ARREST!!! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#23

[plentyofnous]

I think before this disintegrates we can agree that within the law the rights of the children are upmost but that as a parent or a grandparent there are precedents and legal arguments that would allow sensibility to occur. If the grandparents are a large part of the day to day life of a child then it would not be unusual for the grandparents to be granted some access in a custody order.

Child protection is a difficult and different issue. The QPS and DOCS would have had to have significant evidence to suggest that the children were at grave physical and emotional risk to have them taken from the BC's even with GBC in gaol. My understanding is that OW is designated guardian and that hasn't been followed. Even though GBC may have harmed his wife and under law there is a presumption of innocence, he has not to my knowledge harmed his children. I truly believe that there is something else in the pipeline for this family otherwise the Dickies would not have been able to gain temporary custody. I also understand that the Dickies had been completely cut off form the girls recently which may also have been an influencing factor. Sorry I cannot expose my source on this so MOO

Regardless of what we think or feel and believe me I feel a lot about this issue. Nothing has yet been proven. No one has been convicted and there is a lot of trial by media and a lot of attitude about who and what people think on this forum. We are entitled to believe what we believe and to raise an opinion. I so didn't want it to go down like this. I don't want GBC to have had anything to do with this. I have struggled to mesh what I know of this family and what is sprouted by others now and find they don't quite mesh.

I shudder to think what spin people could take on my life if it were put under this kind of scrutiny. See one situation one way, twist the view a fraction through someone else's eyes and see something completely different. I think this is the issue we in this community are struggling with. How could we live, work and play beside this family, socialise with them, have play dates with their daughters and not see any of this evil. Those girls have lost everything. I don't know how they come back from that even with loving grandparents. They have been exposed to evil and potentially evil their father brought in the door.

I hope that sensibility reigns in this and the girls are utmost in everyone's mind when decisions about them are made. They need very special handling and a major custody dispute is not in their best interests.

If an Application is made in the Family Court, then it take lots of money and time to get to some decision if that Application was opposed.
I think the “risk” you allude to is, IMO the media interest, and sorry to bust everyones “media has the best interests of children at heart”, they were camped there while the kids were there
IMO the Court would have placed them with the Dickies initially based on what evidence DOCS produced , normally, if children are comfortable, looked after by able and willing parent or relative, then normally no movement would need to take place during this assessment period. IMO because the children and GBC had moved back to Brookfield , IMO, it became logical and the most strategic time to swoop and achieve - 1 placement with Dickies, 2 Access to Girls 3 Expiry of Temp Order leaving placement of girls with Dickies and 4 if and when any Family Court action is commenced, status quo is already in place
I am not naive enough to think for one minute this is not just a strategic game IMO

 

[grannie]

Interesting handshake. Me going off topic. No relevance to case.

Hawkins, the GBC's facial expression is quite interesting (unexpected).. considering that he is a seasoned and devoted liberal. JMO

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

But UT, if it had been stabbing, I have no idea but would there not be a LOT of blood, at the house, in the car, the route from the house to the car etc etc? I guess we don't know there wasn't do we.

I'm just guessing. but I have to say if you left alot of blood, you would clean it up to what you could visibly see, wouldn't you? Thats when the forensic and DNA anlysis comes in to find what the naked eye may not easily see.

MOO

 

[Completelyconfused]

Thanks! If OW is designated guardian, what exactly does that mean and what role do the Dickies play in comparison, having temporary custody?

Sorry to clarify - it's my understanding that things (legal documents) had been put in place by GBC for this eventuality (yes even he saw it coming) that OW would be the designated guardian.

Because of this and because clearly there is something else a foot,a temporary custody hearing was scheduled and DOCS waited at the school until those documents were cleared for the Dickies to take custody. The court disregarded the legal papers GBC had drawn up for OW. The BC's have not been allowed to see the girls at all at this point.

 

[plentyofnous]

Thanks! If OW is designated guardian, what exactly does that mean and what role do the Dickies play in comparison, having temporary custody?

means little, the Family Court, who have overiding powers in matters of children, will not IMO recognise any document/agreement other than from them

and role will be short term care , however IMO order would have lapsed by now, unless they applied for an extension of time to hear outcome of bail hearing, and assuming innocent until proven guilty, then that would be the "in the best interests", however IMO that would not have occurred

 

[CaseClosed]

He is not a person of interest he has been charged

... semantics ... but, sorry, the alleged accused with murdering Allison.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

well. Gerard is a terrible driver... that I can say with confidence, and without knowing him personally.

