Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[Rocco]

Thank you for the vote of confidence and welcome to Websleuths!


I've leaned on broken identity from the get go.

Thanks for the welcome. What do you mean by broken identity.

 

[pip]

Thanks for the welcome. What do you mean by broken identity.

I wonder how much her ethnicity played a role in her 'broken identity'. She is half Caucasian and half Mexican. I wonder if she resented her Mexican identity because of the level of racism and stereotype against them, highly so in Cali. She preferred to be a platinum blonde and had higher ambitions for a better lifestyle out of Yreka. (Although didn't do much work to achieve it, other than thru finding a man) She seems to have had a pretty rocky relationship with her parents, and really put her sister down. Her family of origin.
Do you think she was in deepseated turmoil with her ethnic identity? Poor mexican girl in Norcal with no education and no future VS. Dynamic platinum blonde white girl with big plans and dreams for an exciting and prosperous future. I think she felt both of those dynamics at times.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Thanks for the welcome. What do you mean by broken identity.

Well, I've come to have the opinion in life that people need an identity. This is :moo: is why people wear identifying clothing.

People wear designer clothing with obvious labels so that other people, upon seeing them will be able to identify them as having wealth or a station in life.

Other people like to have nasty looking tattoos and wear clothes that have spikes or sayings on them to make people think they are tough or to be feared.

Another example would be a policeman or nurse and their identity or even self-worth comes from the projected image they are trying to portray.

I have many friends who are true bikers and when they are away from their bike or don't have their identifying vest on, they feel lost.

MY POINT is that when I watch the videos and read the loads of information that goes along with JA, I feel she had an identity with TA. She WAS going to be somebody.

Perhaps at the moment when she really realized that she wasn't going to have that identity anymore, it was too much to bear.

Thoughts?

 

[pip]

Well, I've come to have the opinion in life that people need an identity. This is :moo: is why people wear identifying clothing.

People where designer clothing with obvious labels so that other people, upon seeing them will be able to identify them as having wealth or a station in life.

Other people like to have nasty looking tattoos and wear clothes that have spikes or sayings on them to make people think they are tough or to be feared.

Another example would be a policeman or nurse and their identity or even self-worth comes from the projected image they are trying to portray.

I have many friends who are true bikers and when they are away from their bike or don't have their identifying vest on, they feel lost.

MY POINT is that when I watch the videos and read the loads of information that goes along with JA, I feel she had an identity with TA. She WAS going to be somebody.

Perhaps at the moment when she really realized that she wasn't going to have that identity anymore, it was too much to bear.

Thoughts?

I agree. She even said during the interrogation that no one like Travis had ever pursued her before. Like he was way above what she was used to. Money, a nice house, good looks, a BMW, a promising future.

 

[IBsleuthin]

I agree. She even said during the interrogation that no one like Travis had ever pursued her before. Like he was way above what she was used to. Money, a nice house, good looks, a BMW, a promising future.

Yep. That's what I'm thinking. Her anger grew more intense after she went back home. The realization was sinking in. So she goes back to see if he's going to change his mind. He stands firm and the bubble bursts.

 

[pip]

Yep. That's what I'm thinking. Her anger grew more intense after she went back home. The realization was sinking in. So she goes back to see if he's going to change his mind. He stands firm and the bubble bursts.

I think so. She had put ALL her eggs in that basket and he was walking away with them.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

....yep, fear of abandonment (TA moving on to a new girl & leaving for Cancun) which sets of rage = textbook classic Psych 101

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Either I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at or I disagree or it's not complete or I may just be out of my ****ing mind. lol (sarcastic humor )

