Armchair Psych Profile and Treatment

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If you actually analyze it and assume more , she could have lose her license more for talking to Beta TEAM if she divulge informations on JH's medical records to them ( specially if JH is actually no longer a student there at that time )

Bear in mind that Fenton has 2 roles here. She as his paid psychiatrist ( being paid by JH's student health insurance - this is not FREE from the school, JH pay for this separately) and She as a faculty member of this school.

ALL IMO!
~respectfully snipped~

Another role:

"Fenton, who is a principal member of the BETA team, discussed Holmes’ behavior in separate conversations with other team members in early June, six weeks before the shooting."

Source: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/02...-colleagues-of-possible-danger/#ixzz22R0qs3Vd


Could it be that the doctor was trying to juggle too many balls? :waitasec:
 
gitana1, thanks for that part of your post that says,

"However, if he makes statements that concern her that amount to less than a direct threat and she contacts the police, she opens herself up to a breach of confidentiality and a lawsuit."
 
Would she be subject to being sued though if she called the police? I realize the timing of this and what was said to the doctor is most important. Keep thinking the doctor knew he going to do something, and didn't even protect herself by doing enough. I think she probably just hoped he'd go away, wherever, bye-bye nice to know you. A lax stance perhaps.

IMO who will actually sue her? JH ? Since we know already that he purchased his weapons and ammunitions since May 2012 , i doubt that he will even sue her IMO. This guy made already a plan before June 2012 IMO
 
would have absolutely NOT have broken confidentiality
fufilling duty to warn obligations is like
I. Duty to warn
a. confidentiality
b. priviledged communication

Duty is over confidentiality! It is number one with a bullet , and she attempted but dropped the ball with a bloated system

Millions of practioniers are in private practice, they have no "teams" they need to mess with, they call LE ....................
 
something to think again :


Campus police, whose officers participate in the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team, have said they had no contact with Holmes. Other team members reached in recent days declined to discuss Holmes.

so are these campus police/University police also part of LE ?

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash...trist-before/cbe629769f38fde555ff50c55141b857

The University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus Police Department strives to provide a safe and secure campus environment for students, faculty, staff and visitors.
Every police officer is certified in the State of Colorado as a Level One Peace Officer,
which gives them full police arrest and enforcement powers
They are complemented by non-sworn, unarmed uniformed security officers. Police dispatchers provide coverage 24/7, year round, to campus facilities located at the Anschutz Medical Campus in Aurora
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/Pages/UniversityPolice.aspx

Second time I read this article, and it still bugs me. I absolutely find the touting of the school caring, and it's demand of students almost distasteful. I can't help but sense they hoped to cover up something until that notebook arrived. JMO, just saying.
 
It is all based on the credential of the provider. The setting does not matter. When a credentialed person feels the need for the client to be further evaluated for invol commimment it IS intiated by that professionial. In that instance LE is basically the taxi.

If your neighbor called LE and said you needed to be commited THEN LE , on scene would make a determination regarding transport.

ITs logical -- who is more qualified to determine if further eval is necc mental health provider or LE.

Its a training thing ....
 
See I think where the confusion is , is the folks that are actually doing the committing (formal) are the folks in the hospital. THe intiating order , is only stating that an evaluation MUST be undertaken by a in-patient facility.

BUT, I do not know of one instance wherein the in -patient team did not concur with the outpatient provider and commit.
 
have helped him until he found a Doc

BY law you must, otherwise it is abandoment.
 
Since we our on the blame game train. What about the government?

Civil commitment is necessary form of preventative detention. But the entire US legal and constitutional system is organized to protect people from preventive detention.

Unless he made and confirmed a threat to commit a violent act, he would not be commited.

Call 911? Have him evaluated? The doctors can only take his word. And his word may have been "I'm fine." They wouldn't have access to his gun purchases, bomb planning, etc.

She was his doctor, she should know. Maybe she did. Maybe she insisted a judge strip away his constitutional right of freedom and the judge denied.

It's scary to think one phone call can get a person stripped away of his or her rights to freedom.

I think he is scary and a danger but, really, I hate to think where this may snowball when people are saying - just call the cops, they'll put him away against his will.
 
IMO who will actually sue her? JH ? Since we know already that he purchased his weapons and ammunitions since May 2012 , i doubt that he will even sue her IMO. This guy made already a plan before June 2012 IMO

I think the plan started before May.

Do I think JH could sue her? Sure, inmates sue all of the time. Doesn't mean it would work, but if she did not follow s.o.p., he could and probably would try. Blame reversal and inmate self amusement. If he will, I have no idea. moo
 
I think the plan started before May.

Do I think JH would sue her? Sure, inmates sue all of the time. Doesn't mean it would work, but if she did not follow s.o.p., he could and probably would try. Blame reversal and inmate self amusement.

For other cases yes i agree , but on this case with JH? I dont know... i doubt but we'll never know till we have all the info IMO...
 
For other cases yes i agree , but on this case with JH? I dont know... i doubt but we'll never know till we have all the info IMO...

