Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[Woe.be.gone]

Oh sure, I think Travis was asking for it. I guess it's time for me to shut down my computerbefore I get a time out. :furious:

Well he had more warning than I did when I left the bar/dance with some pervert. I never did that again as I learned my lesson.

Was JA putting out weird vibes, acting possessive, using stalkerish behavior or not?

 

[slanda]

There are various reasons why people develop personality disorders, partially genetic, partially due to their environment. There's nothing to suggest in this case that Travis's behavior somehow triggered her antisocial personality disorder, there were clear signs of it prior to the relationship.

Regarding why she killed him 3x times over - she was angry at him for not wanting to be with her and wanted to punish him. People with antisocial personality disorder do not feel empathy for others so she did not care about the pain and suffering that she would inflict on him. The reason why it was such an overkill, in my opinion, is that she really wanted to make sure he was dead, and did not stop stabbing until he stopped moving.

All the reasons for this crime can be found within Jodi. Travis has very little to do with it, basically you could say that he was at the wrong place at the wrong time, and someone else could have very easily been in his place. IMHO.

And also, many people are rejected, in many ways worse than TA rejected JA, yet she went absolutely ballistic murdering him 3x over, which makes It compelling that she is not like the rest of us. I couldn't imagine doing what she did. i just can't. But, something inside of her drove her to do that to someone else and I think that's pretty terrifying and enough reason to want to know why (at least why in her mind, but that truth will never come out).

I was actually abused for 8 years, pretty severely and my ex husband is still among us.

I tried for 7 years to figure out what was wrong with me, him, and us. That didn't work either.

:banghead: :truce:

 

[SMK]

and it's coming from someone who said they were blamed for their own stupid missteps by the police when they were victimized.

But that's part of the problem. I tend to do that kind of thing, too, and have even had people tell me I have made a jaw-droppingly callous remark - and I don't even know I have done so, and didn't intend to!

Since people like woebegone (and myself) have a history of blaming ourselves when we are victims, (and even parents and police officers pick up on this, and mirror it, I have always felt ) - by extension, we believe TA was (on some level only) perhaps subconsciously responsible. Consider the source (and I am speaking of myself , too). Long-developed tendencies are very hard to kick!

And one can feel extremely sorry for Travis and his fate, and extremely furious at his murderer, while still wondering, 'How did he not see it coming?' Let's try and not judge, but understand. Nobody thinks Travis' murder was OK.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

AND on the other side of the coin, I don't believe there is a human who has never been verbally abusive.

Who's gonna tell me they haven't done and said nasty cruel things to their SO and/or children?

Wow. Lots of people.

 

[SMK]

Well he had more warning than I did when I left the bar/dance with some pervert. I never did that again as I learned my lesson.

Was JA putting out weird vibes, acting possessive, using stalkerish behavior or not?

She was. There is no denying. Travis told his church friends if he should fail to show up at the Sunday dinners, to assume he had been murdered.

Now someone like Andrew G Hodges would say that on the surface, conscious level, Travis was joking and really hoping all would be well. On a subconscious level, he might really have known. Could his childhood have had trauma in it which made him feel he might deserve this for his "sin" against Lisa and the Church?

It is not anti-Travis to wonder this. It is actually pro-Travis. :truce::websleuther:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

and it's coming from someone who said they were blamed for their own stupid missteps by the police when they were victimized.

I know. Thatbeme. My story was a one time deal. I was asking for help from the authorities, the ones I'd been taught to go to when bad things happen (even when I was guilty of falling prey). I never wanted to see the perp again.
Did TA ask for help?

 

[SMK]

I know. Thatbeme. My story was a one time deal. I was asking for help from the authorities, the ones I'd been taught to go to when bad things happen (even when I was guilty of falling prey). I never wanted to see the perp again.
Did TA ask for help?

I think as a child of meth addicts (bad parental care, for certain) and as a male and a charismatic leader, he might have been ashamed to, or felt silly doing so.

Also: He may have feared Jodi's revenge (taped calls shown to Church elders ( he had confessed, but it is embarrassing ) , harassment of Lisa and Mimi escalating.....

 

[zebraland]

In my opinion, it doesn't always help us as a human race to say, "That person is psychotic" ...and that's it. Ok, so maybe they are psychotic, but why?

Sometimes, I think, if we gloss over specific and distinct personality disorders and the effects of them, we lose the chance at understanding the signs and symptoms they present for future knowledge.

She obviously had a motive and other glaring issues and to me, and I'm just sorting them out here, but I am not saying that JA isn't at fault, obviously. I want to know why she killed him 3x over. I am not equivocating between JA & TA. I don't think anyone is actually. No one is saying that she's the victim and he's not.

Personally, I absolutely think they had a toxic relationship and there's probably still things no one knows. Do I think TA is a pedophile? Absolutely not. Do I think she was obsessed with him? Yes. Do I think he knew she was? Yes.