When it comes to mental illness many symptoms can overlap..ie.. suicidal gestures/ideation could be related to bpd or major depression and/or several other disorders. When it comes to common traits/symptoms, whether for a mood disorder or personality disorder, the context in which the symptom/trait manifests itself has to be looked at. I'll use bpd as an example (I'm not saying that she has it).. Let's say a person has intense anger/rage, and suicidal ideation it may mean something or it may mean nothing when it comes to a personality disorder (or whatever other disorder). What has to be looked at is the context in which it's presenting itself. In terms of bpd the question that would need to be asked is does the person have a history of instability in interpersonal relationships? If the answer is no then you'd look at other disorders whether it be mood or personality. A person with bpd is going to have a history of unstable pattern of interacting with others, a person with hpd is going to have a history of attention seeking behavior or having to be the center of attention, a person with npd is going to have a history of grandiosity or need for admiration and a person with aspd is going to have a history of disregard for others. These are the insecurities that these personality disorders are based around, with the possible exception of aspd, and history is the keyword. I have bpd, and if I become friends with someone at some point my insecurities are going to kick in and that friendship will be no more. What that means is my insecurity will lead to arguments, neediness, clingyness and they will become overwhelmed and eventually tell me to **** off. This is not a one time occurrence this is unfortunately a long long history with me going back as far as jr high.. **Now for a rant**.....It is incredibly frustrating for me when I see posts (not so much here.. most of you have been very kind) that blatantly say were evil or take joy in this or that it doesn't bother us. That could not be further from the truth with the majority of us. Do you think I enjoy losing a friend? We experience pain and frustration too.. It's just from a different perspective. We hate the fact that we emotionally hurt someone that we liked/loved, we hate ourselves, and we hate the intensity of the emotional turmoil that we are experiencing internally which is the key component of bpd. **end of rant** It's likely that my traits may overlap with some of the other pd's, but I'm bpd.. My problem is a persistent pattern of unstable relationships. I respect peoples rights, I don't need to be the center of attention and I don't need unrealistic admiration. I'm not saying it's not possible to be co-morbid, because it is, however the whole history of the person has to be looked at to determine that.

Most, if not all, pd's are going to use manipulation to some extent. With the help of dbt I've become pretty good at spotting mine and I'm able to make sure my motives are sincere. I do believe improvements, with the right kind of therapy, can be made to interpersonal relationships. I have not mastered that, but there's reasons for that and that's a whole other story.

The point in me writing this and being open is that I want people to be aware of what it really means to have bpd and we're not these evil little aliens.

Richochet: I really commend your honesty in a world that can be full of lies, liars, and those wearing a cloak of false bravado. Openness and writing about your challenges and the hard work you are doing (DBT) is refreshing and courageous, imho.
I look at JA and see someone not nearly as high-functioning and I do see a pattern (history) with her....and most of the history came from her own mouth while on the stand. I heard JA talk about a lot of interpersonal problems with past boyfriends and family members. I think even recently she kicked her mom.
I'm also very glad that I haven't seen anyone belittle anyone here regarding anyone's challenges or diagnosis.
I still find it exceptional regarding the brave posters on another thread who wrote about their life experiences with PTSD and what the causative factors were. Whoa! Very brave and honest too, Richochet.

 

[SMK]

I wonder how much her ethnicity played a role in her 'broken identity'. She is half Caucasian and half Mexican. I wonder if she resented her Mexican identity because of the level of racism and stereotype against them, highly so in Cali. She preferred to be a platinum blonde and had higher ambitions for a better lifestyle out of Yreka. (Although didn't do much work to achieve it, other than thru finding a man) She seems to have had a pretty rocky relationship with her parents, and really put her sister down. Her family of origin.
Do you think she was in deepseated turmoil with her ethnic identity? Poor mexican girl in Norcal with no education and no future VS. Dynamic platinum blonde white girl with big plans and dreams for an exciting and prosperous future. I think she felt both of those dynamics at times.

Yes, absolutely, I had thought this from the beginning, that she had a shame about her Latino heritage (as you say, due to the stereotyping and racism that abounds ) - also , look at Lisa whom Travis was dating and wanted to marry: Very blonde with an Anglo Saxon surname . I believe this was part of JA's identity problem.

