Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#6

[SMK]

I can accept all sorts of refutations, but the couple of things which still bother me and prevent me from just hopping on the "they are being railroaded" bandwagon (although I do believe it is important to always keep such a possibility well in mind):

1. The report that Knox and Sollecito disappeared into Knox's bedroom when others arrived and the Postal Police began speaking to these people. The fact that this 10 minute time period reported by others seemed to coincide with their 2 calls to 112. (as if they were now forced to call, and had wanted to delay)

2. The fact that in her email home and to FR on the phone, Knox made a big deal about the locked door and said RS had attempted to kick it in, only to act like it was of no concern to the Postal Police. This is disturbing and rankles the mind.

**The 2 above-stated facts were taken from the murder wiki: If its authors have fabricated these details (as I feel someone will say) then I myself have been led afield. How can I determine if these 2 are true?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Can you cite a case in the US where luminol evidence was discredited with a similar argument? If luminol evidence is such a problem, surely there are many cases where this has already been argued.

Both the Lindy Chamberlain (Australia) case and the Gregory Taylor (North Carolina, USA) case involve misinterpreted and/or misreported presumptive blood tests.

 

[otto]

In the Massei report, p. 121, Professor Bacci "dismissed" a mark on Meredith as being livor mortis (it was a bruise).

There's nothing on page 121 in the Massei Report about a bruise on Meredith's shoulder.

 

[SMK]

In the Massei report, p. 121, Professor Bacci "dismissed" a mark on Meredith as being livor mortis (it was a bruise).

Was there a counter-expert who viewed the mark as lividity?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

BBM

That has been mentioned in this discussion before, but there doesn't seem to be any official link to this information. Without referencing an opinion from someone not involved in the case, is there a link?

At this time, the claim appears to be something that is stated repeatedly with the hope that people begin to believe that it is true.

No more so than the claim that her breasts did not have droplets. The fact that it is not in the Massei report is interesting.

 

[SMK]

There's nothing on page 121 in the Massei Report about a bruise on Meredith's shoulder.

There is mention of lividity, but it is all a discussion about possible sexual assault, and a corresponding examination , plus a bruise at thigh level. Yes, no mention of the shoulder. Maybe he has the p wrong...

 

[otto]

Both the Lindy Chamberlain (Australia) case and the Gregory Taylor (North Carolina, USA) case involve misinterpreted and/or misreported presumptive blood tests.

The NC case you referenced relates to forensic expert that was fired for many reasons, but it is not a case where luminol evidence was completely discredited. In fact, luminol is not mentioned in the article.

How was luminol used in the Australian case and how was luminol evidence discredited when a baby was taken from a camp site by a dingo?

Essentially, there are no cases in the US where luminol has been completely discredited with the same arguments that are used to discredit luminol in this case?

 

[SMK]

No more so than the claim that her breasts did not have droplets. The fact that it is not in the Massei report is interesting.

Yes, I was surprised to find out just today that the whole issue was dropped from Massei (about who might have moved the body, etc.--totally dropped.)

 

[Sigh Sister]

Actually, it was the prosecutor that upset Preston. Preston was questioned because he was interfering in a murder investigation. He felt threatened and that made him angry. He seems to be angry about this still today. Many theories were developed regarding the identity of the person(s) responsible for the murders. Many suspects were investigated. The case is still unsolved and theories are still being considered. If Preston fixated on one of the many theories, that is his mistake.

When Knox was arrested and Mignini was the prosecutor, Preston, who is still angry with the prosecutor today, saw this as an opportunity to smear the prosecutor's reputation. He has done everything possible to damage the reputation of the prosecutor because he had his wrists slapped for interfering with the Monster of Florence investigation.

Yes, many people were investigated. IIRC, Mignini accused 20 or so people of being involved in some bizarre conspiracy. I don't understand what you mean by the bolded sentence. Can you clarify?

 

[otto]

No more so than the claim that her breasts did not have droplets. The fact that it is not in the Massei report is interesting.

So there is no reference for the claim that there were blood droplets underneath the bra ... it's something created out of thin air?

 

[otto]

Yes, many people were investigated. IIRC, Mignini accused 20 or so people of being involved in some bizarre conspiracy. I don't understand what you mean by the bolded sentence. Can you clarify?

If Preston fixated on a satanic connection, then that is his mistake.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

There's nothing on page 121 in the Massei Report about a bruise on Meredith's shoulder.

"He dismissed the possibility of interpreting these ecchymotic areas in terms of hypostasis *death lividity+, noting that ‚such peripheral areas are ... typical of scratches and small haemorrhages and small abrasions" (page 16, transcripts). Professor Bacci also considered..." Professor Bacci was a witness for the prosecution IIUC. Ecchymosis is defined as "The passage of blood from ruptured blood vessels into subcutaneous tissue, marked by a purple discoloration of the skin." It is not entirely clear where the marks in question are, although from the context of the passage, it may have been near Meredith's genital area, as opposed to her shoulder (having his testimony or report would help clear this up). However, this is the only portion of the Massei report that mentions lividity or livor mortis, if I am not mistaken. Therefore, I don't believe that Massei used an argument about lividity to reach his decision.

