AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce (Wynarka) and mum Karlie Pearce-Stevenson (Belanglo) #1

[fruity]

Sorry for the string of posts - I caught up with some of the overnight pages when I got up this morning but had to go out for a couple of hours. I'm done now. All caught up

 

[sunnybree]

I thought with young children you could because of the development stages of teeth, and the way the bones fuse in the skull?

http://australianmuseum.net.au/how-do-we-know-an-individuals-age-at-death

http://www.seattlechildrens.org/medical-conditions/bone-joint-muscle-conditions/craniosynostosis/

I think these articles actually support allowing a year or two for error--based on the info within, it was seem that their estimate of 2-4 years would be based partly on having all her baby teeth but no adult teeth (we do not know if the little ones teeth were all found or were still attached to her skull). Regarding skull fusion, according to the article the skull starts fusing at 2-3 years, so theoretically a two year old might have no evidence of the skull fusing together. Allowing some room to move on the child's age is wise--it means they won't run the risk of ruling children out of the investigation prematurely, they account for developmental delays that could be caused by illness, disability, abuse, or simply the child's individual genetics, and may avoid damaging a future prosecution (if one area of forensic analysis is incorrect, then the defense can attack the whole).

I also think that the case is not solved yet, and it is too soon to say yet if they have gone wrong or committed any systematic errors in the investigation of Khandalyce's murder. However in time there will be reflection and consideration given to this I am sure, as there has been to a number of challenging cases solved and unsolved.

In a change of topic, I also wanted to comment on the later picture of Karlie, now that I am caught up on the thread. I also think that she looks stressed and unwell, particularly when compared to the earlier picture of her. She is thinner and with dark shadows under her eyes. In this picture she looks nothing like the facial reconstruction that was created. In the earlier picture however there is a likeness.

 

[fruity]

Violent offenders in prison in NSW who were known to be in areas at the same time as Karlie and Khandalyce are among those questioned.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-provide-crucial-evidence.html#ixzz3pRc0tfIA

I'm back again. Catching up on news articles now. I know the DM is garbage (I'm filthy with them about ruining the Bachelorette - hey, leave me alone, I don't watch much TV but when it do, it's the trashy stuff ).

So the men being questioned were definitely known to be in the same areas as Karlie and Khandalyce when they were travelling. The more information that is released, the more I'm sure it's not going to be long at all before an arrest is made.

 

[AtaraMalka]

I think the Milat blame happens not necessarily to point at Ivan, but at other family members who still live in the area. It's easily done because there are so many Milat siblings/family members & there have always been those who believe that Ivan didn't act alone (former Law Society President John Marsden was one of those people & there was reference to it in the judge's summing up at his trial as well) - & then there's the actions of his nephew in 2010. I live nearby & honestly, anytime something like this happens in an area associated with the Milat's the whispers start immediately - not about Ivan, but his brothers & nephews.



Edit : This link (courtesy of Ausgirl) discusses some of the family accomplice theories (not that I think this has anything to do with the Milats, it just helps explain why it's so easy to point the finger at them)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/stalked-by-uncertainty/2005/07/20/1121539033488.html

Thanks so much for that info. I had heard about the nephew and his friend, but not others. Interesting reading.

 

[Kyja]

I don't think who ever did this kept Khandalyce, this is purely based off the fact the clothing found with her remains was what she was last seen wearing, the little pink dress. The shirt she is wearing in the picture of her with the quilt and rubix cube when she's younger also looks to match the baby bonds boxer shorts found in the suitcase :-(

 

[Panda]

I agree, it could definitely be the case since he was seen on two different dates. But why would he have the suitcase with him in town both times? If he wanted to move it closer to the road he wouldn't take it into town again, IMO.

I think too much emphasis is being placed on this "suitcase" man. That general area in SA is notorious for itinerant workers, as it is fruit picking season all year round. Apart from which, according to the eye witness accounts, the suitcase was a completely different colour. If it was the case as has been suggested by some that he wanted to leave it somewhere to be found - why not leave it somewhere more obvious where it would be found straight away and not behind some bushes or wherever it was allegedly first placed, and phone the police anonymously? It would be good if he could be located to solve the mystery though.

 

[sunnybree]

I agree that this could be the work of a serial killer, especially if the killer was relatively unknown to Karlie (ie she met him during her travels).

Oh, I really hope not. Look at previous cases--it is so much more difficult for the police to find the perpetrator if the victims were chosen at random. But I too have wondered about this. Karlie and her daughter were vulnerable to anyone seeking to do harm. At least the police seem to have really been able to focus the investigation after identifying Karlie and Khandalyce.