 

[SMK]

Well, I've come to have the opinion in life that people need an identity. This is :moo: is why people wear identifying clothing.

People wear designer clothing with obvious labels so that other people, upon seeing them will be able to identify them as having wealth or a station in life.

Other people like to have nasty looking tattoos and wear clothes that have spikes or sayings on them to make people think they are tough or to be feared.

Another example would be a policeman or nurse and their identity or even self-worth comes from the projected image they are trying to portray.

I have many friends who are true bikers and when they are away from their bike or don't have their identifying vest on, they feel lost.

MY POINT is that when I watch the videos and read the loads of information that goes along with JA, I feel she had an identity with TA. She WAS going to be somebody.

Perhaps at the moment when she really realized that she wasn't going to have that identity anymore, it was too much to bear.

Thoughts?

Absolutely: Her very Self felt threatened. There is nothing so frightening as being in the world with no identity. She was in her late 20s, no college degree, poor relating to prior boyfriends and family:

Her sexuality had become her identity and her power: That Travis was now actually seeking young 18 year old Mormon virgins as wife material , the writings he posted on his blog on May 18 about seeking a wife, must have raised the alarm of terror in JA, surely.

I believe she admired Travis, sought in him a Second Self, and believed by marrying him, her own identity would be bolstered by his looks, leadership, charisma, popularity. To be rejected by him must have felt to her as if God himself had said, "You are blotted out of the Book of Life." Her sexuality was her one power and he had thrown it back at her. Narcissists have a grandiose self, with an abyss yawning beneath that facade. If the facade crumbles, the abyss yawns.

 

[Gecko100]

Thank you for the vote of confidence and welcome to Websleuths!


I've leaned on broken identity from the get go.

Can I ask if she has a broken identity, doesn't that then mean that she had an identity, but it got broken?
If all of her identity came from Travis, did she never have one in the first place?
Or did I misunderstand your post?:blushing:
I think she has very poor ego strengths in the sense that she is not terribly conversant with her 'self', and 'self' protective boundaries, and I really don't think she has an iota of a clue as to who she really is.
I guess she got a bit of an identity through the church and fellowship, but saying that then would suggest that she lost a whole lot more than Travis?
I would love to speak to her siblings!!
The narcissistic myth is a wonderful metaphore, and Nemesis might very well have turned up in Arizona!!
Deep psychology is the biz!!

 

[crimesnooper]

I feel exactly the same way. I also think that this is what attracted them, they recognised their own 'admirable' skills in each other.
It was never going to end well.
My brother behaves the same way, and has almost killed someone in an N rage. He physically fights when he doesn't get his own way (he's 64), and lives in a position of power through wealth. He is incredibly charming, funny, seductive, and intelligent. Just make sure you catch him on a good day!
My N sister is the sneaky one, and they have a mutual 'love' of each other that borders on the very creepy. She is 66. He 'buys' his narcissistic supply from people until they cross him.
He was arrested a couple of years ago for racial vilification, it made the tv news because he sued the police for mishandling him. He didn't win.

Your post struck a cord with me. My sister, who I feel had a Narcissistic personality and mother who most likey was a boderline , had an unusual bond. When my sister passed away, my mother said"she WAS special." I said yes she was, but so are your other two children." Complete silence.

 

[crimesnooper]

I think Anne Rule will write a book. She writes true crime books.

I wish she would but I know she was asked about wiritng on the Scott Peterson case and I beleive she said she does not like to write about ones that have been so widely covered in the media. She also seems to be slowing down a bit. WHich I hate becuase I think she is one of the top three crime writers!!

 

[Chester_from_THM]

Your post struck a cord with me. My sister, who I feel had a Narcissistic personality and mother who most likey was a boderline , had an unusual bond. When my sister passed away, my mother said"she WAS special." I said yes she was, but so are your other two children." Complete silence.

I read an article about affinities between personality disordered people. How they attract and defend each other. It was discussed in the context of legal field, law enforcement, family law.

