Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[Whaleshark]

I think this answers your question above. If all they have to work with is stuff from their own house, and no evidence of an intruder, it's bound to make them look guilty. It's quite a risk to take.

Right. Which they STILL DID anyway. So no risk went down because they still took the same risk, still staged.

Right they staged anyway. So IMO they did it to cover themselves, not to protect Burke or to protect the family name. They killed JB, and the staging was the only chance they had of altering the evidence so that it was less clearly pointing at them. IMO the fact that they staged is a strong indication that it's not BDI.

You assume parents would do LESS to protect their child, and more to protect themselves, then. And if they are still looking guilty and risking jail time by staging for themselves, and they lose this gamble, then they still 'lose' Burke anyway. The staging is 'effective' as a red herring whether they did it for Burke or themselves or anyone else in the family. But they still did it...

And in fact, it would make MORE sense that both parents would cooperate to cover up the death of one of their children, if they are protecting another child (especially if you feel like it doesn't matter enough to stage just for reputation or wealth). Then what else is important enough to protect? Your other child, or children - that's what. That's the only other thing worth going to jail for, and to stage to direct blame to someone else - to protect your other children from going to jail, or being blamed. (And in fact, the Ramseys stated they wanted JAR and Melinda cleared first, if they were to cooperate -- ie; protecting the other children).

...But I guess you don't see that.

 

[Chrishope]

Right. Which they STILL DID anyway. So no risk went down because they still took the same risk, still staged.



You assume parents would do LESS to protect their child, and more to protect themselves, then. And if they are still looking guilty and risking jail time by staging for themselves, and they lose this gamble, then they still 'lose' Burke anyway. The staging is 'effective' as a red herring whether they did it for Burke or themselves or anyone else in the family. But they still did it...

And in fact, it would make MORE sense that both parents would cooperate to cover up the death of one of their children, if they are protecting another child (especially if you feel like it doesn't matter enough to stage just for reputation or wealth). Then what else is important enough to protect? Your other child, or children - that's what. That's the only other thing worth going to jail for, and to stage to direct blame to someone else - to protect your other children from going to jail, or being blamed. (And in fact, the Ramseys stated they wanted JAR and Melinda cleared first, if they were to cooperate -- ie; protecting the other children).

...But I guess you don't see that.

I'm at a loss to make you see the point.

 

[Whaleshark]

Me too. Oh well.

 

[Chrishope]

Let's focus on one quote from me, and your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrishope [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8160900#post8160900"]

[/ame]
I think this answers your question above. If all they have to work with is stuff from their own house, and no evidence of an intruder, it's bound to make them look guilty. It's quite a risk to take.

Right. Which they STILL DID anyway. So no risk went down because they still took the same risk, still staged.

There is no question they staged. The question is why?

The risk went up, for the Rs themselves. Way up. That's the point. If it were BDI the lowest risk situation would be call 911.

This is especially true if prior molestation was from BR playing doctor.

If prior molestation was from JR, he'd have a motive to cover up. PR wouldn't, unless you want -and apparently you do want- to say she'd risk life in prison to save BR from -What? No criminal charges, and some family/personal embarrassment. IMO that is not worth the risk of life in prison and I can't see PR going along with the coverup if she had not been involved up to that point.

And there is no proof that JR was the one doing the prior molestation, so while he might have been arrested there is no certainty that he'd be charged, much less convicted.

Both parents ran a pretty substantial chance of being charged with murder. That's a pretty damn high price to pay to save some embarrassment.

The fact that they STILL DID IT means they were not doing it to avoid the relatively low risk BDI situation but to avoid a much higher risk JRPRDI situation.

 

[Whaleshark]

Sorry...double post.

 

[Whaleshark]

The fact that they STILL DID IT means they were not doing it to avoid the relatively low risk BDI situation but to avoid a much higher risk JRPRDI situation.

What higher risk, Chris? Whether they staged for themselves or staged for Burke, they. still. staged. The risk and evidence and scenario is the same. (You eliminated in your mind all other possible reasons to stage: not worth it/no need to protect family, not worth it for covering reputation, not worth it to protect wealth)... what special higher risk then? Only self-preservation? But...that can't be it with your logic either if they are still using the same method of staging and the risk is the same if they used this option to cover for Burke or for themselves... Or your logic is simply it would have been more worth it to them to stage only for self-preservation, and not to cover for Burke.... but again, if they lost the gamble, they would have gone to jail anyway. Risk still the same.

