ARDI -- new hope The return of the IDI

[Roy23]

JR and PR showed no signs of having been in a violent altercation, while JBR obviously did. There were no injuries to JR or PR. There was no smoking gun evidence found on the clothing JR or PR were wearing at that time. I think it can be safely assumed JR and PR's clothing were checked thouroughly for any signs of the altercation.

And that says volumes. You are on it. In Dave's defense, especially his brother's thoughts, he has a few things in his favor as well. While I believe that someone who kills like this has a pattern of behavior, nothing has transpired to identify the killer. You would think that they would have tied this to another crime. I have read about the case that Voyich (sp) harps on, they can't tie it with physical evidence. At least nothing that they are telling us. We are also finding out more about females causing sexual abuse on young girls. (Sandra Cantu).

This bothers me with some of the inconsistancies. And that is why I try to keep an open mind. But, yeah, I think it is unknown intruder if a gun is held to my head.

 

[voynich]

well. While I believe that someone who kills like this has a pattern of behavior, nothing has transpired to identify the killer. You would think that they would have tied this to another crime. I have read about the case that Voyich (sp) harps on, they can't tie it with physical evidence. At least nothing that they are telling us. my head.

"The first thing that occurred to us was that it was the parallel to the Ramsey case because it was exactly the same situation," says Amy's father, who even told the Boulder police about the Dance West studio connection to the Ramsey case. "I think someone, somewhere, drew a bead on her. Obviously had us under surveillance that we were not aware of."

"They were very frustrated," says Peterson. "It was difficult to get them to do anything much less, you know, beyond taking a report."


That's when Amy's family hired Peterson. What he has uncovered in his investigation may not only solve Amy's case, but also help lead to the capture of JonBenet's killer.​

I offer behavioral evidence.

What ARDI does show is that at least 1 perp out there fulfills the criteria of an intruder who could enter a home, while family is away, wait there for hours, assault a minor, via oral sex and digital, choke and overpower, threatened her, while parents are present, done intelligence, risk getting caught, quickly exit, within 9 months and 2 miles of the R's.

I admit I have hard time actually picturing this, since AR has 2 hands and he would have to spread Amy's legs while Amy had 2 hands and 2 legs to fight back, to perform cunnlingus. It does seem obvious if Amy had attempted to scream, AR would have silenced her.


Is there a statute of limitations on rape?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Modus Operandi: Robbery, bludgeoning, strangulation
Victim Disposal: Left them where they were murdered
Signature: Beat most victims in head with hammer then strangled them with their underwear or pantyhose.

This is from another 'serial' type killer.

I'd say JBR's killer's MO is closer to this killer's MO than the MO of whoever assaulted Amy, because JBR wasn't just murdered. Contrary to popular RDI myths, JBR was in fact brutally murdered. Not too unlike the victims of this other serial killer.

While there may be similarities between entry, exit and victim, Amy was not murdered. That makes it a different class of crime. Again, JBR wasn't just murdered, she was viciously murdered by someone who was also willing to make reference to beheading a small child, when doing so was superfluous to kidnap for ransom.

 

[voynich]

Modus Operandi: Robbery, bludgeoning, strangulation
Victim Disposal: Left them where they were murdered
Signature: Beat most victims in head with hammer then strangled them with their underwear or pantyhose.

This is from another 'serial' type killer.

I'd say JBR's killer's MO is closer to this killer's MO than the MO of whoever assaulted Amy, because JBR wasn't just murdered. Contrary to popular RDI myths, JBR was in fact brutally murdered. Not too unlike the victims of this other serial killer.

While there may be similarities between entry, exit and victim, Amy was not murdered. That makes it a different class of crime. Again, JBR wasn't just murdered, she was viciously murdered by someone who was also willing to make reference to beheading a small child, when doing so was superfluous to kidnap for ransom.

Sounds like Boston strangler?

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."​

This crime in progress was interrupted, and he threatened to knock her out.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Sounds like Boston strangler?

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."
​

This crime in progress was interrupted, and he threatened to knock her out.

It seems to me, though, that the brutality, the murderous violence is obviously missing. A hand over the mouth, and an unarmed sexual assault? Plus, I'm not sure if a perp is going to go from an elaborate ransom note kidnap basement scenario, with parents two floors away, to mom in the next room within earshot while he talks. Did JBR's intruder take a stupid pill? Where did the brutality go?

