Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[shelley921]

Omgggg I have spent a lot of time thinking about her Mom. Sitting there day after day. She certainly did not take the stand for the DT. ( can you imagine her being questioned by JM?)

She certainly did not get JA the extra help, tutoring, therapy she needed- or did she?

I wonder.

Jodi stayed back and dropped out in 11th grade.:cowcouch:

I wonder too. I'd like to know what the mother did to try to help Jodi. One classmate of Jodi's said her parents were very strict and she had to be home earlier than the rest of the teens.

 

[Chester_from_THM]

Thanks for posting that. It's the first time I saw/heard that. Amazing. She always has to be the winner... what idiot would utter something like that knowing you are on tape. To me, that comes close to a confession.

snooper, I can't get that link to open for some reason.

Does anyone know which section of David Lohr's video of the full interview that came from? I can open all those, no problem. (assuming that is where it came from)

 

[pip]

I get an impression of serial killer from JA. From CA, I just get selfish idiot who never wanted a kid. Cindy A wanted the child and should have just adopted her, but CA wanted to have control she never could over her mother. I don't see CA killing again. I don't see her having a life again. But JA doesn't care. She will seduce and manipulate. She will kill again if given the chance. CA is living life barely in the shadows, and no I'm not taking up for her. Not at all.

But her (CA's) dysfunction was serious enough that it DID lead to murder. Even if she never does it again, the capacity is there. She will never be a good mother, she doesn't have the wiring. There are many young mothers who resent the burden of motherhood, but do not have the capacity for murder to resolve the issue. That speaks volumes about CA. It is likely that CA will never get herself in that position again. If JA walked free, it is also likely she would not let herself get into that position again either. They will continue on with their same faulty internal wiring, lead dysfunctional lives, but likely with a new and profound sense to steer clear of feeling "trapped" in situations that would drive them to murder again. Neither wants to spend their lives in prison. Near death experiences (DP) will remind them to steer clear. I don't believe either of them have the makings of a serial killer. Dysfunctional situational killers. One timers.
I do, however, think that JA isn't going to be walking free. I am guessing LWOP.

 

[westies4ever]

I remember reading somewhere that NPD's have some kind of trauma in their childhood that triggers or starts the NPD. I personally don't believe it has to be a trauma that is of physical or sexual nature, just traumatic to the individual child.

I know that JA has younger siblings & wonder if the birth of those younger siblings could have been a trigger. We know that she was older at the time they were born, she did have some accompanying responsibilities and I'm sure there was some form of resentment there also.

I'm in so way excusing any of JA's behavior.

JMO

 

[westies4ever]

SMK

Both over-indulgence and under-indulgence owe their origins to the same faulty mothering and lead to poor character formation.

Yes, in real life I have seen both types result in a NPD type personality.

I think the lack of boundaries, formation of values, absence of empathetic modeling and then some all contribute to this outcome.

JMHO

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but...

A family member of mine was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She was awful to live with but everyone who didn't live with her loved her & couldn't understand when the family decided not to have anything else to do with her. She eventually married another narcissist. When a narcissist gets involved with another narcissist, things get nasty...the hurt each other over & over again for kicks & to one up another. One of them is gonna "win" by hurting the other immensely. When two narcissists get together, it almost always ends up in the death or extreme excuse of one by the other (the "more" narcissistic of the two will "win).

I think Travis may also have had some narcissistic qualities based on the business he was in (pyramid scheme - he apparently felt no guilt about that as he made thousands of dollars off of the people below him?), thought very highly of himself (at least to the outside world), lied constantly as far as the whole not-having-sex/good Mormon thing (essentially much of his life was a lie...my Mormon friends take that much more seriously than friends of any other religion do), and the ways he used (notice I didn't say abused) Jodi. It seems to me like had "a touch" of narcissism but she was the bigger narcissist....and she ended up "winning" the battle between the two of them in her eyes (a battle that included attempting to control & manipulate one another) by killing him.

I am NOT saying Travis deserved to be killed. I'm not saying he had NPD. I'm saying he seems to have some qualities of a narcissist. Jodi couldn't control/manipulate him how she was used to because he could play the game she was playing. But in the end, the "stronger" narcissist (or truer narcissist?) couldn't take it. She couldn't be beat at her own game and had to exert ultimate control over him by killing him.

