Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#6

[Sigh Sister]

The prosecutor investigated and detained several suspects without any connection to a satanic ritual. Satanic ritual has been suspected in many cases. In fact, when Laci Peterson was missing, satanic ritual was discussed.

Perhaps Preston should write about the Modesto police next.

"It's a theory that sounds like a script from a 1970s horror flick, but the idea that Laci Peterson could be a victim of a satanic cult was in fact part of the police investigation before her body was even found."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125146

Of course they had no connection to a satanic cult, but he thought they did. Twenty people were indicted, but the charges were thrown out as unfounded.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/monster...osecutors-satanic-theories-rejected-by-judge/

And had the satanic cult angle been pursued in the Laci Peterson case without any evidence, I would feel the same about that prosecutor.

Do you think it was reasonable for Mignini to conclude that there must have been a double body switch with Narducci?

 

[SMK]

IMO the bra was torn, not cut. Finding droplets on the bra does not preclude finding them on her breasts as well; that would be faulty logic. That there is a stenciled area is an extrapolation from the facts, not a fact in inself. I suggest asking someone who has the autopsy photos.

I believe they said the bra was cut, with a knife, and that both straps and the clasp were broken. (in fact this was said on the wiki, but it should be referenced or its not fact)

 

[geevee]

I have no doubt that someone on another forum made the claim, but that does not make it true. There was blood on the bra, making it clear that Meredith was wearing it when she was attacked. When she was found, the bra had been cut off. The bra left a stencil such that there was no blood underneath the bra. That is what we know. Without a reference to blood droplets in that stencil area, the claim is nothing more than an imagining; an unfounded attempt to negate the evidence that there was staging and that Meredith was moved after the murder, an attempt to skew the facts.

Do you think the sexual assault was also staging? Removing the bra makes no sense to me as a part of staging when there's evidence of a sexual assault and RG's dna inside of her.

 

[otto]

@Otto: Do you happen to know if there is a report that supports these 2 enumerated facts, or if they are in Massei? I am going to check the latter in the meantime; thanks.

I have searched a bit, but haven't found it in testimony that I've looked at so far. I'll keep looking for the statement from witnesses that Knox and Sollecito went to her bedroom and closed the door. I know I read it somewhere a long time ago.

 

[otto]

I did not say luminol; I said presumptive blood tests in general. In the Taylor case, it was phenolphthalein. The presumptive blood tests in question all use the pseudoperoxidase activity of hemoglobin to bring about a chemical reaction. That means that any substance which catalyzes the reaction will produce a positive result. This includes animal blood, BTW.

The forensic expert in the NC case made up his results and lied in court. Many cases were re-examined due to his dishonesty. That problem with the expert is unrelated to my question.

My question relates to luminol. There is such an earnest effort to discredit the luminol evidence in this case. Surely this is not the first case where there is an attempt to discredit luminol with the same arguments. Surely there are numerous cases in the US where these same arguments have been successfully used in criminal trials. I am asking for any criminal trial where these same arguments have been successfully used.

 

[SMK]

I have searched a bit, but haven't found it in testimony that I've looked at so far. I'll keep looking for the statement from witnesses that Knox and Sollecito went to her bedroom and closed the door. I know I read it somewhere a long time ago.

Thanks---I will try and look later too, so if you don't have time, no problem.

 

[Harmony 2]

As we all know, the times in his motivation report, don't jive with other times. So let us start with the telephone times.

If one recalls, there are a number of masts in the vacinity and PLE only supplied the cell records for one of them, when in fact one call in particular pinged off of a mast it never had previously.

Here are the cell phone records. For the correct ones, please refer to the Appeal of RS.