To me, there's just a lot about this entire case to work through and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm trying to understand and look to myself and people close to me. I know hypocrisy is a big trigger for me. And because of my family background, religious hypocrisy in particular. While I've never physically harmed anyone and will not, I have acted out and caused emotional harm. Dissonance stinks.

Something about Travis' treatment of Jodi - the double standard public vs. private relationship strikes that cord. If they're doin' what they're doin' together in cars and under covers, what makes her a skanky ho but not him?

 

[SMK]

I'm trying to understand and look to myself and people close to me. I know hypocrisy is a big trigger for me. And because of my family background, religious hypocrisy in particular. While I've never physically harmed anyone and will not, I have acted out and caused emotional harm. Dissonance stinks.

Something about Travis' treatment of Jodi - the double standard public vs. private relationship strikes that cord. If they're doin' what they're doin' together in cars and under covers, what makes her a skanky ho but not him?

I think this is the question of every woman who loved a man and had her sexual "gift" thrown back in her face. I know the feeling. Males - especially "men of God" - have this superior aspect where they can walk away, pure as the driven snow. The female is left mud-spattered in the gutter. It is horrifying. When I was a young woman I used to wish I were a man due to this advantage they have.:furious:

 

[deedee21]

Remember Samuels said Jodi is not assertive? A witness said she can hold her own. Jodi cornered her in a stall in the ladies room Said Travis is hers. Thats where she slso cornered Traviis. In a bathroom.

 

[zebraland]

I think this is the question of every woman who loved a man and had her sexual "gift" thrown back in her face. I know the feeling. Males - especially "men of God" - have this superior aspect where they can walk away, pure as the driven snow. The female is left mud-spattered in the gutter. It is horrifying. When I was a young woman I used to wish I were a man due to this advantage they have.:furious:

I shudder to think of the horrors for women in certain factions in India, Africa and the middle-east.

 

[deedee21]

I'm trying to understand and look to myself and people close to me. I know hypocrisy is a big trigger for me. And because of my family background, religious hypocrisy in particular. While I've never physically harmed anyone and will not, I have acted out and caused emotional harm. Dissonance stinks.

Something about Travis' treatment of Jodi - the double standard public vs. private relationship strikes that cord. If they're doin' what they're doin' together in cars and under covers, what makes her a skanky ho but not him?

Opinions people may develope about another as a result of ones sex life is not the issue. Somewhere along the way, Jodi believed her sexuality is what makes men fall in love. Warped way to think. In the taped recorded conversation she had with Travis 3 weeks before she killed him, she told him he will not find another woman who will do what she does. And vise versa. She was referring to acts in the bedroom. She went on to say she could do this for years. Its obvious she did not want it to be over. Men kill when they realize its over.They have lost all control. The same thing happen to her.

 

[MeeBee]

She was. There is no denying. Travis told his church friends if he should fail to show up at the Sunday dinners, to assume he had been murdered.

Now someone like Andrew G Hodges would say that on the surface, conscious level, Travis was joking and really hoping all would be well. On a subconscious level, he might really have known. Could his childhood have had trauma in it which made him feel he might deserve this for his "sin" against Lisa and the Church?

It is not anti-Travis to wonder this. It is actually pro-Travis. :truce::websleuther:

I feel like his initial instincts were telling him that Jodi could be potentially dangerous. I think the Jodi was able to get him to bury these feelings is part of sociopathic manipulation. Travis was a trusting man. All Jodi had to do was appeal to his kind side and Travis would drop it.

Anytime he would start feeling angry with her for how she was acting (the stalking, the lying), she would do what sociopaths do: she would apologize, act sorry, make him feel guilty. Travis would end up questioning himself, wondering if he was the crazy one to jump to conclusions and wonder if his reactions were too harsh. He would then become guilty. Yeah, she's acting strange and hiding in my closets and following me on dates, but she's hopelessly in love with me. Have a heart. She's harmless-that sort of thing.

But from what I hear though, Travis was not in any way joking when he told his friend he may end up dead. The friend started to laugh, and he got a serious look on his face and said, "I'm not joking." Serious as a heart attacks, in that moment at least. He was warning him. Now I don't know if this means he really and truly thought Jodi was capable of doing what she did in the end, but something was telling him to be cautious, she is acting strange. I don't think he fully knew how to handle her. Calling the cops would not have been enough, I don't think. They don't tend to take these things seriously.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

That was not a good experience (an understatement) and things would have been handled very, very differently in this era. Sorry to hear about it....Yes, I was always a self-blamer as well: Look at it this way: We did not wind up like Jodi.

Or even worse, Travis.

Never said he deserved to die the way he did. The message to all young men out in the world is to be careful who you mess with (which is my point of exploration). Women have often learned this the hard way and altered their behavior because of their experiences.

 

[zebraland]

And also, many people are rejected, in many ways worse than TA rejected JA, yet she went absolutely ballistic murdering him 3x over, which makes It compelling that she is not like the rest of us. I couldn't imagine doing what she did. i just can't.