You are not alone in your theory of the dueling narcissists in the JA/TA relationship. As you, I believe JA was the more extreme by far. I believe there may have been a big, ugly, bloody wound in the core of her being when the man of her dreams rejected her. And the only way to salvage herself and stop the pain she could not tolerate, was to kill the (in her mind) offender. And now that he is dead, she can once again,be the calm, serene and charming self she showed in her 48 Hours TV program. She regained her equilibrium, so to speak.

 

[Gecko100]

http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/Classics/OvidEchoNarcissus.htm

The actual myth was interestingly also connected to really lying, stalking and unrequited love. Now that I am rereading it.

echo-Lies- covers for zeus, and is cursed by Hera...stalks Narcissus but in her state of being only able to repeat your last few words ( echo) withers away in the mtns.

Narcissus rebuffs Echo and everyone else...and is cursed to - not fall in love with his reflection ...but to experience beyond rejection- beyond unrequited love...but "If he should love deny him what he loves!"
coincidentally it ..wasn't himself..but merely his reflection.

He becomes a really stinky flower. have you ever smelled a narcissus flower? blech

Wow! I'm going to have to re-read it, myth is so connected to our everyday lives in the collective unconscious - parallels are everywhere! It's such exciting reading for a nerd (me), and it's profoundly meaningful.
I haven't smelled a narcissus flower, but if they have them here I will try and find one. Stinky flower sounds so apt.

Just going back to the paedophile stuff, a few pages ago, I thought everyone might be interested in knowing that the average age of a paedophile is 27. A large percentage of them target single unsupported mothers and vulnerable children, and by the time they are old hundreds of kids will be permanently damaged. The statistics for women is that 1:3 will experience some form of sexual abuse in their lifetime. Female to male sexual abuse (children), is very rare and in my own professional experience/research over many years I worked with only one.
No agenda to denigrate victims, just a bit of trivia.
I confess to only a superficial amount of knowledge about the USA, and wanted to ask if Arizona was conservative or otherwise? I guess if the prisons there are so awful, then it's a conserving type place?
I have only been to the west coast through to Mexico, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I wish it was a given that in no way would I ever try to be an apologist for JA, and hope my explorations and pattern finding are not offensive.
I am trained to be objective when analysing phenomena, but to draw any conclusion in terms of analysis, all factors must be considered, from the micro to the macro, the psychology of the two people involved, and the wider context.
Perpetrator and victim psychology is a well recognised field, and it is useful for all of us who don't want to be one.
Their relationship created a 3rd psychology, based not only on their own internal factors, but the wider social context, in which the prevailing discourse/mindset of their peers does not accept sex outside marriage. So the third 'psychology' between them was based on betrayal of church mores, lust, lies, self lies, and an attraction to their own wounds, definitely a woeful collection of combustive materials. It was all sort of sordid. Never gonna work! It was so predicted on the pleasure principle of the id in psychoanalytical terms, or the orphan in deep psychology.
I can imagine she felt incredibly rejected by them all, and this was her only life. (For 5 months anyway hehe)...

 

[Gecko100]

AS we have been talking a lot about psych diagnosis.. and several of us clearly have family members with what we thibk are some of those issues. what does anyone thin about the possible hereditary links.. I would love to know more about her family. I may be reading way too much into this but JA's... mother's reactions seem off only in that she is so controlled in the court room from what I have seen.

Maybe not so much hereditary links, but learned behaviours. There is some evidence to suggest however, that 'psychopathology' is inherited. I mentioned in another post of a neuroscientist researching ASPD brains discovering anomalies in his own brain similar to that of ASPD brains. He later uncovered he was related to Lizzie Borden! He grew up in a stable loving home and does good in society. So nurture plays a huge part in the development of empathy.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Absolutely: Her very Self felt threatened. There is nothing so frightening as being in the world with no identity. She was in her late 20s, no college degree, poor relating to prior boyfriends and family:

Her sexuality had become her identity and her power: That Travis was now actually seeking young 18 year old Mormon virgins as wife material , the writings he posted on his blog on May 18 about seeking a wife, must have raised the alarm of terror in JA, surely.

I believe she admired Travis, sought in him a Second Self, and believed by marrying him, her own identity would be bolstered by his looks, leadership, charisma, popularity. To be rejected by him must have felt to her as if God himself had said, "You are blotted out of the Book of Life." Her sexuality was her one power and he had thrown it back at her. Narcissists have a grandiose self, with an abyss yawning beneath that facade. If the facade crumbles, the abyss yawns.