I wish I could find it again. At first I thought it was outlandish.

Then I watched that Dear Zachary movie, and it seemed more plausible. The girlfriend/killer was clearly some (many) type of PD. The prosecutor and judge who let her free on a no $ bond because they thought she was an upstanding citizen, doctor, blah blah. Basically singing her praises. Despite the strong evidence she had killed her ex boyfriend in cold blood.

What would account for that? It did make me wonder how much PD people recognize each other and have some natural affinity toward each other.

 

[crimesnooper]

Either I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at or I disagree or it's not complete or I may just be out of my ****ing mind. lol (sarcastic humor )

When it comes to mental illness many symptoms can overlap..ie.. suicidal gestures/ideation could be related to bpd or major depression and/or several other disorders. When it comes to common traits/symptoms, whether for a mood disorder or personality disorder, the context in which the symptom/trait manifests itself has to be looked at. I'll use bpd as an example (I'm not saying that she has it).. Let's say a person has intense anger/rage, and suicidal ideation it may mean something or it may mean nothing when it comes to a personality disorder (or whatever other disorder). What has to be looked at is the context in which it's presenting itself. In terms of bpd the question that would need to be asked is does the person have a history of instability in interpersonal relationships? If the answer is no then you'd look at other disorders whether it be mood or personality. A person with bpd is going to have a history of unstable pattern of interacting with others, a person with hpd is going to have a history of attention seeking behavior or having to be the center of attention, a person with npd is going to have a history of grandiosity or need for admiration and a person with aspd is going to have a history of disregard for others. These are the insecurities that these personality disorders are based around, with the possible exception of aspd, and history is the keyword. I have bpd, and if I become friends with someone at some point my insecurities are going to kick in and that friendship will be no more. What that means is my insecurity will lead to arguments, neediness, clingyness and they will become overwhelmed and eventually tell me to **** off. This is not a one time occurrence this is unfortunately a long long history with me going back as far as jr high.. **Now for a rant**.....It is incredibly frustrating for me when I see posts (not so much here.. most of you have been very kind) that blatantly say were evil or take joy in this or that it doesn't bother us. That could not be further from the truth with the majority of us. Do you think I enjoy losing a friend? We experience pain and frustration too.. It's just from a different perspective. We hate the fact that we emotionally hurt someone that we liked/loved, we hate ourselves, and we hate the intensity of the emotional turmoil that we are experiencing internally which is the key component of bpd. **end of rant** It's likely that my traits may overlap with some of the other pd's, but I'm bpd.. My problem is a persistent pattern of unstable relationships. I respect peoples rights, I don't need to be the center of attention and I don't need unrealistic admiration. I'm not saying it's not possible to be co-morbid, because it is, however the whole history of the person has to be looked at to determine that.

Most, if not all, pd's are going to use manipulation to some extent. With the help of dbt I've become pretty good at spotting mine and I'm able to make sure my motives are sincere. I do believe improvements, with the right kind of therapy, can be made to interpersonal relationships. I have not mastered that, but there's reasons for that and that's a whole other story.

The point in me writing this and being open is that I want people to be aware of what it really means to have bpd and we're not these evil little aliens.

Thank you so much for your post. wow. My heart ached for the struggle that you go through. I do know from personal experience that what you say is true. My family member had no real idea why her life was such a mess. But I know she felt real pain and suffered and never would I think of her or anyone else as evil. I think you are introspective and self aware more than the average person. Again, thank you for such an honest and revealing post.

 

[ISeeSociopaths]

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 964
Watching NG replay of the police interrogation. My goodness. That officer is great. He is amazing with his questioins and how he knows she is lying. She is also definitely a physcopath and proves it by asking "Is it becase I am not crying" "How am I acting that you know I am lying" Jodi has no real normal emotions that a normal person would have in that situation.

