AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce (Wynarka) and mum Karlie Pearce-Stevenson (Belanglo) #7

[Bohemian]

I just had a random scenario go through my head. Please note, the scenario below is only musings and not based on any specific evidence or information.

What if 2008 Hazel and Daniel were in a relationship, happily travelling round Australia, when they had the car accident.

When Hazel is recovering in rehab, Daniel starts a relationship with Karlie. He then regrets it, has an argument with her (or whatever) [SBM]. Consequently, Khandalyce is subsequently killed as well.

Hazel and Daniel get back together a few months after Karlie and Khandalyce's death. [SBM] are involved in covering up, either knowingly or unknowingly. During this time, the fraud is carried out (I'm thinking that Hazel is privy to Karlie and Khandalyce's deaths).

In 2011, Hazel and Daniel have to leave in a "hurry" perhaps [SBM].

In 2012 the police find Karlie's bank card in Daniel's possession. Some sort of involvement [SBM] causes Hazel and Daniel's relationship to end.

Roll around to 2015 - Hazel starts a relationship with someone new. As Khandalyce's remains are still around, either Hazel gets rid of them off the cuff, or the new person she is in a relationship finds them and gets rid of them.

Just some thoughts.

Yup, yup, yup.

Or the suitcase (with Khandalyce's remains) were left in a property somewhere by someone and disposed of when discovered by a subsequent tenant, cleaner, or squatter not wanting involvement/contact with SAPOL for reasons of their own.

Or person dumping suitcase owed someone a favour/was coerced/paid/related/friend.

Any number of possibilities.

<modsnip>

 

[Bohemian]

They said holess were left in the walls, drug paraphernalia and junk were strewn about the property.

Neighbours told 7 News: “There was a lot of yelling and from what she’d been through I think she was probably a bit psychologically messed up.”

Another neighbour said Mr Holdom was friendly and they had not suspected anything.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/sa/a/2996...arlie-pearce-stevenson-and-khandalyce-murder/

Doesn't sound like a very pretty picture; does it Amee? Thanks for the link x

 

[JaneSA]

HP has a child aged (my guess) about 2 with her current partner, Mr Egg-thrower.
Is it reasonable, therefore, to assume that they have been together at least 3 years?
If so, she would have been with Mr Egg-thrower in at least late 2012.
So DH has been out of her life, as a partner anyway, at lest that long.

 

[Puggle]

HP has a child aged (my guess) about 2 with her current partner, Mr Egg-thrower.
Is it reasonable, therefore, to assume that they have been together at least 3 years?
If so, she would have been with Mr Egg-thrower in at least late 2012.
So DH has been out of her life, as a partner anyway, at lest that long.

And then DH started relationship with 16 year old ? ....2013 traffic stop.

 

[JaneSA]

And then DH started relationship with 16 year old ? ....2013 traffic stop.

Well, yes
Both with different partners by 2012/2013

 

[Becsworld1974]

I just had a random scenario go through my head. Please note, the scenario below is only musings and not based on any specific evidence or information.

What if 2008 Hazel and Daniel were in a relationship, happily travelling round Australia, when they had the car accident.

When Hazel is recovering in rehab, Daniel starts a relationship with Karlie. He then regrets it, has an argument with her (or whatever) and ends up killing her. Consequently, Khandalyce is subsequently killed as well.

Hazel and Daniel get back together a few months after Karlie and Khandalyce's death. Family members are involved in covering up, either knowingly or unknowingly. During this time, the fraud is carried out (I'm thinking that Hazel is privy to Karlie and Khandalyce's deaths).

In 2011, Hazel and Daniel have to leave in a "hurry" perhaps because Daniel is wanted by the police for something.

In 2012 the police find Karlie's bank card in Daniel's possession. Some sort of involvement with the police causes Hazel and Daniel's relationship to end.

Roll around to 2015 - Hazel starts a relationship with someone new. As Khandalyce's remains are still around, either Hazel gets rid of them off the cuff, or the new person she is in a relationship finds them and gets rid of them.

Just some thoughts.

I buy along with most of that.... one thing I may add to that, What if Karlie is on the lease for that property? it is a bit random but 2011 was the year Centrelink uncovered an issue and stopped her payments. I know they could have stopped it for any reason.

 

[Bohemian]

And then DH started relationship with 16 year old ? ....2013 traffic stop.

DJH engaged to 16 year old in July 2012.