I'm a tad jealous that I didn't come up with this summary. You NAILED IT.


Now, if you go back and look at Caravaggio's painting of Narcissus, look closely at the reflection in the water. See anything? Do you see how the reflection is grandiose? The reflection is wearing royal clothing and is obviously a greatly enhanced imaginary version that Narcissus is seeing.


One of my favorite versions of this tale is that the reflection in the water is accidentally broken
and the realization by Narcissus that he cannot have what is not real ends up driving him to suicide.



As I extrapolate this tale to the tale of JA, to me in :moo: I see JA's narcissistic side only beginning to develop into a PROBLEM as she starts dating TA. She begins to transform, she changes her hair color, she changes her RELIGION. She becomes a more grandiose version of herself.


But TA breaks that reflection and the reality then SHATTERS her existence.

The most glaring difference between Narcissus and JA is that she didn't kill herself, she killed her Nemessis, (TA).

 

[pip]

You are not alone in your theory of the dueling narcissists in the JA/TA relationship. As you, I believe JA was the more extreme by far. I believe there may have been a big, ugly, bloody wound in the core of her being when the man of her dreams rejected her. And the only way to salvage herself and stop the pain she could not tolerate, was to kill the (in her mind) offender. And now that he is dead, she can once again,be the calm, serene and charming self she showed in her 48 Hours TV program. She regained her equilibrium, so to speak.

I can see it. He was the victim of a damaged childhood, he may have been struggling with low self esteem and self value as a core issue and his need for larger than life proof of his worth (in material things) and his need to be the center of attention (which I believe is true) was his way of coping with his core issues. He had his weaknesses. (Who doesn't) But they were in huge conflict with his values. I don't think he had ASPD of course, nor do I think his narcissistic tendencies were pathological. JA on the other hand, full blown and pathological. He called her a sociopath, and she said 'there's something wrong with that boy'. She could not win him over, he was not marriage material as he was in a phase of self involvement. I think he had plans and was determined to find a nice girl and change that in his near future. He recognized that in himself. And Jodi was not the girl..he already knew she was a sociopath. I am sure she reflected selfish behavior that he was then able to recognize in himself and he did not like what he saw.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Can I ask if she has a broken identity, doesn't that then mean that she had an identity, but it got broken?
If all of her identity came from Travis, did she never have one in the first place?
Or did I misunderstand your post?:blushing:
I think she has very poor ego strengths in the sense that she is not terribly conversant with her 'self', and 'self' protective boundaries, and I really don't think she has an iota of a clue as to who she really is.
I guess she got a bit of an identity through the church and fellowship, but saying that then would suggest that she lost a whole lot more than Travis?
I would love to speak to her siblings!!
The narcissistic myth is a wonderful metaphore, and Nemesis might very well have turned up in Arizona!!
Deep psychology is the biz!!

I'm not sure if I will be able to put this into words on here correctly so please follow with me...


I base my broken identity theory on the belief that many people carry within them the seeds for severe mental illness and it is only under the right conditions that these seeds sprout and take root.

In my theory here, my belief is that there was no or a very, very poor identity. Very low self-esteem. In the background was the seeds of a narcissist. (Remember that Narcissus was not always this way but BECAME what he was).

So you have this person with the personality/identity void and along comes someone that gives her that attention. ~sprouts the seed.

She in her mind grabs on to this ray of hope, this CHANCE to become something better, to become someone to 'show' those who had hurt her and put her down in the past.

So she builds on this.

In my opinion, one of the quickest ways to get yourself killed by a group of people is to challenge their belief systems particularly as it relates to their RELIGION. (It's historically true, it happened to Jesus).

When you think about this then consider how profound it is for JA to actually CONVERT to another religion simply to please TA.

New hair,
New look,
New friends,
New boyfriend,
New places to hangout and live
New religion.

(Looks a lot like building blocks to me).

She is now building a new identity. And from the looks of it, it's certainly an identity above what she started with. I dare say it's even grandiose in her mind.

