AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce (Wynarka) and mum Karlie Pearce-Stevenson (Belanglo) #2

[Theodora]

Very intriguing that the Police have issue a statement hoping to stop the media speculating about a serial killer.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-26/no-evidence-to-support-serial-killer-theory-police-say/6884370

"SA Police have released a statement in relation to the claims."There is no evidence to prove or disprove those responsible have committed any other murders," the statement read."

The police would seek to silence such speculation. Evidence of past crimes is not admissible in a criminal trial except after conviction when determining the sentence.

 

[JaneSA]

Does it actually make a difference what payments Karlie was getting from the government? How she was handling her tax affairs and her money?

I don't think it does.

Either she was doing everything 'under the table', or she wasn't. Either way it took years for her identity to be matched to her body. If she was truly 'off the grid', it proves it can be done. If was doing everything 'by the books' it shows that you might still be untrackable years after your untimely death, regardless of being on every relevant government database.

I don't see the relevance. Please tell me why it matters.

I think it only matters because so far the police have not been able to trace her movements by using her bank account transactions.
If she had a bank account then details of when and where she accessed it would provide information on her movements.

In Australia it is virtually impossible to have a bank account in a false name. We have a 100 point check system (came in in 1991) that requires strict primary identification documents including a birth certificate to open a bank account.

Also, with the crackdown on casual workers, fruit-growers and others who hire transient labour must provide complete details of any workers.
It's really rare that anyone gets paid in cash as the authorities see this as a red flag to investigate the employer.
Nobody who wants to keep their business pays workers in cash in Australia as it's just not worth the hassle of an investigation.

 

[JaneSA]

The police would seek to silence such speculation. Evidence of past crimes is not admissible in a criminal trial except after conviction when determining the sentence.

That could be the reason.

But isn't it interesting how the one statement "There is no evidence to prove or disprove those responsible have committed any other murders" has been taken in completely opposite ways by ABC and News Corp.

ABC read it as meaning there is no evidence to suggest a serial killer.
News Corp read it as meaning it could be a serial killer.

I suppose the relevant issue is that the police issued the statement IN RESPONSE to the serial killer speculation.
IMO that means they were trying to say that they don't think a serial killer is likely.

Personally, I always give the ABC more credit for accurate journalism than News Corp

 

[crabstick]

Judging by Makaras images posted last night about the rock markers found either side the suitcase by about 100 metres, there is a reason someone marked the position of the suitcase.
The bottom rocks are from a dismantled building. The top rock is a surface stone. Had someone stopped because they felt the rocks made a useful marker? The rocks look like psycho behaviour.
Or were they playing a game police would never find them in another state, not knowing they were going to prison?
Had they been past this pile of rocks many times before?
They either wanted to keep track of the case while traversing the nation, or they had gone into town and coming back to pick the suitcase up so they weren't driving around Adelaide with skeletons in the boot. Not to mention if someone opened the boot sighting the suitcase.
The suitcase location was an hour out of Adelaide.

Image: Makara - Streetview?

 

[JaneSA]

The small stone piles are found everywhere along Australian highways.
The are used to make points where tracks intersect.
When hundreds of kilometres of the roadside all looks much the same, people erect these stone piles to mark the point where a crossing or access track is. That way it is easy to identify.
That particular rock pile marks where the access track is that leads south over the railway line.

 

[Theodora]

Yes, activity in her bank accounts (especially withdrawals) is relevant. Presumably she had a bank account that she used and wasn't operating entirely in cash? I don't think whether she was on welfare or not is.

EDIT: JaneSA, I hadn't read your post just above when I wrote this but you might have been the person who posted about rural workers a day or two ago?

There was a post a day or so ago that said Karlie must have had a bank account to get paid for casual work due to ATO crackdown on tax avoidance by rural workers. I don't believe that is correct. Many waiters, shop assistants, etc are paid cash in hand.

Similarly you are not required to get tax file numbers or pay into a bank account for people who work for you as casual contractors, such as occasional handyman services. GST is only payable for services, and a tax invoice required, when a service provider earns a certain amount per year for his or her services, I think $75,000.

An employer could face fines for employing someone without getting them to sign necessary ATO forms but the ATO does not have endless resources to go around checking Australia wide other than on a random selection basis or as a result of a tip.

Gino and Mark Stocco, the father and son who are "on the run" in NSW at present, apparently lived by working in rural areas and are said to have lived "off the grid" for 8 years. This Daily Telegraph story describes living off the grid as living with "no phones, licences, bank accounts or friends".
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/stank-lik...for-gino-and-mark-stocco-20151018-gkc2i2.html

 

[HavenWood]

I realise that it must be a different person ... but a Karlie Jade Stevenson (in SA) had an ABN that was created 01/01/11 ... but it's for a sole trader business called KP Exploration Drilling. Wouldn't have picked her in that type of industry ... so must be a different girl.

