Attorney Seeks To Spare Casey Anthony From Death Penalty

[OneLostGrl]

I'm sad for her and angry that her example is used to show that women who suffer PPD murder their children. This precendent is used by psycho husbands to try and prove that that their wives are "bad mothers."

Her example needs to be there though. Society just needs to realize that she is an extreme case. As is the use of NGBRI.. it is not for people like Casey or Susan Smith, it is there for the Andrea Yates of the world.

It is not as easy as people think it is to attempt to use a NGBRI defense.

 

[OneLostGrl]

It took me 10 minutes to figure out what NGBRI means, I'll have you know.

I'm sorry! :blowkiss:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Hi thanks BeanE its something that has been bugging me since she was indited (see we don't have that here either) makes it confusing...

So with all the media on this will she get a fair trial? as in without a body could they actually send her down for the death penalty ?

I just cant see a fair trial happening with the media hype on this case , after all, the pics that have been circulating are disgusting (some of them)

And whatever the particulars are - everyone deserves the right to a fair trial.

But you would think given whats on the table , if it was an accident that she covered up that she would SPILL the beans by now ?

Maybe her Mother
(cindy)did it ? and she is protecting her mother, on the promise of something ? weird I know but I dont get why she isnt plea bargaining or coughing her guts up, and saying it was a accident and the body is blah blah...

Shes just like cruising through jail like its NOTHING to be in there for murdering a child ... its so bizarre !

My bold. I still toss that thought around in my head.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Well people here say she is narcissistic, a sociopath and has an avoidance disorder. That would very well make a case for a mental disorder or mental illness. It's not fair to say she shouldn't use that defense, but at the same time claim she has these disorders.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Nope not gonna happen.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I have to respectfully disagree with you, Sammiejam. In the state of NC, these disorders will qualify you for Mental Health Counseling, Medication Evaluations, and Community Support Services- they are classified as Mental Health Disorders.

The difference is in the criteria for diagnosis, or her "symptoms". If we see manic and/or depressive symptoms in someone that has Bipolar, people would typically say, "That person is mentally ill." People do not typically think of manipulation and lying as mentally ill, though. Also, you do not typically see someone receiving mental health services for just a Personality Disorder. There is typically a co-occuring disorder (like a Substance Abuse Diagnosis, for example.) Why? Because people get into treatment by self or family report that they think something is wrong with them. Someone with a Personality Disorder is probably not ever going to think any thing is wrong with them. It is the rest of the world that is wrong, in their opinion. And friends and family are just going to say, "She is such a liar!" or "He is so manipulative!"

I don't know of any cases in particular where a Personality Disorder was used as a defense. (Though there may have been some.) My guess is that her psychological profile will come out with yes, a Personality Disorder, but also something else like Bipolar, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, etc... The defense would use one of these to attempt to justify her being mentally ill.

No way, I doubt she has any Axis I disorders.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Personality disorders are classed under Mental disorders. Mental disorders and mental illness are used interchangeably.

My understanding is that if she has what has been claimed, she then she has a mental disorder i.e mental illnesses. Do I think that negates the probable fact she killed Caylee? No. Absolutely not. However if she has such disorders, they are obviously going to be used in her defense. Because a personality disorder is a subset of mental disorder/mental illness, a personality disorder (particularly multiple PDs) falls into the realm of 'illness'. Therefore if she has sociopathy, NPD, APD, so on and so forth, it would be legitimate to say that she has mental disorders (or mental illnesses) - is that the causation of Caylee's death? I don't think so.

There are several different Axis in the DSMIV, Depressive, psychotic and Mood disorders are on Axis I, which are Clinical Syndromes. Personality disorders have their own little place under Axis II which are Developmental Disorders and Personality Disorders.

So, while Personality disorders are listed in the DSM as mental illnesses, they are seperated from your typical mental illnesses for a reason. They are not considered a clinical illness and are treated differently by not only those in the mental health community (no medication approved to treat the disorders, therapy often won't work etc) but the legal community as well.


Here is a link to the DSM info I talked about above so people don't think I'm just talking out of my a$$. http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html

 

[OneLostGrl]

Regardless of the mental disorder all that the state would have to prove is that she knew at the time right from wrong.

Again...The capital felony was committed while the defendant was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance

I do not think a jury will find that this is the case. Nor do I think a Judge will find it in sentencing. If this was the case the KC would have not gone through the extreme of covering up the crime, thus showing she knew right from wrong!

I agree. She will never even get to be able to present that defense!

 

[Marina2]

Respectfully snipped.

So, while Personality disorders are listed in the DSM as mental illnesses, they are seperated from your typical mental illnesses for a reason. They are not considered a clinical illness and are treated differently by not only those in the mental health community (no medication approved to treat the disorders, therapy often won't work etc) but the legal community as well.