What difference does it make if they risk going to jail for Burke or themselves if they still did the same staging actions, and if they lost the gamble, and would have gone to jail anyway, even if was only to cover themselves? Then they still would have gone to jail, right?

So what is this higher risk? I am sorry; I don't get your point.

I'm really not trying to be rude or difficult.

...I think maybe you're banking on the fact it should have been no big deal to them if it was Burke....and any repercussions wouldn't have been 'so bad'. If it's really as simple as that... I think you underestimate that by a longshot though, and then you have to take into account the other factors as to why it WOULD be important.. to them, especially.

Maybe for a family with not so much to lose if there was an accident, or even sexual abuse among siblings that ended in the death of a child. But not this one - not this picture-perfect family whose lifestyles and specific individual family members' activities get broadcast in detail out to a large distribution list via a Holiday newsletter... what's next year's newsletter going to say about Burke and his activities and accomplishments, if it was him....?

And maybe it's just a simple difference of opinion, and we are making it harder than it has to be....

But I think maybe because you don't factor those other items in to what they would stage or cover up for, that you think the Burke factor should be no big deal either...

...maybe that's why we are having such a hard time seeing each other's viewpoints....

 

[Whaleshark]

Here's a taste of what I'm talking about, Chris.... (how important do you think this family, its image, and activities are - in Patsy's eyes?....)

You see, with THIS family, we have: over the top newsletters, over the top pageants -the Mega-JonBenet' thing: including over-the-top costumes, over the top decorating for house tours, over the top tacky, downright asking straight out for money from Patsy for John's fundraising, over the top - dramatic - everything: Patsy was (even according to John Andrew Ramsey) 'flashy'....

This family's image and importance (to Patsy) was not the same as your average family's... maybe this should be kept in mind as to why someone would stage.. Oh, and of course, over the top Ransom Note!

1995 Christmas Letter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John and Patsy Ramsey 1995 Christmas Newsletter

Twas a week before Christmas with a million things to do, And wouldn't you know it, Mom came down with the flu. Fortunately the gifts were all gotten and under the tree, But the Christmas cards didn't make it - as you can well see! So we'll take this opportunity to extend the Holiday Cheer. And be the first to wish you a Healthy & Happy New Year!

We've finally given in to the computerized form letter! What better way to keep the high-tech industry in business!? Speaking of business, John and Access are going great guns. Europe has been successfully conquered with offices in every country except Norway! Mexico & Canada opened too. (Can you believe this grew out of our garage on Northridge?) Anyway, John was rewarded by parent company, Lockheed-Martin, by being elected an office of the company.

All work and no play make John a dull boy, so he leaves plenty of time for the latter. This year John, John Andrew, and Melinda took the crew of the Miss America (our sailing sloop) to victories in the NOOD Races in Chicago and a 4th place division finish of the Chicago-Mackinac Island Race. Seventy-knot winds in the Mac race really made the finish line look pretty good! John Andrew is a freshman at CU here in Boulder, and Melinda is due to complete her Nursing Degree from MCG [Medical College of Georgia] in Augusta next June.

Burke is busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It is a Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement. He loves it! He continues with Boy Scouting and the piano. This winter he is the tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf and sailing lessons each day. Burke is quite the sailor!

JonBenet too had a busy summer in Charlevoix. She was crowned Little Miss Charlevoix in a pageant in June and spent the rest of the summer riding in convertibles in various home-town parades throughout Michigan. She performed a patriotic tap & song for her talent. She and Burke both won ribbons in several decorated bicycle contests. In October, JonBenet become Little Miss Colorado, she rode on the "Good Ship Lollipop" float during the Boulder Christmas parade. (Grandpa Paugh built the float!) She waved and sang all along the parade route! She also takes piano, violin, and drama classes. Busy little Pre-kindergartener![sic] (Busy Mom hauling her around!)

I continue to have good check-ups at NIH in Bethesda, MD. God has surely blessed me with energy and the ability to return to raising a family. I thank Him every morning when I wake up and see the sunrise reflecting on the Flatirons over Boulder. Please continue to keep us in your prayers.

Hope your Christmas was merry and here's to 1996! By the time you read this we'll be cheering on the Buffs at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas and then on to the Fiesta Bowl in Phoenix! Thanks to everyone who visited us in Colorado or Charlevoix this year. Please come see us in 1996! Love to you all!

The Ramseys
___

...Some food for thought, my friend.

You must understand the context. But you know what Chris, if it were me, in MY family, I would have no issue calling 911 if my son hurt and killed someone.

But I'm not a Ramsey. And I think that makes all the difference.

 

[Whaleshark]

Yum...

