case, maybe this is why the police suspected them when they said they couldn't remember.

On the other hand, something about the police insisting she had a black- out and her conjuring up PL does sound like other false confessions I have read about, caused by bad interrogation technique. I recall one where a girl confessed to killing someone, and it later was proven she did not. If you can implicate yourself, I suppose you can implicate another as well...

I can see why Knox believes she didn't intentionally lie about PL. Had she really been out to get him, she could have done far better: She could have fleshed out more details and really framed him. In the end, I feel Knox and Sollecito had some role, and they are in deep trouble for it and maybe should be. Is it possible to be coerced into a false confession and also be guilty?
ETA:So you believe, otto, that all of it is very manipulative: She is NOT stressed, she is faking when she acts all hazy about Patrick. When she imagines she sees him, and they hear her screaming, "he's bad!". It's all a ruse, she is acting. and she is acting when she retracts it , and when she finally remembers she stayed home and was never there. If you are correct, then I see why all of this gets you so angry.
 
Ah, ok - so there really was a hair which was lost.

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right but I'm giving it a try. The link should take you to crime photos that show Merideth's bagged hands and another pointing out the hair.

I'm unsure what came of this.
 
If that is the case, maybe this is why the police suspected them when they said they couldn't remember.

On the other hand, something about the police insisting she had a black- out and her conjuring up PL does sound like other false confessions I have read about, caused by bad interrogation technique. I recall one where a girl confessed to killing someone, and it later was proven she did not.

I can see why Knox believes she didn't intentionally lie about PL. Had she really been out to get him, she could have done far better: She could have fleshed out more details and really framed him. In the end, I feel Knox and Sollecito had some role, and they are in deep trouble for it and maybe should be. Is it possible to be coerced into a false confession and also be guilty?

Knox and Sollecito claimed that they couldn't remember what they did on the night of the murder because they smoked pot or hashish and drank alcohol. Police didn't cook that up. That is the excuse they gave to explain their ever changing alibis. I don't think that Knox was out to get Patrick, I think she intended to save her own skin. I'm of the opinion that she fully expected that she would be released after implicating Patrick. That's how it works on CSI.

"However, just days later, this damning account also was retracted. Now that he had had time to mull things over, Raffaele said, he couldn’t remember much at all about the night Meredith was killed—not whether Amanda was with him at home the entire evening or whether she actually went out. Because there was so much grass, so much alcohol, he just couldn’t remember,” Raffaele’s lawyer offers helpfully. Only hashish and marijuana, he adds."

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/06/perugia200806
 
It looks like Meredith had some highlights or lighter coloured hair not just black. Guede's attack was so violent he pulled her hair out at the roots. You can see more hair on the ground in the crime scene pics.

MeredithKercherL_468x506.jpg
 
Thank you very much. Yes, I do see it; I thought it looked more like a hair than a fiber. It is sad to see Meredith's hands bagged.


Yes, it is so sad.

This is such a confusing case. Amanda reminds me so much of Jodi Arias in the way she acts and responds.

Unfortunately, it seems like there is so much misinformation out there and it makes it very difficult to form a solid opinion.
 
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