I think that I can say with confidence that Gerard lies readily and often. :slap:

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

The lack of attention paid to this is interesting. A murder conviction carries a life sentence which means the offender cannot apply for parole until 15 years and 1 day after conviction. If there was also a conviction for interference it would not affect the sentence in any way. Although there is provision for the court to order that sentences be served consecutively, this matter doesn't fit within any of the existing common law guidelines which enliven the exercise of that discretion. It is not a circumstance of aggravation for murder, there are no circumstances of aggravation for murder in Qld because of the mandatory life sentence.

There are a couple of possibilities as to why it was added to the indictment (if in fact it survives to be included). It could be suggested that if there is eventually a plea bargain and the accused pleads guilty to manslaughter in answer to the charge of murder on the indictment, that the DPP will require a plea to guilty for the interference charge also, to the effect of increasing the overall penalty. It could be that the circumstances of the interference do, in fact, enliven the discretion as to ordering consecutive sentences.

It could, alternatively, be that the police feel that the circumstances of the interference are so offensive that the community needs to be able to formally express its feelings about this to the offender by way of a conviction, regardless of whether it can figure in the sentence for a manslaughter conviction. That would involve extra time, stress and expense at trial.

It is interesting that the media do not seem to be pursuing the reason behind this inclusion of a second charge, given its apparent lack of impact on the proceedings. MOO.

BBM..
Hawkins thanks for your informative posts. I have to say you do my head in sometimes! lol.. Ok so I'm not well and so the brain is foggy..I had to read your post over a few times!

The bit I bolded. I just want to say I do hope its not that. My original thought about the interferance was just relating to the movement of the body from the where the murder took place. However I have had a little niggling question whether it is more than that by the way it has been worded.. I hope not. not that the former is good either..but the latter..

 

[Trooper]

I think that I can say with confidence that Gerard lies readily and often. :slap:

I am rather certain , Bob, that you can say that without knowing him.. I am nearly confident enough to say his taste in jackets leaves a lot to be desired, but I dont know him well enough to state that with complete certainty not having seen his entire wardrobe.

 

[KG1]

Hubby and I were talking about this (oddly over dinner) on Friday night. The kids were off playing, with other patrons and we talked extensively abotu the BC case.....as he knows im so interested. When I said to him the GBC was also being charged with unlawful interference of a corpse.....He literally dropped his fork. He was "WOW....What did he do to her?"....Obviously, I didnt know. He was floored.....................Because often in cases, the perp moves the corpse, but doesnt get charged for it....Some have even buried the corpse. Is the guy who harmed young Daniel being charged with this?...I dont know.

BUt, he seemed to be of the impression that he must have done something serious to her body post death. He also thinks this is how it tends to be reflected in court.......If it is a minor interference, then the charge may be incorporated into the time he does for murder.....if severe, then they may treat them seperate and oncehe has finished his time for murder, may then have to do time for that 2nd charge.

I didnt say anything, but to me, for a police officer to drop his fork and find it bizarre that this charge has been given, was very telling.

Brisbane Times 13/8/2011 -


FOR eight years, missing teenager Daniel Morcombe's parents have waited for an answer.

The 13-year-old was last seen at a bus stop at Woombye on the Sunshine Coast on December 7, 2003. He was on his way to Sunshine Plaza Shopping Centre to buy family Christmas presents and get a haircut but he never came home.

Tomorrow, a 41-year-old man, who lives in Perth, will face Brisbane Magistrates Court, charged with murdering the Queensland teenager. He has also been charged with deprivation of liberty, child stealing and interfering with a corpse

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...disappeared-20110813-1iryp.html#ixzz1y3AtiSHo

 

[plentyofnous]

Sorry to clarify - it's my understanding that things (legal documents) had been put in place by GBC for this eventuality (yes even he saw it coming) that OW would be the designated guardian.

Because of this and because clearly there is something else a foot,a temporary custody hearing was scheduled and DOCS waited at the school until those documents were cleared for the Dickies to take custody. The court disregarded the legal papers GBC had drawn up for OW. The BC's have not been allowed to see the girls at all at this point.

I think the BC s screaming at QPS is not good for them child wise.

Now if the children were residing at the BC s , then that custody would have been so much harder to change IMO

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

PS ; yeah, i know....1000 posts...a bit embarrassing really....But oh well, ive always had a big mouth.... :blushing:

I feel your embarresment!:blushing: I think I better shut up now! lol

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

I am rather certain , Bob, that you can say that without knowing him.. I am nearly confident enough to say his taste in jackets leaves a lot to be desired, but I dont know him well enough to state that with complete certainty not having seen his entire wardrobe.