 

[Elleth]

Excellent article on Diagnosing Jodi Arias: Part One of Three

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

I wonder how much her ethnicity played a role in her 'broken identity'. She is half Caucasian and half Mexican. I wonder if she resented her Mexican identity because of the level of racism and stereotype against them, highly so in Cali. She preferred to be a platinum blond and had higher ambitions for a better lifestyle out of Yreka. (Although didn't do much work to achieve it, other than thru finding a man) She seems to have had a pretty rocky relationship with her parents, and really put her sister down. Her family of origin.
Do you think she was in deepseated turmoil with her ethnic identity? Poor mexican girl in Norcal with no education and no future VS. Dynamic platinum blond white girl with big plans and dreams for an exciting and prosperous future. I think she felt both of those dynamics at times.

I have silently wondered the same thing as you posted here. And her bleaching her hair blond, was it to fit in better with TA's "white" Mormon Church members and friends? Did she feel she had to be "someone else" to be accepted by them? Plain ole' dark haired Jodi wasn't much without the makeup and sexy clothes and blond hair. But even her physical transformation (boob job too) from plain Jodi to blond vixen didn't seal the deal she wanted to desperately.

I am NOT sympathizing with her at all! Just trying to get into her head and perhaps find out what makes Jodi tick. To me, it is a fascinating study and one shared by lots of other people.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Maybe not so much hereditary links, but learned behaviours. There is some evidence to suggest however, that 'psychopathology' is inherited. I mentioned in another post of a neuroscientist researching ASPD brains discovering anomalies in his own brain similar to that of ASPD brains. He later uncovered he was related to Lizzie Borden! He grew up in a stable loving home and does good in society. So nurture plays a huge part in the development of empathy.

I watched an interview with him. He puts up slides of a 'normal' brain and then goes on to talk about this deviant brain ect...shows the slide and then ASTONISHES the crowd by revealing it is, in fact HIS OWN brain!!

 

[shelley921]

I have silently wondered the same thing as you posted here. And her bleaching her hair blond, was it to fit in better with TA's "white" Mormon Church members and friends? Did she feel she had to be "someone else" to be accepted by them? Plain ole' dark haired Jodi wasn't much without the makeup and sexy clothes and blond hair. But even her physical transformation (boob job too) from plain Jodi to blond vixen didn't seal the deal she wanted to desperately.

I am NOT sympathizing with her at all! Just trying to get into her head and perhaps find out what makes Jodi tick. To me, it is a fascinating study and one shared by lots of other people.

I think that she was already that over-processed bleached blonde when she met Travis. Yes I recall that she was living with Darryl as a blonde & got the fake *advertiser censored* then too - maybe in 2005. Darryl paid for the bad boob job.

 

[SMK]

AS we have been talking a lot about psych diagnosis.. and several of us clearly have family members with what we thibk are some of those issues. what does anyone thin about the possible hereditary links.. I would love to know more about her family. I may be reading way too much into this but JA's... mother's reactions seem off only in that she is so controlled in the court room from what I have seen.

I think Jodi's mother seems "off kilter" in a number of ways; certainly the mother/daughter relationship would appear to be.

Judging from my own family, I think there IS an hereditary link: My mother and sister both have traits of narcissism and seem to be co-dependants: On the maternal side, an aunt and a grandmother also had many traits of personality disorders and symbiotic relationships.

M Scott Peck, in his book, "People of the Lie", speaks about evil itself having a genetic component, and schizoid features. All much grist for the mill.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Either I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at or I disagree or it's not complete or I may just be out of my ****ing mind. lol (sarcastic humor )

When it comes to mental illness many symptoms can overlap..ie.. suicidal gestures/ideation could be related to bpd or major depression and/or several other disorders. When it comes to common traits/symptoms, whether for a mood disorder or personality disorder, the context in which the symptom/trait manifests itself has to be looked at. I'll use bpd as an example (I'm not saying that she has it).. Let's say a person has intense anger/rage, and suicidal ideation it may mean something or it may mean nothing when it comes to a personality disorder (or whatever other disorder). What has to be looked at is the context in which it's presenting itself. In terms of bpd the question that would need to be asked is does the person have a history of instability in interpersonal relationships? If the answer is no then you'd look at other disorders whether it be mood or personality. A person with bpd is going to have a history of unstable pattern of interacting with others, a person with hpd is going to have a history of attention seeking behavior or having to be the center of attention, a person with npd is going to have a history of grandiosity or need for admiration and a person with aspd is going to have a history of disregard for others. These are the insecurities that these personality disorders are based around, with the possible exception of aspd, and history is the keyword. I have bpd, and if I become friends with someone at some point my insecurities are going to kick in and that friendship will be no more. What that means is my insecurity will lead to arguments, neediness, clingyness and they will become overwhelmed and eventually tell me to **** off. This is not a one time occurrence this is unfortunately a long long history with me going back as far as jr high.. **Now for a rant**.....It is incredibly frustrating for me when I see posts (not so much here.. most of you have been very kind) that blatantly say were evil or take joy in this or that it doesn't bother us. That could not be further from the truth with the majority of us. Do you think I enjoy losing a friend? We experience pain and frustration too.. It's just from a different perspective. We hate the fact that we emotionally hurt someone that we liked/loved, we hate ourselves, and we hate the intensity of the emotional turmoil that we are experiencing internally which is the key component of bpd. **end of rant** It's likely that my traits may overlap with some of the other pd's, but I'm bpd.. My problem is a persistent pattern of unstable relationships. I respect peoples rights, I don't need to be the center of attention and I don't need unrealistic admiration. I'm not saying it's not possible to be co-morbid, because it is, however the whole history of the person has to be looked at to determine that.