 

[LinasK]

In fact, the Boulder police dismissed any links to the Ramsey case and didn't bother to make a composite sketch of the intruder based on the mother's eyewitness description.

Boulder LE seriously that incompetent? Regardless of any connection w/R's, this is still a rape crime against a minor. At the very least, they should have drawn a composite and spread it in the proper channels.

IF that incompetent it makes me wonder about everything else.

Yeah, they were, at least Linda Arndt was by letting John search the house by himself, then letting him and Patsy contaminate the evidence when John carried the body upstairs instead of calling for LE to process it where it was, then Patsy proceeds to fall all over the body in her Lazarus speech under the Christmas tree.

 

[BBB167893]

We are behind internet walls but I have tons of respect for you. Anyone who throws all their effort into whatever their agenda is, I believe they can accomplish anything. I hope to teach my son the same hard working attitude. I want you to know that. To write a book on this case and expect to succeed without being an insider, God Bless you. I know you aren't doing it for money, but to accomplish your goal that is a by product of it and I would love to see you get it. Heck, I mean just get it published.

This is truly high praise. And I shall not forget it.
I've always tried to exceed my limitations. I don't believe in limitations.

We could argue all day and get our panties in a wad. But this very issue we discuss will definitely be the single issue in your quest. You and I don't have the luxury of all the facts. And I am not a real student of all that has happened but I know a decent amount. I do know some about LE and DNA. What doesn't help my case is that I believe Boulder LE did a bad job but at least did due diligence on the DNA. In a case of this magnitude, with FBI and forensic science experts, they had to. Had they found the source of this DNA innocent, the Ramsey's go on trial. And the same holds true if they found it anytime between 1997 and 2006.

I'm not sure it was quite that simple. There were and are a few other stumbling blocks in that regard, but I've been over that.

I just want you to consider this. Try and consult a forensic expert to deny or confirm what I am saying. They have to answer cautiously but they know LE tactics, especially in a high profile case. I think they would absolutely tell you that a factory worker at a underwear plant is out and LE probably tested everyone she was in contact with on Christmas day. From there, you can make conclusions on your own.

Well, I've only had the pleasure of speaking to one forensic person. (Please, don't ask me who; I promised not to reveal names.) And to that end I can only say this: while this person did not buy the factory worker notion (didn't expect they would), they were quite clear that it's not quite the slam dunk it's been made out to be.

To kill someone by abuse, a lot of reactions occur from the killer to the victim. And the victim to the killer.

I guess it depends, though.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, they were, at least Linda Arndt was by letting John search the house by himself, then letting him and Patsy contaminate the evidence when John carried the body upstairs instead of calling for LE to process it where it was, then Patsy proceeds to fall all over the body in her Lazarus speech under the Christmas tree.

Linask! You're here at last. And not a moment too soon. Only your knowledge can help.

 

[LinasK]

At the very least, why didn't AR neutralize AR's mother -- BTK neutralized the entire family.

IF AR did leave an RN, and we know he said "I know your name ...Amy.. I know who you are....."

What would you expect a pedophile child rapist intruder perp who enters while the MOTHER is still there, say in an RN?

Here's a hint

"Listen carefully"

Most pedophile child rapists kidnappers remove the child from the home, commit their crimes elsewhere, and don't leave ransom notes. Having a parent in the home is NOT a deterrent. Prime examples: Polly Klass, Danielle Van Damme, and Sandra Cantu cases.

 

[LinasK]

"And then to be smart enough to put somebody else DNA and skin cells on top of it too." -

Within the RDI scenario, it could have just been blind luck .... perhaps using a glove belonging to another person would leave dna, but then how to explain the matching partial dna taken from JBR's fingernails, other than suggesting 'contamination'.

Then how do we innocently explain John's shirt fibers being found in JB's panties?????

 

[BBB167893]

JR and PR showed no signs of having been in a violent altercation, while JBR obviously did.

That's true. But it leaves out one very important thing (which I'm glad you brought up, BTW): JB didn't have a chance to clean herself up afterwards. Whereas we KNOW PR was still fully made up when she answered the door and JR had been showering.

Of course, that assumes that the violent altercation you speak of went both ways. I'm of the mind that it didn't. It's like when I was a kid and people would claim to have been in fights. I'd always say, "there was no fight; there were two hits. He hit you, and you hit the ground."