 

[crabstick]

To be honest with you, I see cash paid quite a bit. I don't think there is any law that says you cant be paid in cash. Some people are still given cash as wages. Its the group certificate at the end that matters. While the ATO waves the banner of integrity, any business paying employees in cash without a group certificate is paying essentially 50% tax. Its when the business receives income in cash and 'doesn't declare that tax' that it rips the ATO off. So cash payments happen, and sometimes the pay is a lot lot less than on the books. If Karlie was earning less than $18000, she is better off on the books because she pays no income tax, and receives benefits.

The fact that Karlies mum put in a missing persons report meant Karies mum was concerned for Karlies welfare. The fact police couldnt find or didnt check bank accounts for transactions may mean Karlie didnt want to be found for other reasons. How was Karlie eating?
Not to mention Karlies ex-boyfirend slit his wifes throat.

I was paid in cash money for 12 months each week, but I still had to do a tax return reporting my earnings.

It's really rare that anyone gets paid in cash as the authorities see this as a red flag to investigate the employer.
Nobody who wants to keep their business pays workers in cash in Australia as it's just not worth the hassle of an investigation.

 

[JaneSA]

EDIT: JaneSA, I hadn't read your post just above when I wrote this but you might have been the person who posted about rural workers a day or two ago?

There was a post a day or so ago that said Karlie must have had a bank account to get paid for casual work due to ATO crackdown on tax avoidance by rural workers. I don't believe that is correct. Many waiters, shop assistants, etc are paid cash in hand.

Similarly you are not required to get tax file numbers or pay into a bank account for people who work for you as casual contractors, such as occasional handyman services. GST is only payable for services, and a tax invoice required, when a service provider earns a certain amount per year for his or her services, I think $75,000.

An employer could face fines for employing someone without getting them to sign necessary ATO forms but the ATO does not have endless resources to go around checking Australia wide other than on a random selection basis or as a result of a tip.

Gino and Mark Stocco, the father and son who are "on the run" in NSW at present, apparently lived by working in rural areas and are said to have lived "off the grid" for 8 years. This Daily Telegraph story describes living off the grid as living with "no phones, licences, bank accounts or friends".
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/stank-lik...for-gino-and-mark-stocco-20151018-gkc2i2.html

A member of my family operates a labour contractor business for vineyards - that means they gather a team of workers and supply labour to vineyards for times when many hands are needs for a few weeks, such as pruning and picking.

No casual worker can begin work without a Tax File Number, not even for an hour. It's illegal.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to find cash-in-hand work that did not require ID, but I find it highly unlikely.

But in any case, if we assume that Karlie drove around seeking employment with someone who would pay her in cash and not require her TFN, we have to ask why she would be doing that.

 

[JaneSA]

Also, consider the logistics of paying your fruit pickers in cash.
Firstly you have to make arrangements the previous day if you want to withdrawn over $5k in cash at a country bank (well you do here in SA anyway) as they don't keep huge sums these days.
Then you have to drive a long way to the bank, collect the money (having worked out which denominations you need to make up all the pay packets), make up each pay packet, drive back to the property and pay the workers.
It's ridiculous not to simply pay by electronic transfer.
I'd be genuinely surprised to find any legitimate operator paying their workers in cash in the 21st century.

 

[crabstick]

Heres your TFN 1234567 Oh, you want an ABN? 1414352567. Pickers are gone before the employer gets them although most employers dont know its on the employer to validate ABNs online before paying.
It still happens. WA had a massive bust on strawberry pickers employing overseas non visa workers living in a factory
If workers are on ABN numbers, there is no law that says you cant pay in cash like a deli takes cash. Technically, your a business.

Unless the ATO catches them on the ground paying cash, how do they know? They aint going to get them. But I diverse...

Someone might want cash payment if they were on social security benefits? Do a bit of gardening? If you earn less than $18000, you are doing yourself a disservice not declaring your income. You dont pay any income tax.
If the government puts GST up to 15% you will be ripping yourself off not declaring earnings up to about $35000. if you are a picker contractor on an ABN I doubt you would pay tax up to about $35000. There is no bus service and you cart your own tools. Car, fuel, phone, insurance, tools clothes, washing. Non principle place of residence accommodation.
Not much different to a shearer. If you are a backpacker on working visa you pay full tax until you leave.

A member of my family operates a labour contractor business for vineyards - that means they gather a team of workers and supply labour to vineyards for times when many hands are needs for a few weeks, such as pruning and picking.

No casual worker can begin work without a Tax File Number, not even for an hour. It's illegal.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to find cash-in-hand work that did not require ID, but I find it highly unlikely.

But in any case, if we assume that Karlie drove around seeking employment with someone who would pay her in cash and not require her TFN, we have to ask why she would be doing that.

 

[JaneSA]

FYI, this is the ATO operation I am talking about that makes anyone hiring labourers for fruit harvesting very, very careful these days:

"ATO to step up operations against complex rackets such as those run by some labour hire firms supplying undocumented foreign nationals as harvesters for Australia's fruit-growing regions"

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nat...ax-millions-20140404-364lc.html#ixzz3pdQh4NB0
Follow us: @canberratimes on Twitter | CanberraTimes on Facebook

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I get paid in cash sometimes and I'm not on any kind of social security, I also have an ABN and get paid via invoice to that sometimes. This is simply because I'm a sole trader. There is no problem with either of those ways of being paid, yes you could avoid tax when you get paid in cash, but that's about all.

