Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#6

[geevee]

Luminol evidence has been described as fruit pulp.
Since when is it possible to identify blood droplets from a photo?

Thanks, I wasn't questioning about identifying blood in photos, I have no idea why fruit pulp has been mentioned at all, was there fruit pulp anywhere in the cottage or is that just a theory of what the Luminol reacted to? And why would she have fruit pulp under her bra?

 

[Yellow]

I suggested that they had used a mop from Raffeale's flat to clean the scene then cleaned his mop with the bleach that the police smelled when they went to his flat. It would be a clever diversion, IMO.

I don't believe that Raff didn't have a mop. He had a cleaning lady so he must have had supplies. I think I read that when questioned, she stated that there was bleach in the house than later recanted.

I suspect the police would have asked the cleaning lady if RS had a mop. That would be a simple enough factor to find out, I am sure if she said yes, the prosecutor would be making the same argument you are making

And what is the implication, that AK and RS were tracking through Perugia with a bloody mop to clean it at RS apartment? How stupid would that be to be caught walking the streets w a bloody mop? Surely, they would have cleaned the mop at the murder scene instead of trolling around Perugia w a bloody mop to clean at his apartment. And there is no evidence they had cans of bleach at the apartment.

There was bleach at RS, one full can and one only very partially used.

One also supposes AK and RS to be CSI experts, to know that bleach kills DNA. Maybe RS knew that but I doubt AK or RG did.

 

[geevee]

I think it's been discussed that luminol can detect blood even if it is not possible to identify the DNA in the blood. Blood evidence does not always reveal DNA.

Yes, true, but the simple fact that Luminol reacted does not mean it was in fact human blood causing the reaction. And no dna found would point to it being a reaction to something other than blood. I did find the post by the chemist here (can't recall nickname) to be quite reasonable as to why dna may be there (skin cells from feet).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I think it's been discussed that luminol can detect blood even if it is not possible to identify the DNA in the blood. Blood evidence does not always reveal DNA.

No citation was given to back that claim up. However, I also found this in the article I cited: "DNA tests performed in 2007, prior to Taylor’s innocence hearing, showed the stain was not blood." I would like to have more information, but it sounds as if they looked for forensic DNA but did not find it. Food for thought.

 

[geevee]

RG's shoeprints in visible blood were out of the murder room and out the door. Given the bloody bathmat and other blood around, I guess MK was right in AK being w horrible cleaner, she cannot even clean a murder scene up right.

LOL good one.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

RG's shoeprints in visible blood were out of the murder room and out the door.

With respect the footprints do not go out the door.

 

[otto]

Can someone tell me how often a 'satanic cult' has been responsible for a crime scene/murder? I see the term/theory pop up now and again and for the life of me I can't recall in recent memory when that's turned out to be the case. I don't mean Heavens Gaters or such, but actual murders where it was found to be the work of a cult with Satan as their leader (or whatever).

I think the theory was more popular a few decades ago, but I've always thought it was more fiction than fact. For example, Charles Manson wanted investigators to believe that a satanic cult was behind the murders that his gang committed. As we saw with the Laci Peterson murder, there are still situations where tips require that police pursue the theory.

 

[otto]

Thanks, I wasn't questioning about identifying blood in photos, I have no idea why fruit pulp has been mentioned at all, was there fruit pulp anywhere in the cottage or is that just a theory of what the Luminol reacted to? And why would she have fruit pulp under her bra?

The theory is that luminol evidence is unreliable. One arguments that has been presented is that luminol reacts with fruit pulp, therefore the footprints could have been created with fruit pulp.

It is impossible to look at a photograph and conclude that blood droplets were on a body. I was joking when I suggested that whatever someone claims to see in a photo could also be fruit pulp ... going with the theory the blood can be confused with fruit pulp.

 

[otto]

Yes, true, but the simple fact that Luminol reacted does not mean it was in fact human blood causing the reaction. And no dna found would point to it being a reaction to something other than blood. I did find the post by the chemist here (can't recall nickname) to be quite reasonable as to why dna may be there (skin cells from feet).

I would very much like to read about a case in the US where the arguments used to discredit the luminol evidence in this case have been successfully presented in a criminal trial in the US. If this is the first time that these claims are being used to discredit luminol evidence, and the claims are only made by people that would never present the same claims as experts in a criminal trial, then I think it's not worth debating. It takes on the appearance of being a good enough argument for a case in Italy, but not good enough for a US trial ... giving me the impression that it is an argument without substance.

 

[otto]

No citation was given to back that claim up. However, I also found this in the article I cited: "DNA tests performed in 2007, prior to Taylor’s innocence hearing, showed the stain was not blood." I would like to have more information, but it sounds as if they looked for forensic DNA but did not find it. Food for thought.

Regarding Deaver, nothing he did is valid:

"A blood-stain analyst who was fired from the state crime lab amid questions about the state crime lab’s policies and procedures says he feels that he has become the scapegoat for problems in the crime lab.

...
An independent review of the crime lab concluded that SBI analysts had frequently misstated or falsely reported blood evidence in about 200 criminal cases during a 16-year period ending in 2003

An independent review of the crime lab concluded that SBI analysts had frequently misstated or falsely reported blood evidence in about 200 criminal cases during a 16-year period ending in 2003

 

[otto]

With respect the footprints do not go out the door.