Calls from November 1 after 18:00

Time Length Type From To Location (Content Summary)

20:18:12 1sec SMS Patrick Amanda via Ulisse Rocchi (You don't have to come to work tonight)
20:35:48 1sec SMS Amanda Patrick corso Garibaldi ("Ci vediamo piu tardi. Buona serata.")
20:42:58 221sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele corso Garibaldi (Raffaele mentions washing dishes, leak under sink, trip to Gubbio)
20:56:?? 1sec Call MeredithUK Arline via della Pergola (Call didn't go through)
21:58:?? 1sec Call MeredithUK ans. serv. via della Pergola (Call didn't go through)
22:00:00 1sec Call MeredithUK Abbey via della Pergola ("Abbey" dialed without international prefix, didn't go through)
22:13:19 9sec GPRS Internet WAP MeredithUK via della Pergola (Aborted connection of undetermined type)


Calls from November 2

Time Length Type From To Location (Content summary)

00:10:31 1sec Call ? Meredith UK via Sperandio

06:02:69 1sec SMS Dr Soll Raffaele corso Garibaldi (Buona notte, SMS sent by Dr Soll at 23:14 on Nov 1)
09:24 248sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele (Absent from mobile records, no cell tower mentioned)
09:29 38sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele (Absent from mobile records, no cell tower mentioned)
09:30:42 41sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele corso Garibaldi (Haven't you left for Gubbio yet?)
12:07:12 16sec Call Amanda MeredithUK corso Garibaldi (Ringing no answer)
12:08:44 58sec Call Amanda Filomena corso Garibaldi (Saw worrisome things in the house, door open, traces of blood)
12:11:02 3sec Call Amanda MeredithIT corso Garibaldi (Voice mail)
12:11:54 4sec Call Amanda MeredithUK corso Garibaldi ( Automatic voice saying "out of service")
12:12:35 36sec Call Filomena Amanda corso Garibaldi (Unsuccessful?)
12:20:44 65sec Call Filomena Amanda corso Garibaldi (Unsuccessful?)
12:34:56 48sec Call Filomena Amanda via della Pergola (Broken window, room ransacked...)
12:35:08 135sec Call Raffaele Vodafone via della Pergola (credit recharge)
12:38:17 1sec SMS Vodafone Raffaele via della Pergola (confirm recharge)
12:40:03 67sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele via della Pergola
12:47:23 88sec Call Amanda Edda via della Pergola (There are some strange things here)
12:50:34 39sec Call Raffaele Vanessa via della Pergola (Call to Vanessa for advice)
12:51:40 169sec Call Raffaele 112 via della Pergola (first 112 call)
12:54:39 57sec Call Raffaele 112 via della Pergola (second 112 call)
13:24:18 162sec Call Amanda Edda via della Pergola ("A foot")
13:27:32 26sec Call Amanda Chris? via della Pergola (Another Seattle number)
13:29:00 296sec Call Carabinieri Amanda via della Pergola (Asking for directions to cottage)

I can accept all sorts of refutations, but the couple of things which still bother me and prevent me from just hopping on the "they are being railroaded" bandwagon (although I do believe it is important to always keep such a possibility well in mind):

1. The report that Knox and Sollecito disappeared into Knox's bedroom when others arrived and the Postal Police began speaking to these people. The fact that this 10 minute time period reported by others seemed to coincide with their 2 calls to 112. (as if they were now forced to call, and had wanted to delay)

2. The fact that in her email home and to FR on the phone, Knox made a big deal about the locked door and said RS had attempted to kick it in, only to act like it was of no concern to the Postal Police. This is disturbing and rankles the mind.

**The 2 above-stated facts were taken from the murder wiki: If its authors have fabricated these details (as I feel someone will say) then I myself have been led afield. How can I determine if these 2 are true?

Perhaps your answer to number 1 is in the timeline of calls delineated in the post above.

 

[otto]

IMO the bra was torn, not cut. Finding droplets on the bra does not preclude finding them on her breasts as well; that would be faulty logic. That there is a stenciled area is an extrapolation from the facts, not a fact in inself. I suggest asking someone who has the autopsy photos.

Is it possible to identify blood droplets from a photo? Couldn't it be fruit pulp?

 

[otto]

Of course they had no connection to a satanic cult, but he thought they did. Twenty people were indicted, but the charges were thrown out as unfounded.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/monster...osecutors-satanic-theories-rejected-by-judge/

And had the satanic cult angle been pursued in the Laci Peterson case without any evidence, I would feel the same about that prosecutor.