 

[Theodora]

A member of my family operates a labour contractor business for vineyards - that means they gather a team of workers and supply labour to vineyards for times when many hands are needs for a few weeks, such as pruning and picking.

No casual worker can begin work without a Tax File Number, not even for an hour. It's illegal.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to find cash-in-hand work that did not require ID, but I find it highly unlikely.

But in any case, if we assume that Karlie drove around seeking employment with someone who would pay her in cash and not require her TFN, we have to ask why she would be doing that.

It isn't illegal to hire someone who does not give a tax file number but, if they don't provide it, you are required to deduct the highest marginal rate of tax from their pay. Giving a tax file number ensures you don't pay (much) more than the rate that applies to your total income for that financial year.
https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Abor...ax-basics---businesses/If-you-have-employees/

That said, it is quite common for people in casual jobs in service industries to be paid "cash in hand" and neither they nor their employer is caught out by the ATO. The ATO doesn't have the resources to monitor the entire Australian workforce.

It's true that it is virtually impossible to open a bank account without providing genuine details including a tax file number. If a casual employee paid cash in hand then deposited that money in his or her bank account then the employee would be likely to be discovered if no tax was paid. I lodged my tax return online last year and discovered that the ATO had full details of my bank accounts and exactly how much interest I had earned on deposits, so I didn't have to provide that information myself.

 

[JaneSA]

Yep, some people do want a bit of cash because they are receiving a govt benefit - exactly.
And that's where the Centerlink crackdown comes in too.
Between the ATO and Centerlink it would be an insane employer who didn't get their paperwork straight before employing someone.

But it's a moot point really because, while she may possibly have got a few days work without a TFN declaration working for a dodgy employer, that could not possibly be sustainable over a long period.
And again, if she was only seeking work that she could do without a TFN we have to ask why.

https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Abor...ax-basics---businesses/If-you-have-employees/

 

[JaneSA]

But Theodora - that's exactly my point - the authorities DO check the workers.
In Australia it has become a very common practice.
It's been all over the news and fruit growers are really cautious about it.
After discussing the weather, it's the second biggest topic of conversation among growers.

Eg:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-24/illegal-citrus-workers-2410/5838264
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-13/nrn-illegal-workers/4751326
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-12/shonky-horticulture-operator-crackdown-bundaberg/6089088

 

[Theodora]

Hi JaneSA I know that the ATO and other authorities do check workers and employers but many many small businesses like cafes are not checked. Likewise many rural businesses (particularly small farms) hire people without formality for a day or two or longer. The Stocco father and son are recent cases in point - they kept themselves on such work "off the grid" for the last 8 years.

It is not at all uncommon for people like university students to do casual work in service industry jobs for small cash businesses (eg cafes) and neither they nor the business owner records that payment. Large organisations, including your relative's labour hire business, would comply with the letter of the law because the chances of being audited and caught out are much higher.

If Karlie in fact did not work "on the ATO grid", I wouldn't assume anything else adverse about her just based on that fact.

 

[JaneSA]

I get paid in cash sometimes and I'm not on any kind of social security, I also have an ABN and get paid via invoice to that sometimes. This is simply because I'm a sole trader. There is no problem with either of those ways of being paid, yes you could avoid tax when you get paid in cash, but that's about all.

Me too, but as you said, like me you are a sole trader.
I am not saying there is anything specifically wrong with paying in cash.
However, when you have a team of workers to pay (as opposed to one person in your case or mine) it's a huge task to make up pay packets in cash.

It's just the logistics of paying workers in cash, in a rural area with no easy bank access.

I remember years ago (in the 80s) being paid in cash for pub work.
I remember that the manager and another person spent a whole afternoon, every week, making up the pay packets for about 25 workers.
Why would anyone do that these days if they could use EFT?

 

[JaneSA]

It is not at all uncommon for people like university students to do casual work in service industry jobs for small cash businesses (eg cafes) and neither they nor the business owner records that payment. Large organisations, including your relative's labour hire business, would comply with the letter of the law because the chances of being audited and caught out are much higher.

If Karlie in fact did not work "on the ATO grid", I wouldn't assume anything else adverse about her just based on that fact.

I agree - nothing else should be assumed about her just because she has no bank records.
I think it may be why the police seem to think she may have died very soon after leaving Alice Springs and before she found any work.

 

[Theodora]

I agree - nothing else should be assumed about her just because she has no bank records.
I think it may be why the police seem to think she may have died very soon after leaving Alice Springs and before she found any work.

On a different issue, is anyone aware of any source other than the Weekend Australia that has said that Karlie left Alice Springs as early as 2006 while Khandalyce was an "infant"? I previously assumed that the photo of Khandalyce at Marion shopping centre in early November 2008 was taken not that long after they left Alice Springs but the Weekend Australian said 2006.