There were no injuries to JR or PR.

Is that really surprising? I realize that I only have circumstantial evidence for this conclusion, but I'm of the mind that JB didn't have a chance to fight, much less the inclination.

HOTYH, you've inspired me. I think this subject deserves its own thread.

There was no smoking gun evidence found on the clothing JR or PR were wearing at that time. I think it can be safely assumed JR and PR's clothing were checked thoroughly for any signs of the altercation.

If they had been checked out that day, I'd have to say you're right. But we KNOW (again, not disputed) that it was almost a year before the clothes were handed over to be tested.

 

[LinasK]

1. So the staging is a "failed" kidnapping with sexual abuse scenario? It seems strange that a stager (PR) adds a ransom note for a body that is still in the basement?Exactly! What kind of motherly figure "wraps" her beauty up, then stages a sexual-garroting? One like Patsy Ramsey, that has some remorse/feeling for their child. She also drew red hearts on JB's palms, much the the heart on the duct-tape in Caylee Anthony's case.

Kidnapper: He writes the ransom note BEFORE to delay the search (and mislead it) for what was going to be a sexual kidnap/murder scenario for him.

Hits girl on head, thinks she will be easy to get out with her unconscious. OR he tries to feed her pineapple, she refuses to go outside with him, then he hits her on the head.

Realizes he might have done overkill, brings her into the basement to chill and figure out what the heck to do. So he says to himself, already wrote the ransom note. But the girl is no longer of any use to him if she is really messed up (bleeding, etc). So he chokes her, puts here in the backroom and sets up a scene that gets him off, or whatever, and then bails. That's exactly what I think John did.

The main problem with this is why he didn't bring the body. But maybe he was too worried about a trail with the blood, and bringing her out the door.

2. If the Rs were truly innocent, it would explain some of their insane behavior. The problem is that their guilt would as well.

My responses are in red.

 

[LinasK]

Hey SD,

I did attribute those statements to SD-Won. Strictly speaking, if RDI is true, isn't THAT Jedi and IDI sith, from a certain point of view? Isn't the true power of the darkside

RST?

As a measure of my respect, I must say "I'm an IDI, like my father before me. Father, please, help me!" I am not an expert on girls hymens don't have anything to say. I'll have master YODA, the jedi master who trained me, to counter your torrent of evil blue sith lightening. Is there an obgyn-pediatrician in the house? I've not said much about it -- other than the bubble bath causing irritation. SD-WON I'm a sith lord and Matrix Agent, not a doctor! Anyone here up for pizza delivery? We should get together and get a pizza delivery and some top investigators and even CASKU folks.

anyhow, are you saying that Amy doesn't exist, it's a complete fabrication from the RST?

what aspects of Amy's rape did happen and how much is it pure fantasy?

"Amy" Attacker
The "Amy" Attacker Theory

* Another possibility is the intruder who, just 9 months after JBR's murder, surreptitiously entered a house while mother and daughter (known as "Amy") were present and sexually assaulted a 14 year girl who attended the Dance West, the same dance studio attended by JBR; this raises the possibility that the same individual stalked JBR after noticing her at the studio.

Incriminating Evidence Against the "Amy" Attacker

* * 14-Year Old Dancer. "Nine months after the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey, a girl who attended the same dance studio as the young beauty queen and lived just two miles away was assaulted in her bed by an intruder while her mother slept nearby." Possible similarities to the JBR killing include:

1. Attended Same Dance Studio. Girl performed at same dance studio as JBR took lessons: Dance West. Thus perp may have seen both girls at the same location.
2. Public Performances. Like JBR, Amy had performed in several public functions in Boulder in the year before her death, giving the perp another potential opportunity or motive for targeting her.
3. Close Proximity in Space and Time to JBR Killing. Amy lived 2 miles from Ramseys and the assault occurred on Sept. 14, 1997, only 9 months after JBR died.
4. Ease of Entry May Denote Prior Experience. "He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went." "By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this."
5. Family Away When Perp Entered House. The family was out of the house from late afternoon on the eve of the crime, until after dark. "That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside" (CBS News).
6. Perp Waited 4-6 Hours Before Entering Bedroom. The intruder may have waited at least four hours before entering Amy's second-floor bedroom. "Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding" (CBS News).
7. Sexual Assault Occurred at Night While Parent Sleeping. The perp found Amy in bed and assaulted her in the house while mother was sleeping. "Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'" (CBS News).
8. Sexual Assault Included Digital Penetration and Oral Sex. Amy was sexually assaulted by penetration of finger or object and orally​

ike JonBenet, she took lessons at Dance West. And like JonBenet, another girl, who is identified as "Amy," was attacked and sexually assaulted at night in her own bedroom on Sept. 14, 1997.