If he is convicted, gets life in prison, he may. I was not saying he will in the first post, just saying inmates do it. Sometimes they hold a grudge and think they are bothering whomever, sometimes they take up jail house lawyering, sometimes they really think someone would believe it.

Will this guy? I don't know. We don't even have any facts yet, just speculate with each day's new leak. :)
 
And this is why I strongly believe that whatever "it" was that piqued Fenton's awareness regarding the shooter it IMO was non specific and being non specific she IMO followed the appropriate procedure of bringing her concern before the school's BETA group..

Of course just like everyone else here I can only speculate with the minuscule amount of facts known at this time, but for now I am definitely of the opinion that whatever "it" was that brought about the UNWANTED ATTENTION on the shooter.. That it was very likely non specific and even possibly just a highly educated and experienced intuition that this DR may have picked up on but had no concrete evidence of anything or anyone specific being in harms way.. I believe that if "it" was something of a nature which consisted of specific threats and/or any specific targets whatsoever that this experienced dr would have absolutely have broken confidentiality and sought out and involved the appropriate agencies(LE, etc)..

Her not taking that route leads me to the conclusion that the issue, statement, action, or behavior that she witnessed of the shooter was quite likely nothing major, nothing at all specific, and as I said even possibly was just this woman's intuition that she picked up on in just her regular contact she had with the shooter as one of his professors, admn, dr, etc..

Again with so very little to base and theorize on.. It leaves the spectrum of speculation wide open and widely varying from person to person and opinion to opinion.. But with that very little known and knowing that she did bring the shooter to the attention of the BETA group.. And as far as we know DID NOT seek out assistance from LE or other agencies ..*

I now have a totally different perspective and view of the shooter's withdrawing from the program.. Until now it's been assumed that his officially withdrawing from the program was due to the fact that he was progressing poorly, failed miserably on the oral testing that was given, and that overall the withdrawal from the program was even indicative of the spiraling and decline of him mentally..

I now am not at all certain that ANY of those aforementioned assumptions just listed have anything whatsoever to do with his decision to officially withdraw from the program.. I now definitely believe at the very least that it is a possibility that the decision and especially the timing of his officially withdrawing from the program having nothing to do with academics.. Nor anything to do with a decline in his mental health.. I now believe that the decision and timing of withdrawing had everything to do with Fenton's having become aware and/or noticing or having knowledge of the shooter being a threat or risk.. Again not knowing how Fenton became aware of any concerns for the shooter..as in did he blurt something out to her, or was there a specific action or behavior she had witnessed, or was it even more non specific than that as in more of just her intuition picking up on subtleties in him.. Those unknown factors and variables are critical details..*

But in speculating I find it altogether possible that the shooter after having given himself away in some manner to the dr, he immediately realized the err of his way and that the repercussions of her having even the slightest of suspicions about him..This could absolutely have derailed his entire months of hard work and planning for his mass murder..

The shooter had to counteract with a measure that would immediately halt any further unwanted attention his way which absolutely could have in some manner thwarted his long, premeditated mass murder agenda he had planned for opening night of TDKR.. That counteraction by the shooter was swift and immediate in diffusing the situation before it could even reach a level of real concern, worry, etc which is what would have likely ruined all of his many hours, days, weeks, and months of methodical, calculating preparation to kill as many as possible that late night/early morning of July 19/20.. And that is just something that the shooter could not allow(his plan thwarted)..

It is this that led to the immediate and official withdrawl from the program, from the college, and even physically removing himself from access to the campus.. This would halt in its track any further "issues" that Dr Fenton know posed as a threat to the shooter.. The timing of his choosing to officially withdraw from the program, the school, the campus, and even the apt complex HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT DR FENTON HAD THE SHOOTER ON HER RADAR, so to speak and the shooter knew that in order to neutralize that issue that the counteract had to be strong..

Well IMO it doesn't get any stronger and anymore absolutely diffused than when a person who for what was likely a minor, non specific reason had become on this dr's radar and she had brought his name before the school's BETA group.. What more efficient way to ensure the person poses zero threat in the least to the school, faculty, or students.. Than for the individual to completely and totally remove himself from the entire equation as a whole???.. IMO it doesn't get more resolved than that..

And IMO its exactly why I strongly, strongly believe that the shooters decision and especially the timing of his decision to officially, permenantly, and immediately withdraw fully from the program, the school, the campus, and even the student apartments.. Nothing to do with poor progression academically, poor testing on the orals, or anything even remotely related to academia or DECLINE IN MENTAL HEALTH ...

It had everything to do with his determination to absolutely carry out his long and well thought out plan of mass murder without interruption from a dr, who for whatever reason(variable still unknown) had put this student on her radar and informed the BETA group of his existence..

His counteract could not have been timed, not worked more perfectly than exactly how he executed it.. Chilling.. Absolutely chilling to think about the amount of well thought out processes, choices, and decisions that went into his making damn certain his agenda was carried out..

All jmo
Great post. Smooth! As I was reading it you know what struck me, so many folks, it seems, are focusing on the spoken word, a concrete overt threat verbally. . Wherein, for the professional, it is based on behavioral observation in conjunction with verbalizations.

When you stated he immediately realized the error of his ways my next thought was your giving him too much orientation to reality.