Do you think it was reasonable for Mignini to conclude that there must have been a double body switch with Narducci?

I don't know what investigators were thinking when they investigated the satanic cult theory in the Laci Peterson case, but that was indeed one of the theories that they had to investigate. The same situation occurred with the Monster of Florence case. I'm not sure why Preston is concerned about what theories investigators are obligated to pursue, but one thing is clear: he sure has it in for the prosecutor in Perugia, and we know that this is because he was angry after he was questioned for interfering in that investigation.

 

[Yellow]

I have wondered if the mop used for the clean up was Raff's and that was part of what was cleaned at his house with bleach. Surely he had a mop if he had a cleaning lady. The whole story about the pipe breaking and not cleaning it up is so far fetched. These aren't children for crying out loud. Who would know if she was bringing the mop from her place to Raff's or from Raff's to her place?

Seems like a good way to deflect attention, IMO.

If they were using that mop to clean up the murder, ie blood, wouldn't MK blood be all over that mop?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The forensic expert in the NC case made up his results and lied in court. Many cases were re-examined due to his dishonesty. That problem with the expert is unrelated to my question.

My understanding is that Deaver failed to report negative results. Did you read the link I provided? "Ralph Keaton, the assistant SBI lab director at the time, said under oath in May that Deaver didn’t have to report the negative test results. Defendants are constitutionally entitled to exculpatory evidence, which is anything that could suggest their innocence. Keaton insists those negative blood tests aren’t information Taylor had a right to know." In this respect the Lovejoy case is a closer parallel to the present case.

In the Chamberlain case, "Mrs Julie Fry had taken an interest in the evidence given by the Crown during the trial. She had not been happy with the fact that Kuhl had concluded that human blood had been proven to be present simply on the basis of faint reactions from the orthotolidine tests. In her opinion, these tests, especially when conducted on invisible stains as Kuhl had done, only revealed peroxidase-like activity, which can be achieved from many substances such as milk and vegetables as well as blood. Without further testing it was impossible to conclude the presence of human blood. Tipple wanted to investigate her claims further and gave the job to Madigan and Hosken."

 

[Yellow]

I can accept all sorts of refutations, but the couple of things which still bother me and prevent me from just hopping on the "they are being railroaded" bandwagon (although I do believe it is important to always keep such a possibility well in mind):

1. The report that Knox and Sollecito disappeared into Knox's bedroom when others arrived and the Postal Police began speaking to these people. The fact that this 10 minute time period reported by others seemed to coincide with their 2 calls to 112. (as if they were now forced to call, and had wanted to delay)

2. The fact that in her email home and to FR on the phone, Knox made a big deal about the locked door and said RS had attempted to kick it in, only to act like it was of no concern to the Postal Police. This is disturbing and rankles the mind.

**The 2 above-stated facts were taken from the murder wiki: If its authors have fabricated these details (as I feel someone will say) then I myself have been led afield. How can I determine if these 2 are true?

What is so big about the locked door? What do you mean by "big deal"? What is the logic by which fact number 2 is disturbing? I don't think you can count the murder wiki's tone of it being a "big deal." I think you need to look to look at what she actually said and then decide for yourself. People emphasize different things in different conversations, I don't see what the argument is here for why disturbing.

I know the logic for 1, but I think that it proved wrong by looking at the phone records.

 

[otto]

My understanding is that Deaver failed to report negative results. Did you read the link I provided? "Ralph Keaton, the assistant SBI lab director at the time, said under oath in May that Deaver didn’t have to report the negative test results. Defendants are constitutionally entitled to exculpatory evidence, which is anything that could suggest their innocence. Keaton insists those negative blood tests aren’t information Taylor had a right to know." In this respect the Lovejoy case is a closer parallel to the present case.