Me neither, I can't imagine contemplating it let alone doing it.

I think that the dual message "you're bad and I like it" along with "your not good enough for me to be seen with you in public" would be crazy making. That crazy making for "normal" people would not lead to violence let alone this incredible degree of it. Thank god.

 

[MeeBee]

I'm trying to understand and look to myself and people close to me. I know hypocrisy is a big trigger for me. And because of my family background, religious hypocrisy in particular. While I've never physically harmed anyone and will not, I have acted out and caused emotional harm. Dissonance stinks.

Something about Travis' treatment of Jodi - the double standard public vs. private relationship strikes that cord. If they're doin' what they're doin' together in cars and under covers, what makes her a skanky ho but not him?

This is where Travis' hypocrisy really came out. He didn't want Jodi for a wife because she was, well, a *advertiser censored*. But continued to have sex with her while he did look out for a wife who was a virgin and was what he thought a wife should be. Not very cool.

But Jodi is not blameless. She had grown used to using her sexuality as a tool. Hell, she tried it with Flores too. She thought if she showed Travis a new sexual world and let him know how amazing it would be to have a freaky Mormon like her, how could he ever resist her? She was not respecting his faith by coming around and shaking her tail at him. And it backfired. It just made him lose respect for her. Serves her right.

I don't think Jodi is a *advertiser censored* myself. People are free to do what they please with their sex lives. If they want to use sex to get what they want, more power to them. It's her misrepresenting her part in their relationship that I have a problem with.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Yes, it is hearsay. They are communications between party A and B. And if neither party A or B is the one talking about what was going on in the conversation, it is hearsay.

Isn't it interesting that in all the thousands of correspondence between Jodi and Travis, that the only time his words from him to her can even remotely be construed as "mean," was when he was clearly hurt and pizzed with her? Isn't that telling that this is all the defense has?

Are all communications available to look at? How can we know this?

 

[MeeBee]

Are all communications available to look at? How can we know this?

I don't know what you mean?

ETA: Oh, I understand.

Well, if the defense had found more than what they have, wouldn't they have used it? This is all they found?

 

[zebraland]

Somewhere along the way, Jodi believed her sexuality is what makes men fall in love. Warped way to think.

Yes indeed. Unfortunately a lot of women grew up thinking that way. Women of my mother's generation certainly did. My father's generation and my father held the belief that a women had two places in life, the kitchen and the bedroom.

Lyrics from Mr. Sinatra's classic "Wives and Lovers"

Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your make-up, soon he will open the door,
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger, you needn't try any more.
For wives should always be lovers too,
Run to his arms the moment that he comes home to you.
I'm warning you,
Day after day, there are girls at the office and the men will always be men,
Don't stand him up, with your hair still in curlers, you may not see him again.
Wives should always be lovers too,
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you.
He's almost here, hey, little girl, better wear something pretty,
Something you wear to go to the city,
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music, time to get ready for love.
Time to get ready for love, yes it's time to get ready for love,
It's time to get ready, kick your shoes off, baby....,

 

[shelley921]

I feel like his initial instincts were telling him that Jodi could be potentially dangerous. I think the Jodi was able to get him to bury these feelings is part of sociopathic manipulation. Travis was a trusting man. All Jodi had to do was appeal to his kind side and Travis would drop it.

Anytime he would start feeling angry with her for how she was acting (the stalking, the lying), she would do what sociopaths do: she would apologize, act sorry, make him feel guilty. Travis would end up questioning himself, wondering if he was the one to jump to conclusions and wonder if his reactions were too harsh. He would then become guilty. Yeah, she's acting strange and hiding in my closets and following me on dates, but she's hopelessly in love with me. Have a heart. She's harmless-that sort of thing.

But from what I hear though, Travis was not in any way joking when he told his friend he may end up dead. The friend started to laugh, and he got a serious look on his face and said, "I'm not joking." Serious as a heart attacks, in that moment at least. He was warning him. Now I don't know if this means he really and truly thought Jodi was capable of doing what she did in the end, but something was telling him to be cautious, she is acting strange. I don't think he fully knew how to handle her. Calling the cops would not have been enough, I don't think. They don't tend to take these things seriously.

Yes agree with this. Maybe on a subconscious level Travis felt Jodi was somewhat dangerous . . . .but most normal people truly do not realize how terribly dangerous personality disordered, obsessed sickos like Jodi can be.

Someone on this thread - or one of the others- posted awhile back that she thought Jodi was likely obsessed with Travis as a substitute Self: When she realized that the sexual drama - probably the only area in which she felt herself to be powerful and important - could be left behind by him , and that he had a whole future world to move on to - genuine religion, marriage, children, profession- while she was only going to get older and emptier - she probably believed that to destroy him was somehow to negate this chilling reality. Of course she ruined her whole life too but she figured she would never be caught. The whole thing is an unbelievably SAD & gruesome tragedy that never should have happened.