Trooper

I agree that most of us know too little about Gerard's wardrobe to make such a broad statement about his taste in clothes. It's also possible that the C21 dress code is a confounding factor in this assessment.

Also, I don't know enough about Gerard to assess whether he's a pathological liar or not, but I have my suspicions. Fortunately, I will probably never have the opportunity to assess him in person.

 

[bearbear]

sorry i missed this...did gbc make ow legal guardian to the girls? when did he do that? was it recently or ages ago? was it in one of the papers? does anyone have a link please?

 

[plentyofnous]

sorry i missed this...did gbc make ow legal guardian to the girls? when did he do that? was it recently or ages ago? was it in one of the papers? does anyone have a link please?

a court and only a court can grant custody of a child, regardless of wishes

 

[Trooper]

Trooper

I agree that most of us know too little about Gerard's wardrobe to make such a broad statement about his taste in clothes. It's also possible that the C21 dress code is a confounding factor in this assessment.

Also, I don't know enough about Gerard to assess whether he's a pathological liar or not, but I have my suspicions. Fortunately, I will probably never have the opportunity to assess him in person.

God has spared us both that unhappy experience, Bobbie.

I think your judgement re his pathalogical lying has much to reccomend it. Our Boy only spoke once about this whole horror, with SIs riding shotgun, and in that little cameo, he said.. 'I've given the police everything I can to help'... now we find, he didnt, or wouldnt and I am going wouldnt, give his DNA or hair samples. He had to be arrested for that piece of cooperation.

So... based on that one thing.. I'd say your call was on the money, Bob. Even without knowing him personally.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

As I said above this charge would have no effect on a murder sentence for an adult. I know of cases where it has been added to a murder indictment for juveniles where it could affect the sentence because there was no mandatory life penalty for them.

The charge of interference does come up now and then for adult accused but in conjunction with a manslaughter charge, not murder. If there has been interference and there is a conviction for that, then that can significantly increase the gravity of the manslaughter charge, rather then result in an additional penalty.

I don't like to speculate on outcomes but I would not be surprised in the slightest if the interference charge is there because the prosecution has doubts about the weight of its evidence regarding intention even at this early stage. Depending on how his lawyers assess the weight of evidence, he might be very well advised to consider offering a plea of guilty to manslaughter. All just MOO.

Thanks Hawkins for this, and your previous post, but i have to disagree (once again...sorry :blushing. I understand that at times, factors relating to a murder charge fall under a joinder of charges, where the term 'murder' itself encompasses interference of corpse etc, right?. I have limited knowledge of this, and i would appreciate your feedback, as it seems you have a better understanding in general of crim law. So, i do see what you are saying here...

However....
I have found a few murder charges, even where more than one count of murder is involved, that also carry an 'interference with corpse' charge, see:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/qld/QCA/2008/395.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=interference%20with%20a%20corpse

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/s...0&synonyms=0&query=interference with a corpse

These are both COA cases.

So, it seems that it is added to murder indictment in some cases. Whether or not that is the case here, or its mention is only an indication that a manslaughter charge may occur instead, we will have to wait and see.

Am i correct in saying that an initial charge of murder may be reduced to manslaughter, but a manslaughter charge is not able to be increased to a murder charge? That is what my understanding has been, and would explain the murder charge, as it means they have covered all their bases, in the event that the murder charge sticks.

All due respect to you, Hawkins. I look forward to further discussion on this

 

[CaseClosed]

Trooper

I agree that most of us know too little about Gerard's wardrobe to make such a broad statement about his taste in clothes. It's also possible that the C21 dress code is a confounding factor in this assessment.

Also, I don't know enough about Gerard to assess whether he's a pathological liar or not, but I have my suspicions. Fortunately, I will probably never have the opportunity to assess him in person.

Great wording. :floorlaugh:

 

[bearbear]

a court and only a court can grant custody of a child, regardless of wishes

ok, thanks for your reply, but im just wondering when gbc made ow the guardian of his children?
i saw it mentioned a few posts back and just wondering if its true and where the info came from?
if it was recently its a bit of an odd thing to do imo!!

 

[Completelyconfused]

sorry i missed this...did gbc make ow legal guardian to the girls? when did he do that? was it recently or ages ago? was it in one of the papers? does anyone have a link please?

Info came from a source close to the BC family, sorry can't say more than that.