That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.

Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding."

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

"The first thing that occurred to us was that it was the parallel to the Ramsey case because it was exactly the same situation," says Amy's father, who even told the Boulder police about the Dance West studio connection to the Ramsey case. "I think someone, somewhere, drew a bead on her. Obviously had us under surveillance that we were not aware of."

The studio has since gone out of business and been torn down, but photos show that there was a balcony overlooking the dance floor where parents and anyone else could come in and watch the children.

But Amy's dad says that when he told the police detectives about the information he had, "they were completely uninterested in it."

"They were very frustrated," says Peterson. "It was difficult to get them to do anything much less, you know, beyond taking a report."

But not only did the Boulder police dismiss any link to the Ramsey case, they didn't even bother to use the mother's eyewitness description to make a composite sketch. That's when Amy's family hired Peterson. What he has uncovered in his investigation may not only solve Amy's case, but also help lead to the capture of JonBenet's killer.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml​

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"


So are you saying Amy made this story up, it's a complete whole-faced fabrication, part of a conspiracy theory to deflect attention from the R's?

Very Sith.

Honestly if this story is 100% fabrication isn't this like making a false police report?




"So you finally accepted the truth"

I don't doubt this girl was attacked, however, I see absolutely no connection to JB's murder, other than the odd coincidence that they both attended the same dance studio. So do lots of other unrelated girls. Millions of little girls take dance lessons, I did growing up, and my daughter does now. Red herring...

 

[LinasK]

In all seriousness, voynich, there's a poster by the hat of LinasK who you should talk to. If anyone can answer these questions, she's your best bet.

Thanks Dave, I'm here! I'm no doctor, but I worked in healthcare for many years, I have experience as a female and a mother, and most importantly, I am a molestation victim.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks Dave, I'm here! I'm no doctor, but I worked in healthcare for many years, I have experience as a female and a mother, and most importantly, I am a molestation victim.

That's why I wanted your input.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's true. But it leaves out one very important thing (which I'm glad you brought up, BTW): JB didn't have a chance to clean herself up afterwards. Whereas we KNOW PR was still fully made up when she answered the door and JR had been showering.

Of course, that assumes that the violent altercation you speak of went both ways. I'm of the mind that it didn't. It's like when I was a kid and people would claim to have been in fights. I'd always say, "there was no fight; there were two hits. He hit you, and you hit the ground."



Is that really surprising? I realize that I only have circumstantial evidence for this conclusion, but I'm of the mind that JB didn't have a chance to fight, much less the inclination.

HOTYH, you've inspired me. I think this subject deserves its own thread.



If they had been checked out that day, I'd have to say you're right. But we KNOW (again, not disputed) that it was almost a year before the clothes were handed over to be tested.

What you wish for me to believe, apparently, is that PR and JR were involved in an extraordinarily violent episode resulting in JBR's fractured skull, sexual injuries, and deep cord furrow in her neck with an associated large hemorrhage. Pens were used to write hundreds of words, pineapple was eaten, paintbrushes were broken, heads were bashed.

Yet, thru it all, the parents emerge without a single, overt 'smoking gun' sign. Not a scratch from anything on arms,face, or hands. No ink, no pineapple stain, no blood.

Additionally, multiple items intimate to the murder cannot be determined to have ever been at the R's house before.

These facts tend to preclude an accident scenario, the nature of an accident being usually accidental, unplanned, chaotic. Perhaps a premeditated plot of some sort would be more plausible?

 

[LinasK]

What you wish for me to believe, apparently, is that PR and JR were involved in an extraordinarily violent episode resulting in JBR's fractured skull, sexual injuries, and deep cord furrow in her neck with an associated large hemorrhage. Pens were used to write hundreds of words, pineapple was eaten, paintbrushes were broken, heads were bashed.

Yet, thru it all, the parents emerge without a single, overt 'smoking gun' sign. No scratches from anything on arms,face, or hands. No ink, no pineapple stain, no blood.