A normal person would be freaking out, maybe crying, but at a minimum would be under huge stress. She sits there calm as a cucumber with no feelings of remorse, regret, dread, fear, or no feelings of ANYTHING regarding what she did.

That is why she scares me so much. Very creepy.

This post from another thread is useful to describes why she is not Borderline.
If she was BP-her emotions- real emotions would be all over the place. Up and down-
But she remains the COLD BLOODED KILLER that she is.
I thought the authors name would have copied- so apologies to user Hatfield.
I haven't mastered this site yet.

 

[shelley921]

Absolutely: Her very Self felt threatened. There is nothing so frightening as being in the world with no identity. She was in her late 20s, no college degree, poor relating to prior boyfriends and family:

Her sexuality had become her identity and her power: That Travis was now actually seeking young 18 year old Mormon virgins as wife material , the writings he posted on his blog on May 18 about seeking a wife, must have raised the alarm of terror in JA, surely.

I believe she admired Travis, sought in him a Second Self, and believed by marrying him, her own identity would be bolstered by his looks, leadership, charisma, popularity. To be rejected by him must have felt to her as if God himself had said, "You are blotted out of the Book of Life." Her sexuality was her one power and he had thrown it back at her. Narcissists have a grandiose self, with an abyss yawning beneath that facade. If the facade crumbles, the abyss yawns.

Isn't identity part of self-esteem?

I guess what i keep coming back to is imagining myself as a young woman of 27 who was in the position Jodi was in when she was 27- and how would i FEEL about MYSELF...?..and i can not imagine how i could feel GOOD about myself.

she was a h..s drop out working as a low pay waitress not able to support herself, with no close female friends, less than ideal family relations and a string of failed relationships with men behind her. I try to imagine how I would have felt about myself if I had been in those circumstances at that age -- or any age --and I imagine that I
would not have been feeling that GOOD about myself or hopeful about my future. i imagine how inadequate or unlovable i would have felt and, to me if you feel that way, you don't have high self esteem.

yet people keep saying narcissists do not feel insecure or feel bad about themselves because they think they are superior.

 

[Gecko100]

<bolded by me>


I know far more about art than I do about psychology.

One of my favorite artists is Caravaggio. Fortunately in many psych 101 books a painting of his titled 'Narcissus' is often included in the section describing this particular mental disorder.

If you simply look at the painting without even reading the text you can get a firm grasp on the true understanding of a narcissist.

Look at how his arms meet the reflection of his arms in the water. This creates a complete circle. Look at his gaze, his body language and his facial expressions.

Narcissus was in love with his perceived reflection in the water. He was not covering up anything. This is not a product of poor self-esteem and a subsequent learned ability to mask that poor self-esteem. Narcissus TRULY AND DEEPLY believed that he WAS superior and above all else.


If you are not a brain surgeon but go around thinking and telling people you are this is a different type of personality disorder and operates on delusion.


As far as teenage behavior goes, the teen brain is not even completely developed yet and that alone is such a complex topic I think it's best served on a completely different thread.

But isn't that the point, he fell in love with his own reflection? A reflection is an empty superficial thing with nothing behind it, as opposed to love which is a deeper more connected thing. He couldn't stop looking at a his reflection which had no meaning or substance.
Teens are notoriously self centred, bless them.

 

[SMK]

Your post struck a cord with me. My sister, who I feel had a Narcissistic personality and mother who most likey was a boderline , had an unusual bond. When my sister passed away, my mother said"she WAS special." I said yes she was, but so are your other two children." Complete silence.

I hear you: Same type of mother/sister bond in my family, and was very destructive in many ways.

 

[Gecko100]

Your post struck a cord with me. My sister, who I feel had a Narcissistic personality and mother who most likey was a boderline , had an unusual bond. When my sister passed away, my mother said"she WAS special." I said yes she was, but so are your other two children." Complete silence.

That's just awful. My mother was a splitter too, when I asked her why she had never told me she loved me, she didn't answer. Meh