Here is a link to the DSM info I talked about above so people don't think I'm just talking out of my a$$. http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html

I remember when we were doing our psyche rotation in nursing school how they stressed the difference in personality disorders vs clinical mental illness. It was said that they take a lifetime to develop and for this reason they are nearly impossible to treat, if at all.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I have a friend who had it after the birth of both of her children... The first child, I don't think she seeked medical help for it but did overcome it by herself by the time her daughter was 6 months old. With her last one, her father actually called her obgyn and "told" on her, they medicated her and was over it by the time the baby was 5 months old. And she was SEVERELY depressed after the last one. So I would think 2 1/2 years would be an extreme case of depression... one that would have resulted in harm way before it actually did. And honestly, I don't think depression would result in her acting so caloused afterwards... I would think that she would be extremely emotional, not no emotion at all. But then again, I am not a medical profressional so this is all just my opinion. :crazy:

Well, you are right, if she was suffering from PPD she would be emotional and depressed. There are criteria one must meet in order to be diagnosed with an illness. In order to be diagnosed with PPD, depression would have to be present.

ETA- Just so we are clear- I'm not a medical profesional either just someone who has been there.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think all of the PPD, PMS, PMD "post miscarriage", could be said by the defense as undiagnosed and untreated and used as "diminished responsbility" to lower to murder charge to manslaughter, or to avoid the dp.

It'll never happen.. they will never get it past a judge, let alone a jury. IMO

 

[OneLostGrl]

oh I agree, but I am just pointing out that KC is even worse than Susan Smith, because she is still lying and will not take responsibility. They both killed their children for a man and freedom.

yeah- at least Susan came clean, I get what you mean.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Respectfully snipped.


I remember when we were doing our psyche rotation in nursing school how they stressed the difference in personality disorders vs clinical mental illness. It was said that they take a lifetime to develop and for this reason they are nearly impossible to treat, if at all.

And they fight treatment.

 

[nancy botwin]

Nope not gonna happen.

I agree-- IMO that memo was just part of how the game is played. The defense isn't committing themselves to raising the affirmative defense of insanity at trial-- they're just doing what they should be doing in a capital murder case-- playing the contingencies and trying to get the best outcome for their client. They can use the rhetoric of mental disturbance at this stage in the game without admitting anything or locking themselves into a strategy. They want the death penalty off the table and they want jury instructions related to an accidental death or manslaughter.
At trial, IMO, they are going to run a predictable defense and attack the evidence etc and we won't hear more about Casey's alleged mental delicacy, or whatever, until sentencing.

 

[Marina2]

And they fight treatment.

Because it is not them that have the problem; it's everyone else. This is why I think Casey will reject the MH defense.

 

[JaneInOz]

Well, you are right, if she was suffering from PPD she would be emotional and depressed. There are criteria one must meet in order to be diagnosed with an illness. In order to be diagnosed with PPD, depression would have to be present.

ETA- Just so we are clear- I'm not a medical profesional either just someone who has been there.

I don't know, I don't think that someone with PPD even a late onset one would be able to smile like a Toothpaste Ad the way Casey does :crosseyed:

Unless she also had BPD , NPD etc and a tendency for psychosis....

Depressives (especially ones with PPD) don't usually party and enjoy life so well like Casey did...

Just saw the pics (more) on those released docs and despite the size there is no mistaking Casey because of those huge white choppers that she displays as I said like a toothpaste ad, Ive never seen anything quite like it - except ON a Toothpaste , dental ad ! LOL

 

[OneLostGrl]

I don't know, I don't think that someone with PPD even a late onset one would be able to smile like a Toothpaste Ad the way Casey does :crosseyed:

Unless she also had BPD , NPD etc and a tendency for psychosis....

Depressives (especially ones with PPD) don't usually party and enjoy life so well like Casey did...

Just saw the pics (more) on those released docs and despite the size there is no mistaking Casey because of those huge white choppers that she displays as I said like a toothpaste ad, Ive never seen anything quite like it - except ON a Toothpaste , dental ad ! LOL

Ohh, I know- that's what I meant in my post... she shows no signs of depression so there is obviously no PPD involved.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Because it is not them that have the problem; it's everyone else. This is why I think Casey will reject the MH defense.

I agree. That and she's afraid of mommy's reaction if she admits what happened. IMO

 

[nancy botwin]

I don't know, I don't think that someone with PPD even a late onset one would be able to smile like a Toothpaste Ad the way Casey does :crosseyed:

Unless she also had BPD , NPD etc and a tendency for psychosis....

Depressives (especially ones with PPD) don't usually party and enjoy life so well like Casey did...