Where do they go?

 

[Myvice]

I suspect the police would have asked the cleaning lady if RS had a mop. That would be a simple enough factor to find out, I am sure if she said yes, the prosecutor would be making the same argument you are making

And what is the implication, that AK and RS were tracking through Perugia with a bloody mop to clean it at RS apartment? How stupid would that be to be caught walking the streets w a bloody mop? Surely, they would have cleaned the mop at the murder scene instead of trolling around Perugia w a bloody mop to clean at his apartment. And there is no evidence they had cans of bleach at the apartment.

There was bleach at RS, one full can and one only very partially used.

One also supposes AK and RS to be CSI experts, to know that bleach kills DNA. Maybe RS knew that but I doubt AK or RG did.

As I stated in my post it was a suggestion and not a fact. Any one that has watched any of the CSI or other crime shows would know that bleach kills DNA. Rinsing the mop and taking it to Raff's to wash in bleach is no more stupid than suggesting that he had nothing in his flat to clean the mess from the sink pipe. That is just ridiculous IMO.

Considering all the info of importance that Amanda and Raff couldn't recall I find it strange the details they remember of such insignificant happenings. To me that makes them suspicious. Namely taking the mop to Raff's, the door was open, and Raff reporting a burglary but stating nothing was missing to name a few.

 

[SMK]

What is so big about the locked door? What do you mean by "big deal"? What is the logic by which fact number 2 is disturbing? I don't think you can count the murder wiki's tone of it being a "big deal." I think you need to look to look at what she actually said and then decide for yourself. People emphasize different things in different conversations, I don't see what the argument is here for why disturbing.

I know the logic for 1, but I think that it proved wrong by looking at the phone records.

Why would an abrupt about-face on this issue NOT be a big deal, and disturbing?????

 

[Yellow]

With respect the footprints do not go out the door.

I guess I meant out of the door of the murder room, in the hallway and up to the front door area. Very clear trail. Why aren't there any for the other suspects in the murder room?

 

[Yellow]

As I stated in my post it was a suggestion and not a fact. Any one that has watched any of the CSI or other crime shows would know that bleach kills DNA. Rinsing the mop and taking it to Raff's to wash in bleach is no more stupid than suggesting that he had nothing in his flat to clean the mess from the sink pipe. That is just ridiculous IMO.

Considering all the info of importance that Amanda and Raff couldn't recall I find it strange the details they remember of such insignificant happenings. To me that makes them suspicious. Namely taking the mop to Raff's, the door was open, and Raff reporting a burglary but stating nothing was missing to name a few.

There is no evidence of any rinsing of the mop in the sink. It also supposes AK and RS watch those shows, we have no idea what they watch

Of course RS might reported a possible robbery when it looked like a robbery, when asked what was stolen, he did not know, so he said nothing was stolen. He probably should have added "to my knowledge." His failure to do that somehow means something?

 

[geevee]

I think the theory was more popular a few decades ago, but I've always thought it was more fiction than fact. For example, Charles Manson wanted investigators to believe that a satanic cult was behind the murders that his gang committed. As we saw with the Laci Peterson murder, there are still situations where tips require that police pursue the theory.

Not that it matters but I was under the impression he was trying to start a race war (helter skelter) but I do recall lots of mention of satanic cults during that trial (and in the 70's). But it wasn't true then, and it hasn't seemed to have been the case in any other murder I can think of where the term was thrown around, I just wondered if any LE/investigator ever seriously believed a cult could be responsible for nearly any murder, or if it's mainly tabloid barking.

 

[Yellow]

Why would an abrupt about-face on this issue NOT be a big deal, and disturbing?????

I was asking what was the specific facts of this incident you are referring to. What one considers an "abrupt about face" may not be seen the same by others. People emphasize different things in different conversations, that does not mean it is an "about face." I also think one needs to rely on actual testimony rather than just take the murder wiki at its word that it was an "about face."

But I don't really know the specific facts you are referring here to be able to make an informed judgment on what you are referring to.

 

[otto]

This is what Massei stated: footwear for Guede ... down the corridor and to the exit.

 

[geevee]

The theory is that luminol evidence is unreliable. One arguments that has been presented is that luminol reacts with fruit pulp, therefore the footprints could have been created with fruit pulp.

It is impossible to look at a photograph and conclude that blood droplets were on a body. I was joking when I suggested that whatever someone claims to see in a photo could also be fruit pulp ... going with the theory the blood can be confused with fruit pulp.

I see, thanks for the explanation Otto, I was quite confused as to where the fruit pulp came into the story/theory and who brought it in (prosecutor, defense, etc.).

I agree you can't determine blood from a photograph, but I think you can make a reasonable inference that if a neck is cut, and there is blood in the vicinity from the cut, the drops on the chest would most likely be blood (but of course must be tested). But maybe not with Luminol. lol

 

[otto]

Why would an abrupt about-face on this issue NOT be a big deal, and disturbing?????

Knox claimed that Meredith's locked door was normal. Filomina was very upset to learn that Meredith's door was locked and stated that the only time it had been locked was when Meredith visited England. It was such a big deal that Meredith's bedroom door was broken because it was locked. Filomina was very concerned that Knox claimed the locked door was normal.