In the Chamberlain case, "Mrs Julie Fry had taken an interest in the evidence given by the Crown during the trial. She had not been happy with the fact that Kuhl had concluded that human blood had been proven to be present simply on the basis of faint reactions from the orthotolidine tests. In her opinion, these tests, especially when conducted on invisible stains as Kuhl had done, only revealed peroxidase-like activity, which can be achieved from many substances such as milk and vegetables as well as blood. Without further testing it was impossible to conclude the presence of human blood. Tipple wanted to investigate her claims further and gave the job to Madigan and Hosken."

Deaver was fired for manufacturing results. Michael Peterson's conviction was overturned because of Deaver's dishonesty. It doesn't matter what Deaver did because everything he did related to forensic analysis has been completely discredited.

My interest is in US cases where luminol evidence has been discredited. US experts are behind an attempt to discredit the luminol results in this case. Surely these same experts have testified that luminol evidence is not reliable in the past ... or is this simply a case where US experts are happy to say whatever they want when they are not required to testify as experts, but they would never present the same theories in a US courtroom?

 

[geevee]

The forensic expert in the NC case made up his results and lied in court. Many cases were re-examined due to his dishonesty. That problem with the expert is unrelated to my question.

My question relates to luminol. There is such an earnest effort to discredit the luminol evidence in this case. Surely this is not the first case where there is an attempt to discredit luminol with the same arguments. Surely there are numerous cases in the US where these same arguments have been successfully used in criminal trials. I am asking for any criminal trial where these same arguments have been successfully used.

Luminol is only a presumptive test, if seconday tests did not find dna in the Luminol treated areas, then it was obviously reacting to something other than human blood, seem to me.

 

[Myvice]

If they were using that mop to clean up the murder, ie blood, wouldn't MK blood be all over that mop?

I suggested that they had used a mop from Raffeale's flat to clean the scene then cleaned his mop with the bleach that the police smelled when they went to his flat. It would be a clever diversion, IMO.

I don't believe that Raff didn't have a mop. He had a cleaning lady so he must have had supplies. I think I read that when questioned, she stated that there was bleach in the house than later recanted.

 

[geevee]

Is it possible to identify blood droplets from a photo? Couldn't it be fruit pulp?

Where does the fruit pulp come into the picture?

 

[otto]

Where does the fruit pulp come into the picture?

Luminol evidence has been described as fruit pulp.
Since when is it possible to identify blood droplets from a photo?

 

[otto]

Luminol is only a presumptive test, if seconday tests did not find dna in the Luminol treated areas, then it was obviously reacting to something other than human blood, seem to me.

I think it's been discussed that luminol can detect blood even if it is not possible to identify the DNA in the blood. Blood evidence does not always reveal DNA.

 

[Yellow]

- All Luminol spots are evidence of cleaning since they were invisible. The footprints were not clear, they were blurry, and some even just half.
- The bathmat footprint was only half and no footprints leading to it. Somebody cleaned those footprints.
- Blood spots all over the bathmat, foot washing in bidet, and not a single spot on the floor seems unlikely. The other half of the bathmat print was cleaned as well. It seems the whole bathroom floor was mopped.
- The sink and bidet were cleaned.
- The trace on the side of the door seemed to have been part of a larger trace. As if somebody cleaned front/back of a closed door and forgot to check the side.
- The small shoeprint on the pillow is a standalone. Where are the other shoe prints?
JMO.

RG's shoeprints in visible blood were out of the murder room and out the door. Given the bloody bathmat and other blood around, I guess MK was right in AK being w horrible cleaner, she cannot even clean a murder scene up right.

 

[geevee]

I don't know what investigators were thinking when they investigated the satanic cult theory in the Laci Peterson case, but that was indeed one of the theories that they had to investigate. The same situation occurred with the Monster of Florence case. I'm not sure why Preston is concerned about what theories investigators are obligated to pursue, but one thing is clear: he sure has it in for the prosecutor in Perugia, and we know that this is because he was angry after he was questioned for interfering in that investigation.

Can someone tell me how often a 'satanic cult' has been responsible for a crime scene/murder? I see the term/theory pop up now and again and for the life of me I can't recall in recent memory when that's turned out to be the case. I don't mean Heavens Gaters or such, but actual murders where it was found to be the work of a cult with Satan as their leader (or whatever).