Just saw the pics (more) on those released docs and despite the size there is no mistaking Casey because of those huge white choppers that she displays as I said like a toothpaste ad, Ive never seen anything quite like it - except ON a Toothpaste , dental ad ! LOL

I think that IF the defense were actually going to go further with this, they might suggest that the post-partum onset of symptoms could indicate an undiagnosed disorder like Bipolar disorder. People with bipolar disorder are statistically more likely to experience PPD and PPP. Casey did say she had that alleged miscarriage in late spring-- May?? Which, if she really had PPD or PPP after Caylee's birth, she would be much more vulnerable to another PP disturbance-- maybe the hormonal imbalance created by the second pregnancy/miscarriage could have triggered another episode-- and the timing would coincide with Caylee's disappearance. I don't' think this is what happened with Casey and I don't even really believe she had a miscarriage. I think it's possible the defense could pull this half-cocked explanation out at sentencing for mitigation purposes. I don't think they would ever do it during trial.

I don't know-- OneLostGirl do you see this at all?-- it did sound like they were trying to bootstrap bipolar diagnostic criteria-- reckless spending, etc. It seemed they were angling for more than just PPD/P.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think that IF the defense were actually going to go further with this, they might suggest that the post-partum onset of symptoms could indicate an undiagnosed disorder like Bipolar disorder. People with bipolar disorder are statistically more likely to experience PPD and PPP. Casey did say she had that alleged miscarriage in late spring-- May?? Which, if she really had PPD or PPP after Caylee's birth, she would be much more vulnerable to another PP disturbance-- maybe the hormonal imbalance created by the second pregnancy/miscarriage could have triggered another episode-- and the timing would coincide with Caylee's disappearance. I don't' think this is what happened with Casey and I don't even really believe she had a miscarriage. I think it's possible the defense could pull this half-cocked explanation out at sentencing for mitigation purposes. I don't think they would ever do it during trial.

I don't know-- OneLostGirl do you see this at all?-- it did sound like they were trying to bootstrap bipolar diagnostic criteria-- reckless spending, etc. It seemed they were angling for more than just PPD/P.

I think you know (I hope so anyway- I don't talk about myself cuz I like it LOL) I always try to be honest when discussing this kind of thing. I mentioned when the case first began that I saw (heard) behaviors in Casey that reminded me of my own past behaviors such as stealing and lying, not holding down a job, lack of sexual morals.. But there are differences and things that set the seemingly same behaviors apart from one another.

Not that these behaviors are any better, I know I was wrong in what I did as well but this is the best way I can explain how the behaviors are different.. My stealing was done in stores, I'd never steal from my family or my friends. Lying for 2 years about having a job, faking emails from a boss, saying a parent had a stroke when they didn't. No- no way is that a symptom of Bipolar either- so while people with Bipolar may lie or steal or whatever while manic they don't bring it to that kind of sick demented level.

When the mania lets up so do our poor choices.. We have a conscience and morals and for the most part when we come down the damage we created is often enough to make us want to die. Casey has shown that she simply does not care- a person with Bipolar would care too much.

I hope this makes sense, I'm wicked tired so who knows LOL

 

[nancy botwin]

I think you know (I hope so anyway- I don't talk about myself cuz I like it LOL) I always try to be honest when discussing this kind of thing. I mentioned when the case first began that I saw (heard) behaviors in Casey that reminded me of my own past behaviors such as stealing and lying, not holding down a job, lack of sexual morals.. But there are differences and things that set the seemingly same behaviors apart from one another.

Not that these behaviors are any better, I know I was wrong in what I did as well but this is the best way I can explain how the behaviors are different.. My stealing was done in stores, I'd never steal from my family or my friends. Lying for 2 years about having a job, faking emails from a boss, saying a parent had a stroke when they didn't. No- no way is that a symptom of Bipolar either- so while people with Bipolar may lie or steal or whatever while manic they don't bring it to that kind of sick demented level.

When the mania lets up so do our poor choices.. We have a conscience and morals and for the most part when we come down the damage we created is often enough to make us want to die. Casey has shown that she simply does not care- a person with Bipolar would care too much.

I hope this makes sense, I'm wicked tired so who knows LOL

Thank you for responding-- you make perfect sense, despite the fatigue
I think I was unclear bc I'm tired too-- I blame daylight savings grrr.
I DO NOT think, Casey is bipolar or that a comprehensive read of her behavior would indicate bipolar disorder. I think that the memo seemed to hint at something more than PPD or PPP-- I thought it hinted at bipolar symptoms. I think the defense could try to bring all this out in sentencing as a mitigation scenario, saying that she was suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder and episodes could have been triggered by pregnancy. --Because I thought it was odd they seemed to tack on "classic" biopolar symptoms.
I VERY MUCH believe and know that people with bipolar disorder and other axis I conditions have a soul!! I think Casey's a psychopath, actually. I don't think she has a "soul" and I found the defense memo's allusions to psychiatric conditions irksome and disturbing. I was just wondering how far they would go with it. But I do agree with you, they are not going to try to pull a NGRI defense at trial.

So, to end the ramble, I wasn't in any way trying to insinuate that I think you and Casey are similar or behaved similarly. There's a big difference, obviously-- you know this. but I just wanted to be clear!!