But what do I know. I was very sure that this would turn out to be a crime perpetrated by an abusive parent/step-parent (not to mention that I thought the idea of the little girl's mother being an unidentified murder victim as too far-fetched!), but it looks like something different now. Although I suppose that it is still quite possible that both were murdered in the same incident by a boyfriend or partner that Karlie had at the time. Another option I was thinking of, based on police statements, that this was a crime committed by a group of people (there's been a few of those over the years) and that some of those people might be started to point fingers. The police indicate the belief that multiple people are involved, either with the murder itself or after the fact.

 

[fruity]

I truly can not see any likeness at all between either picture of Karlie and the facial reconstruction. None. I realise other people can, and I know it's not meant to be seen as a photograph. But the only thing I can see in terms of similarity is that they're both female. Everything else - eye shape, cheekbones, jaw shape, everything ... it's all off IMO.

It was all over the news when it was released - if anyone who knew her had seen anything in it that reminded them of Karlie they would have called in. That speaks for itself. But maybe nobody who knew her saw it? I find that hard to believe, tbh. It was very widely distributed.

Having said that, not many facial reconstructions from skeletons hit the mark (that I've seen anyway - I would love to see some examples that prove me wrong). So many things about a face - eyebrows, eyelid shape, lip structure etc, are what make our face distinctive. When those things have to be imagined of course it is going to be hard to get everything right.

 

[fruity]

I think too much emphasis is being placed on this "suitcase" man. That general area in SA is notorious for itinerant workers, as it is fruit picking season all year round. Apart from which, according to the eye witness accounts, the suitcase was a completely different colour. [/b ]If it was the case as has been suggested by some that he wanted to leave it somewhere to be found - why not leave it somewhere more obvious where it would be found straight away and not behind some bushes or wherever it was allegedly first placed, and phone the police anonymously? It would be good if he could be located to solve the mystery though.

BBM

According to the dash cam videos, it was exactly as they described.

Editing to add link.

Suitcase man was first seen in March holding a dark suitcase.

Dashcam from May showing a faded black suitcase:
http://www.news.com.au/national/sou.../story-fnii5yv4-1227552640937?from=public_rss

Suitcase in July is extremely faded when it is officially discovered.

Police release the image of the dummy wearing the tutu and the black suitcase - we were all confused because of the colour. It turns out, it probably just faded a lot in the sun.

 

[AtaraMalka]

Karlie & Khandalyce TIMELINE (so far)

1988
• Karlie DOB

2006
• Khandalyce DOB

2006 - 2008
• Left Alice Springs to travel and work, no confirmed date, where were they that nobody is really sure?

November 8, 2008
• Pulled over by police on Sturt Highway (Coober Pedy)
• Seen by a friend and photographed in Marion Shopping Centre, Adelaide.

December 2008
• Seen in the ACT at a shopping center (Unconfirmed)

September 4, 2009
• Mother files missing persons report then withdraws it on September 10

August 2010
• Karlie's remains found

July 15, 2015
• Khandalyce's remains found

October 8, 2015
• Call to CrimeStoppers identifying clothes

October 21, 2015
• Karlie and Khandalyce identified as Belanglo & Wynarka Angels

SOURCES:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-21/timeline-karlie-jade-pearce-stevensons-mother/6874506
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-21/breakthrough-announced-in-wynarka-and-belanglo-cases/6872550
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-23/police-search-homes-in-sa-canberra-mother-daughter/6879814

Note: The details of their movements remain vague, especially when they are actually believed to have left Alice Springs and where they travelled.

If anyone can add to this that would be great, as the timeline still has some major holes in it....

So they were in Coober Pedy and Adelaide on the same day? Isn't that a very long distance? Yes, just looked it up - nearly a nine-hour drive. Probably took much longer with a 2-year old in tow, with more frequent stops and more of a tendency to drive on the careful side.

Were they driving from A to CP or CO to A? What prompted them to travel such a long distance in one day? Why does Karlie look so unwell / unhappy in the photo?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

No ... Pulled over on Nov 8, in Adelaide in Nov, unsure of date .. Going back to edit.

 

[AtaraMalka]

( From Germany your English is now very good and I love your posts. You know you are an honoury Aussie now)

:grouphug::grouphug:
:grouphug::grouphug:

:blowkiss:

Yes, FromGermany always reads everything with the greatest of care and notices things the rest of us native speakers sometimes don't pick up on!

 

[AtaraMalka]

No ... Pulled over on Nov 8, in Adelaide in Nov, unsure of date .. Going back to edit.

OK thanks~!

 

[AtaraMalka]

“Karlie’s mum had reported them missing on September, 4, 2009, and it is understood she withdrew the report on 9 October 2009 after she was reassured Karlie was safe and well, but did not want family contact at that time,” he said.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/10/21/girl-suitcase-was-daughter-woman-found-belanglo-forest

When Karlie's mother announced her missing, she was missing since 2008. I thought, Karlie then (2008) had left her home with her 2yo girl. Seemingly it was much earlier. OMG
2yo would have been young enough to have a child traveling with mum.