1996 Christmas Letter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friends & Family,

It's been another busy year at the Ramsey household. Can't believe its almost over and time to start again!
Melinda (24) graduated from Medical College of Georgia and is working in Pediatric ICU at Kennestone Hospital in Atlanta.

John Andrew (20) is a Sophomore at the University of Colorado.

Burke is a busy fourth grader where he really shines in math and spelling. He played flag football this fall and is currently on a basketball binge! His little league team was #1. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth, so I'm sure we'll be seeing the orthodontist in 1997!

JonBenet is enjoying her first year in 'real school.' Kindergarten in the Core Knowledge program is fast paced and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead to first grade math. She continues to enjoy participating in talent and modeling pageants. She was named "America's Royale Tiny Miss" last summer and is Colorado's Little Miss Christmas. Her teacher says she is so outgoing that she will never have trouble delivering an oral book report!

John is always on the go travelling hither and yon. Access recently celebrated its one billion $$ mark in sales, so he's pretty happy! He and his crew were underway in the Port Huron to Mackinac Island yacht race in July, but had to pull out mid way due to lack of wind. (Can you believe that?) But, his real love is the new 'old looking' boat, Grand Season, which he spent months designing.

I spend most of my 'free time' working in the school and doing volunteer work. The Charlevoix house was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of the Better Homes & Gardens publications in 1997.

On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. Al Roker & Bryant actually talked to us and we were on camera for a few fleeting moments!

We are all enjoying continued good health and look forward to seeing you in 1997!

One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! We'll be spending my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year! Merry Christmas and much love,

The Ramseys
___

I rest my case.

P.S. - I can almost overlap that ransom note - or stick it in the middle of the newsletter - and no one would know the difference - "in 1997!" ....ahh, yes.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I don't know if the staging was connected to the R's reputation. Couldn't it just come down to the fact that they didn't want to go to jail?

 

[Chrishope]

What higher risk, Chris? Whether they staged for themselves or staged for Burke, they. still. staged.

They would not have staged if Burke did it. Staging implicates them. If BDI then there is little consequence for the Rs, except some embarrassment. The fact that they staged means it's not BDI.

 

[Chrishope]

I don't know if the staging was connected to the R's reputation. Couldn't it just come down to the fact that they didn't want to go to jail?

Right. They didn't want to go to jail for the murder of JB, so they staged the intruder scenario.

 

[SunVenus]

I don't know if the staging was connected to the R's reputation. Couldn't it just come down to the fact that they didn't want to go to jail?

Too right-- that's pretty much what I think. The whole "leading family" or "reputable family" crud wouldn't matter to most people, and I'm betting JR knew that. PR may have bought into such fantasies-- maybe she had that antiquated & false "old south artistocracy" entitlement feeling-- but really the things the R's did that muddied the waters most was the staging, the lying, the unwillingness to cooperate and using money to buy a criminal defense team. But had there not also been inexperience and in some cases ineptitiude on behalf of certain Boulder departments, this would have been solved, and I doubt if money or some sense of "special family entitlement" would have made much of a difference. It certainly hasn't helped them in the minds of many of us on here-- many of us still see them as the most likely suspects, in light of the evidence, and aren't impressed by money or alleged family status. (This is just my opinion, but I think if the R's do happen to consider themselves elite, then they haven't demonstrated any of the manners or demeanour that go with "old money". They act more like arrogant, vulgar, self-entitled nouveau riche.) Wow, that sounded snotty, but I'm cranky this morning & I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

 

[Whaleshark]

They would not have staged if Burke did it. Staging implicates them. If BDI then there is little consequence for the Rs, except some embarrassment. The fact that they staged means it's not BDI.

They still staged. It still implicated them. If they had not had enough money to buy their way out of the justice system they would have gone to jail anyway.


They still staged and it still implicated them.

Do I need to say it one more time?

Even if it was only self-preservation and they were afraid they would go to jail: they still staged. And it still implicated them.

Please for the sake of my sanity, explain what I am missing about your point.

Who is on first already?

 

[Whaleshark]

.... Just for clarification, I never said they didn't do it for self-preservation and to not go to jail.... We've been going back and forth so long it looks like I'm saying they would only stage if it was BDI....

My argument was not that.... Chrishope's argument is that they would ONLY have staged for their own self-preservation, and not if Burke did it....

I'm saying they would have staged either way because the risk of going to jail and the implications are the same.

Of course they could have done it just to protect themselves if they were the ones who did it and not Burke... But I was giving Chris reasons why they still would have staged if Burke did do it...