 

[Sigh Sister]

If Preston fixated on a satanic connection, then that is his mistake.

Mignini is the one who came up with the bizarre theory and fixated on it. Preston and Spezi wrote about it.

 

[otto]

"He dismissed the possibility of interpreting these ecchymotic areas in terms of hypostasis *death lividity+, noting that ‚such peripheral areas are ... typical of scratches and small haemorrhages and small abrasions" (page 16, transcripts). Professor Bacci also considered..." Professor Bacci was a witness for the prosecution IIUC. Ecchymosis is defined as "The passage of blood from ruptured blood vessels into subcutaneous tissue, marked by a purple discoloration of the skin."

He does not mention the shoulder. Initially, it was believed that there was lividity on the shoulder. I understood that this was later understood to be blood from bleeding out, that Meredith was turned in such a way that the blood pooled under the shoulder. When she was found, she was not in a position such that the blood would pool in the area of the shoulder.

 

[otto]

Mignini is the one who came up with the bizarre theory and fixated on it. Preston and Spezi wrote about it.

The prosecutor investigated and detained several suspects without any connection to a satanic ritual. Satanic ritual has been suspected in many cases. In fact, when Laci Peterson was missing, satanic ritual was discussed.

Perhaps Preston should write about the Modesto police next.

"It's a theory that sounds like a script from a 1970s horror flick, but the idea that Laci Peterson could be a victim of a satanic cult was in fact part of the police investigation before her body was even found."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125146

 

[Chris_Halkides]

So there is no reference for the claim that there were blood droplets underneath the bra ... it's something created out of thin air?

There is no reference for the claim that blood droplets were not found there, but I agree that blood was found on the bra itself (and I think someone posted a photo to that effect). <modsnip> That is as much as I can say.

 

[SMK]

I can accept all sorts of refutations, but the couple of things which still bother me and prevent me from just hopping on the "they are being railroaded" bandwagon (although I do believe it is important to always keep such a possibility well in mind):

1. The report that Knox and Sollecito disappeared into Knox's bedroom when others arrived and the Postal Police began speaking to these people. The fact that this 10 minute time period reported by others seemed to coincide with their 2 calls to 112. (as if they were now forced to call, and had wanted to delay)

2. The fact that in her email home and to FR on the phone, Knox made a big deal about the locked door and said RS had attempted to kick it in, only to act like it was of no concern to the Postal Police. This is disturbing and rankles the mind.

**The 2 above-stated facts were taken from the murder wiki: If its authors have fabricated these details (as I feel someone will say) then I myself have been led afield. How can I determine if these 2 are true?

@Otto: Do you happen to know if there is a report that supports these 2 enumerated facts, or if they are in Massei? I am going to check the latter in the meantime; thanks.

 

[otto]

There is no reference for the claim that blood droplets were not found there, but I agree that blood was found on the bra itself (and I think someone posted a photo to that effect). <modsnip> That is as much as I can say.

I have no doubt that someone on another forum made the claim, but that does not make it true. There was blood on the bra, making it clear that Meredith was wearing it when she was attacked. When she was found, the bra had been cut off. The bra left a stencil such that there was no blood underneath the bra. That is what we know. Without a reference to blood droplets in that stencil area, the claim is nothing more than an imagining; an unfounded attempt to negate the evidence that there was staging and that Meredith was moved after the murder, an attempt to skew the facts.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The NC case you referenced relates to forensic expert that was fired for many reasons, but it is not a case where luminol evidence was completely discredited. In fact, luminol is not mentioned in the article.

How was luminol used in the Australian case and how was luminol evidence discredited when a baby was taken from a camp site by a dingo?

I did not say luminol; I said presumptive blood tests in general. In the Taylor case, it was phenolphthalein. The presumptive blood tests in question all use the pseudoperoxidase activity of hemoglobin to bring about a chemical reaction. That means that any substance which catalyzes the reaction will produce a positive result. This includes animal blood, BTW.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I have no doubt that someone on another forum made the claim, but that does not make it true. There was blood on the bra, making it clear that Meredith was wearing it when she was attacked. When she was found, the bra had been cut off. The bra left a stencil such that there was no blood underneath the bra. That is what we know. Without a reference to blood droplets in that stencil area, the claim is nothing more than an imagining; an unfounded attempt to negate the evidence that there was staging and that Meredith was moved after the murder, an attempt to skew the facts.

IMO the bra was torn, not cut. Finding droplets on the bra does not preclude finding them on her breasts as well; that would be faulty logic. That there is a stenciled area is an extrapolation from the facts, not a fact in inself. I suggest asking someone who has the autopsy photos.