Most, if not all, pd's are going to use manipulation to some extent. With the help of dbt I've become pretty good at spotting mine and I'm able to make sure my motives are sincere. I do believe improvements, with the right kind of therapy, can be made to interpersonal relationships. I have not mastered that, but there's reasons for that and that's a whole other story.

The point in me writing this and being open is that I want people to be aware of what it really means to have bpd and we're not these evil little aliens.

Bravo! Great post! I learned a lot. There's nothing like learning about a PD from a person who has it and has good insight into their condition. I also don't like extreme labeling of people, like "pure evil" or "master manipulator." It reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials. I also do not believe any psychologist or psychiatrist worth their salt (or integrity) would attempt to diagnose a PD in a person from watching them on TV or reading about them. They would need a detailed history and psychological testing to give a valid diagnosis. That's why I do not believe any of us here can say with any certainty that JA has "this or that or a combination" of PDs.

 

[SMK]

<modsnip>

I am sure JA did in fact feel badly at 27 despite her facade: I wonder if there was similar pathology in her family, as their was in mine (it can do a major, major number on you, even and especially if you are not involved in the pathology). Court reports don't tell the real daily story, so we cannot be sure. I know my husband thought my family was fine until he got to know them as the years unfolded, at which point he found them frightening and bordering on evil. I reacted by being a passive victim, though no doubt so react by becoming narcissistic and pathological.

 

[SMK]

I'm a tad jealous that I didn't come up with this summary. You NAILED IT.


Now, if you go back and look at Caravaggio's painting of Narcissus, look closely at the reflection in the water. See anything? Do you see how the reflection is grandiose? The reflection is wearing royal clothing and is obviously a greatly enhanced imaginary version that Narcissus is seeing.


One of my favorite versions of this tale is that the reflection in the water is accidentally broken
and the realization by Narcissus that he cannot have what is not real ends up driving him to suicide.



As I extrapolate this tale to the tale of JA, to me in :moo: I see JA's narcissistic side only beginning to develop into a PROBLEM as she starts dating TA. She begins to transform, she changes her hair color, she changes her RELIGION. She becomes a more grandiose version of herself.


But TA breaks that reflection and the reality then SHATTERS her existence.

The most glaring difference between Narcissus and JA is that she didn't kill herself, she killed her Nemessis, (TA).

Thanks - and yes, I do see that, and as for the bolded, often really a fine line between suicide and homicide.

As Rilke says, "Killing is a form of our wandering mourning."

I agree that psychopathology can remain latent until a catalyst sparks the action. I think Jodi's dyed hair, breast implants, covering the more modest Mexican-looking girl gave her the ability to go after a Travis (himself a more than a bit grandiose in his presentation)---had she remained looking as she naturally was, and gone for a more modest guy, the ending would have I am sure been less tragic.

Lisa was not particularly impressed with Travis: Found him too controlling, cheating , non-supportive, demeaning of her aspirations to be a teacher, and too hungry for compliments.

 

[SMK]

You are not alone in your theory of the dueling narcissists in the JA/TA relationship. As you, I believe JA was the more extreme by far. I believe there may have been a big, ugly, bloody wound in the core of her being when the man of her dreams rejected her. And the only way to salvage herself and stop the pain she could not tolerate, was to kill the (in her mind) offender. And now that he is dead, she can once again,be the calm, serene and charming self she showed in her 48 Hours TV program. She regained her equilibrium, so to speak.

Yes. Absolutely.