 

[Chrishope]

.... Just for clarification, I never said they didn't do it for self-preservation and to not go to jail.... We've been going back and forth so long it looks like I'm saying they would only stage if it was BDI....

My argument was not that.... Chrishope's argument is that they would ONLY have staged for their own self-preservation, and not if Burke did it....

I'm saying they would have staged either way because the risk of going to jail and the implications are the same.

Of course they could have done it just to protect themselves if they were the ones who did it and not Burke... But I was giving Chris reasons why they still would have staged if Burke did do it...

I'm saying they would have staged either way because the risk of going to jail and the implications are the same.

No, they are not the same.

 

[Chrishope]

They still staged. It still implicated them. If they had not had enough money to buy their way out of the justice system they would have gone to jail anyway.


They still staged and it still implicated them.

Do I need to say it one more time?

Even if it was only self-preservation and they were afraid they would go to jail: they still staged. And it still implicated them.

Please for the sake of my sanity, explain what I am missing about your point.

Who is on first already?

I don't know where I'm failing to get my point across.

Of course they staged - they killed their daughter. They had to stage the intruder scenario because that was the only card they could play.

If Burke killed her, Burke isn't going to prison. PR isn't going to prison. JR might be arrested later when the coroner finds evidence of chronic molestation, but since there would be no real proof of who did that, JR isn't going to prison either. The only thing that happens if BDI is that the family is embarrassed. So, if BDI, there is no sense staging, as it tends to implicate them as murderers. If they don't stage then the evidence -if BDI- would point to BDI. All they need to deal with is the embarrassment of their son killing their daughter.

Some people actually believe they'd run the risk of life in prison to avoid that tarnishing of their image. I think it's too high a price to pay.

I'm at a loss to understand why you keep saying THEY STILL STAGED. They staged because they had killed their daughter and wanted to blame it on an intruder. If Burke did it they would not have staged.

 

[Whaleshark]

No, they are not the same.

Of course that's your belief or we would not be having this argument.... That's why I said those other factors weigh in why as to why they simply may not have called police if Burke did it - if it mattered enough to protect and still stage even if Burke did it...

So I think u and I will agree to disagree on this and that's fine.

To you it would be simple for them to just call police and less risk if Burke did it and no need to stage.

To me I think it still would have mattered if Burke did it and they would have staged anyway....

But that's ok... It's all good.

 

[Chrishope]

Even if it was only self-preservation and they were afraid they would go to jail: they still staged. And it still implicated them.

Let's try this. Why implicate yourself if there is not a good reason to do so? If they killed JB, then staging is their only recourse.

If BDI they have two options. One, stage, and thereby implicate themselves. Two, don't stage, don't implicate themselves, and deal with the ramifications of a juvenile killing his sibling.

IMO rational people do not run the risk of life in prison to avoid damaging their standing in the community or their "image".

 

[Chrishope]

Of course that's your belief or we would not be having this argument.... That's why I said those other factors weigh in why as to why they simply may not have called police if Burke did it - if it mattered enough to protect and still stage even if Burke did it...

So I think u and I will agree to disagree on this and that's fine.

To you it would be simple for them to just call police and less risk if Burke did it and no need to stage.

To me I think it still would have mattered if Burke did it and they would have staged anyway....

But that's ok... It's all good.

OK, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Whaleshark]

Let's try this. Why implicate yourself if there is not a good reason to do so? If they killed JB, then staging is their only recourse.

If BDI they have two options. One, stage, and thereby implicate themselves. Two, don't stage, don't implicate themselves, and deal with the ramifications of a juvenile killing his sibling.

IMO rational people do not run the risk of life in prison to avoid damaging their standing in the community or their "image".

Because you assume 'there is no good reason to do so'. And I don't feel that if it was Burke there would be 'no good reason to stage'. I just think it would have mattered for all the reasons you don't: Burke's life, whether he went to jail or not even - protect him at all costs.... Any repercussions to the family, whether it be their entire future or reputation or wealth or whatever... I think they would have risked staging if Burke did it too, yes.

And p.s. .... You'll find if you look on the Casey Anthony thread here at Websleuths, that numerous other parents stated they would protect their child too, and lie for them if their child committed a crime, even murder.. Just like Cindy Anthony did for her daughter. That was egregious to me, though... I would not have protected Casey; I would have stood up for Caylee... But if Cindy was willing to lie on the stand so her own daughter would not have to go to jail or take the blame for her granddaughter's murder (which she did), then I can see Ramseys' staging to protect Burke...