And I understand it’s really hard, for a lot of folks, to not cross over to the fact that James Holmes, in James Holmes mind, did not kill anybody - the joker did. And, in my opinion, until that essential notion can be embraced it’s really hard to understand how sick indeed this kid was.

Another fascinating component of your post was when you said the person poses zero threat in the least to the school faculty or students. It was an interesting way to say exactly what I’ve maintained the entire time.

Again your notions that he was oriented and living in a realistic world wherein my contention is that he was completely out of reality-however-both of our conclusions, are the same --- in that he did not voluntarily withdraw -- basically administration kicked him out and then lied about it, because of the “danger” component!

However, as far as the Dr. goes, it is totally irrelevant whether he remained in the program or not. Her legal, ethical, and moral obligations, upon becoming aware, that in her opinion, he was dangerous - it was her obligation to see to it that he was evaluated in an in-patient setting to determine if he met involuntary commitment criteria.
Great post thanx!
 
Colorado shooting: What can college threat-assessment teams do? ( link )
By Michael Muskal
August 2, 2012, 2:42 p.m.

But what the threat assessment committee did – or didn’t – do could become a key legal issue at the complicated intersection of mental health and the law. Some of the related questions could focus on the criminal case; others could involve civil liability.

About 80% of colleges have some form of threat assessment team, Brett A. Sokolow, executive director of the National Behavioral Intervention Team Assn., said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times. The association has 700 to 800 active members and serves as a clearinghouse for information related to threat assessment teams, including training and implementation.
 
Girl, Benzo's were my drug of choice. I'd have passed up a Vicodin for a Benzo (pretty much any one of 'em) any day, all day. They treat two totally different things but both are highly addictive. I can't imagine any Doc giving someone Vicodin for anxiety, it's a pain pill.

(Hi. I've been lurking for a while and decided to comment.)

You are right, Vicodin is an opioid and not indicated for anxiety whatsoever. Vicodin would definitely not have been prescribed for anxiety. A psychiatrist would not typically prescribe any pain pills to a client anyway.
There's really no telling what class of medication may have been prescribed for JH because we don't know his medical diagnosis. There are options for non-sedating meds to treat anxiety, such as Buspirone or an SSRI.

Also, we don't know the specifications so we don't know if he would have potentially qualified for an involuntary commitment to the psych ward for evaluation. It's just sad to think that something as small as a police wellness check may have prevented this.

Why do you have all this gasoline in your apartment?
 
Yes she can call the Police on JH.
It is always the discretion of the Psychiatrist to detect if calling the cops is needed. They always have what you call a "judgement call" . If her words is really - JH is danger to others , then she should just call LE for that 72 hours evaluation hold... but then again , this will give us another question - how did we know she didnt call or she call LE for that?

These questions are endless :)

Here is a copy of the Colorado Law in this Area: more on the link about the 72 hour hold.

27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section.


http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado...-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html


BUT, if a DOCTOR is part of a University program, then there are channels they have to go through, by law and their contract, BEFORE they call police.
 
Involuntary mental health confinement: a ‘gray area’ ( link )
Nightly News | Aired on August 02, 2012

Before James Holmes quit his neuroscience Ph.D. program he was being treated by psychiatrist Dr. Lynn Fenton at the University of Colorado, but there was no apparent move to impose a 72-hour mental health evaluation on Holmes, something that is available under Colorado law. NBC’s Mike Taibbi reports.
 
The answer is yes.
A direct threat is not required, EXAMPLE: self mutilation is not a direct threat some of them pull their hair out, they cut themselves....attempt suicide. Just to mention 2 out of hundreds of other ways you can hospitalize against their will. IF THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEMSELVS OR OTHERS - you don’t take any chances you hospitalize.

We do not know why his physiatrist was alarmed by his behavior. BUT SHE WAS ALARMED.

But the only PUBLIC thing we saw so far was him dying his hair. Dying your hair and and explicit rage, isn't enough to say this boy gave her any reason to believe he would actually do SOMETHING to express his rage. She thought he MIGHT be a threat, and she did what she COULD do because of her contract with the University. After JH started the withdraw process, what was she to do?

He had rage and he dyed his hair. My now 22 year old daughter did that at 17, but she was never a threat to anyone. She was just angry and young. Maybe this DR thought the same about JH,

If my daughter turned out to be the Mass Murder this man has become, would I be at fault for just thinking she is young and stupid? As she turned out to be?
 
BUT, if a DOCTOR is part of a University program, then there are channels they have to go through, by law and their contract, BEFORE they call police.

She works for the University but at the same time she has a Colorado medical license to follow Colorado medical etiquettes and laws IMO.
 
Colorado shooting: What can college threat-assessment teams do? ( link )
By Michael Muskal
August 2, 2012, 2:42 p.m.



About 80% of colleges have some form of threat assessment team, Brett A. Sokolow, executive director of the National Behavioral Intervention Team Assn., said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times. The association has 700 to 800 active members and serves as a clearinghouse for information related to threat assessment teams, including training and implementation.

I still don't see any answers on what these teams can do if the student voluntarily leaves the university and they lose jurisdiction.
 

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