Additionally, multiple items intimate to the murder cannot be determined to have ever been at the R's house before.

These facts tend to preclude an accident scenario, the nature of an accident being usually accidental, unplanned, chaotic. Perhaps a premeditated plot of some sort would be more plausible?

First of all, JB was tied up, how could she use her hands to scratch them beyond whatever DNA was found under her fingernails? Secondly, her fibers were contaminated by theirs when they both were in contact with the body. She may not have actively fought back if John had been habitually abusing her, after all these were her parents, and many victims do bond with their attackers- Stockholm syndrome I believe it's called. The reason no blood, I think is because JB was strangled first by the garrote pulled too tight, then they finished her off once they realized she was too far gone by hitting her with the golf club over the head. Now you have a closed-head trauma on an already dead victim. Overkill, but no blood. Patsy could have cleaned up any ink stains (or pineapple) later on because she wrote the note as an after fact.

 

[BBB167893]

What you wish for me to believe, apparently, is that PR and JR were involved in an extraordinarily violent episode resulting in JBR's fractured skull, sexual injuries, and deep cord furrow in her neck with an associated large hemorrhage. Pens were used to write hundreds of words, pineapple was eaten, paintbrushes were broken, heads were bashed.

What I'm asking you to consider (not necessarily believe) is that this extraordinarily violent episode happened very quickly *snaps fingers* like that. If JB was trying to run, or perhaps frozen with terror, it would only take a few seconds. It wouldn't have taken long to fracture her skull. As for all of that other stuff you mention most likely happened after JB was rendered incapable of inflicting any kind of damage on her attacker.

Yet, thru it all, the parents emerge without a single, overt 'smoking gun' sign. No scratches from anything on arms,face, or hands. No ink, no pineapple stain, no blood.

Why would there be any of that? How could JB inflict any scratches if her head had already been caved in? Why would there be pineapple stains? Ink wouldn't show up on a person's hands if they were wearing gloves, and there was really no blood to speak of.

Additionally, multiple items intimate to the murder cannot be determined to have ever been at the R's house before.

Try me.

These facts tend to preclude an accident scenario, the nature of an accident being usually accidental, unplanned, chaotic.

Sounds like ALL of those things to me and then some!

Perhaps a premeditated plot of some sort would be more plausible?

Do you think I haven't considered that?

 

[BBB167893]

First of all, JB was tied up, how could she use her hands to scratch them beyond whatever DNA was found under her fingernails? Secondly, her fibers were contaminated by theirs when they both were in contact with the body. She may not have actively fought back if John had been habitually abusing her, after all these were her parents, and many victims do bond with their attackers- Stockholm syndrome I believe it's called.The reason no blood, I think is because JB was strangled first by the garrote pulled too tight, then they finished her off once they realized she was too far gone by hitting her with the golf club over the head. Now you have a closed-head trauma on an already dead victim. Overkill, but no blood. Patsy could have cleaned up any ink stains (or pineapple) later on because she wrote the note as an after fact.

Not that you need my help, LinasK, but just to add: it's called Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome.

Other than that, I got nothing but love for you, LinasK, you know that. But I think the head blow came first.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

First of all, JB was tied up, how could she use her hands to scratch them beyond whatever DNA was found under her fingernails? Secondly, her fibers were contaminated by theirs when they both were in contact with the body. She may not have actively fought back if John had been habitually abusing her, after all these were her parents, and many victims do bond with their attackers- Stockholm syndrome I believe it's called. The reason no blood, I think is because JB was strangled first by the garrote pulled too tight, then they finished her off once they realized she was too far gone by hitting her with the golf club over the head. Now you have a closed-head trauma on an already dead victim. Overkill, but no blood. Patsy could have cleaned up any ink stains (or pineapple) later on because she wrote the note as an after fact.

Yeah, but the parents weren't just a little clean. They were a lot clean.

They were clean from the alleged confrontation, they were clean on the computer for *advertiser censored*, they were clean in the pediatricians office, they were clean in their criminal record, they were clean at school, they were clean as far as even owning the cord, tape, pineapple, or handwriting.

Not only that, but there's a dirty DNA owner afoot. This DNA is everywhere a sexual assualter would go. Its a new IDI-DNA world out there. Really it is. Find me a RDI tab.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but JBR had a free hand, and the wrist ligature was loose?