I just can't get my head around this timeline. So the mother filed the missing person's report an entire nine months (approx.) after Karlie was killed? What on earth was going on during those months?

 

[antechinusRAWR]

I'm thinking that pinpointing ages of children is much more difficult, there can be such enormous variations in size and body type at any given age.

I was studying forensic anthropology before I had my kids, I didn't get anywhere close to finishing my degree, but I have a little (potentially out of date) knowledge & as far as I'm aware this is absolutely correct.

My understanding is that children's bones tend to be more diffcult generally when assessed for identification purposes because they haven't yet developed the sexual dimorphism seen in teens/adults & because growth in very young children particularly can vary greatly (if you're in NSW just look at the "normal" milestone range in your baby's Blue Book & you'll get an idea).

It's also a little more difficult in Australia particularly because we don't have a national resource like the Smithsonian's collection to gather the measurements used to develop the statistics/formulae for assessing age & sex. I believe they're working on an Australia-specific set of measurements but so far we've always had to rely on Krogman & Iscan's work which is all based on the research done so far in the U.S. Those measurements will always be problematic here because we don't have the same mix of ethnicities or environmental conditions & when a few millimetres can add years to an age estimate you can see the potential for error.




Re similar/nearby cases, there's also Kathleen Harris, who was 15 years old when she went missing from Huskisson near Jervis Bay (not far from Gerroa where Rachelle was found & also about 45 mins from Belanglo). A local ex-member of the Rebels OMC is the only poi ever named in Kathleen's case. As well as starting rumours about the Milats, the poi in Rachelle's case started rumours that the Rebels were to blame for Rachelle's murder, so there's that teensy extra "link".Other than age, proximity & decade though, there really aren't any links.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I just can't get my head around this timeline. So the mother filed the missing person's report an entire nine months (approx.) after Karlie was killed? What on earth was going on during those months?

I can't get my head around the fact that we aren't even sure when she left Alice Springs! Was she in Darwin sometime as stated or not? Why didn't she have family contact after 2006? Was she so transient her family and friends lost track of her completely?

 

[Eloise]

I truly can not see any likeness at all between either picture of Karlie and the facial reconstruction. None. I realise other people can, and I know it's not meant to be seen as a photograph. But the only thing I can see in terms of similarity is that they're both female. Everything else - eye shape, cheekbones, jaw shape, everything ... it's all off IMO.

It was all over the news when it was released - if anyone who knew her had seen anything in it that reminded them of Karlie they would have called in. That speaks for itself. But maybe nobody who knew her saw it? I find that hard to believe, tbh. It was very widely distributed.

Having said that, not many facial reconstructions from skeletons hit the mark (that I've seen anyway - I would love to see some examples that prove me wrong). So many things about a face - eyebrows, eyelid shape, lip structure etc, are what make our face distinctive. When those things have to be imagined of course it is going to be hard to get everything right.

Little Bella ('baby doe') Bond from Boston. Her thread is in this forum - remarkably accurate reconstruction and another sad case of a child's life cut tragically short albeit in different circumstances to Khandalyce.

 

[Kouriouskell]

POLICE have released dash cam video showing the suitcase at the centre of the Wynarka murder investigation.
The release of the vision comes as detectives continue to investigate the discovery of a young girl’s remains found dumped with the suitcase alongside the Karoonda Highway in July.
The footage shows the suitcase sitting in dirt just off the bitumen of the highway.
In some of the vision, it is clear the suitcase has been moved.
Following the discovery, police said the suitcase had been looked through and moved on occasions before the girl’s remains were discovered and police notified.

so if the suitcase had been moved on occasions and looked through,,, where are these people ? have they came forward and told police this ???

 

[Amee]

ALEX MANN, REPORTER: Until 2008, Karlie Pearce-Stevenson and her two-year-old daughter Khandalyce lived in the Central Australian town of Alice Springs. Karlie was born here. She went to Alice Springs high school and in the year before she left town, played in a local netball team.

DES BRAY, MAJOR CRIME, SA POLICE: During 2008, Karlie and Khandalyce moved away from their family and started to travel and over time contact with the family became less for reasons that are not yet apparent to us.

ALEX MANN: When Karlie reached Adelaide, she met with a friend at the Marion shopping centre in the city's south-west where photos were taken. Seven years later, this image would provide a vital clue.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4337193.htm

2007 played in a local netball team

 

[fruity]

Little Bella ('baby doe') Bond from Boston. Her thread is in this forum - remarkably accurate reconstruction and another sad case of a child's life cut tragically short albeit in different circumstances to Khandalyce.

Bella was not reconstructed from a skeleton.