'Selfies, roses and mobile phones under his car seat: Teen fiancée of man accused of murdering Karlie Pearce-Stevenson kept an online diary of their relationship'
By Daniel Piotrowski
for Daily Mail Australia
06:09 02 Nov 2015
(updated 09:14 02 Nov 2015)

'Toni Blundell, from Charnwood, Canberra, was just 16 when she announced she was engaged with Mr Holdom on Facebook in July 2012. Police are reportedly treating her as a witness, but not a suspect, in their investigation.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Stevenson-kept-online-diary-relationship.html

 

[Freddo Frog]

Was Daniel Holdom's sister providing child care when Karlie was away on her road trips? Is it possible that she is the second woman that the police talk about?

Mere speculation on my part, and MOO, but, she had the birth certificate and didn't reveal that information voluntarily. It was found during the police search. Surely, it didn't just slip her mind.

IF, as speculated, Holdom's sister was looking after Khandalyce, could a birth certificate be used to gain medical treatment in lieu of a Medicare card because Karlie was not around at the time?

I don't think the sister is involved and was probably just doing a favour for her brother.

 

[Bohemian]

I buy along with most of that.... one thing I may add to that, What if Karlie is on the lease for that property? it is a bit random but 2011 was the year Centrelink uncovered an issue and stopped her payments. I know they could have stopped it for any reason.

Doubt it. Given current circumstances/alleged history of fraud, and the fact HP was given housing in Adelaide due to her need for treatment/rehabilitation and her disability soon after the Marla accident, I would say that both Karlie and DJH wouldn't have been on the lease (less rent to pay as it is a set proportion of tenant(s)' income).

I think this is one of the reasons Karlie's mail was going to GM's, along with the fact she lived a transient lifestyle.

DJH probably had an alternative address, too, unless he received Carers' Payment; but I don't think so. I think this is why people want us to believe their relationship broke up after the Marla accident and the reason for multiple aliases and ABNs (including addresses).

Centrelink interview would have been OK as an impostor but if you fraudulently sign a form, Federal penalties are steep and form states that prominently where you sign. I think impostor baulked at this so benefits stopped.

I also think because last link with family was broken when GM and Mum had passed and Karlie and Khandalyce didn't show, no one else at GM's/'Karlie's' address could, or was willing, to accept mail and forward it on to 'Karlie'.

So, I reckon someone put in a Redirection Order with Australia Post; their first mistake. Information about those orders, along with other data, were used to catch Centrelink fraudsters, so I've been told; especially if you gave your Centrelink Reference Number to get one free redirection and/or cheap renewals.

 

[Bundy]

There is a chance HP knew very little, a chance that DH conned her into updating/changing details at the bank and centrelink, she may have thought she was doing a favour for Karlie, she could have even got a text from the other woman posing as Karlie.... just a thought.

 

[Suziek]

About a year after admitting to that little bit of green stuff and her 25 year old carer to the rest. :thinking:

that whole situation is odd...did grandma not try to get in touch to tell Karlie she had mail or did she never wonder why Karlie never called to see if she had any

 

[Walk A Mile]

Centrelink interview would have been OK as an impostor but if you fraudulently sign a form, Federal penalties are steep and form states that prominently where you sign. I think impostor baulked at this so benefits stopped.

I don't understand what this means. Providing false or misleading information to Centrelink is an offence, and I reckon that would cover showing up to a meeting and saying "I'm Karlie Jade Pearce Stevenson, I'm the mother of Khandalyse Kiara Pearce, and these are my daughter's identity documents".

 

[symbah]

Yes, I'll admit my words could be read that way, symbah, but by saying he doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed, I meant in relation to HP's machinations. I didn't mean to imply he lacks intelligence or IQ; maybe just emotional intelligence (ie EQ). There's a difference to me. You can be the smartest person around and still have little insight into others' actions, your reactions and be manipulated to their ends.

Also, it was in relation to him having little control over his emotions and resorting to immature behaviour such as swearing at and blaming media for his actions and a number of egg-throwing incidents, etc.

I could have explained my point better.

Its all fine Bohemian, speaking from personal experience, its easy to have one's point misconstrued ... I meant this, but it came out like that. It happens.

I'm not convinced though on the science of EQ/EI. In my humble opinion, I'm not convinced that Emotional Intelligence even exists, however, I do respect you're opinion on this subject.

Back on topic, I do find it interesting that for all the negative criticism HP's partner has gained for his actions displayed in front of the media - negative criticism has also been applied to HP for the cool & calm behaviour she has projected in front of the media, under what is an extremely serious investigation. Both negative projections it seems.

 

[Bohemian]

I don't understand what this means. Providing false or misleading information to Centrelink is an offence, and I reckon that would cover showing up to a meeting and saying "I'm Karlie Jade Pearce Stevenson, I'm the mother of Khandalyse Kiara Pearce, and these are my daughter's identity documents".

Sure, but the person who turned up to Centrelink may not have realised that until they were given forms to fill out and sign and saw those words in black and white.

We also don't know why that person turned up at Centrelink other than for an interview or with anyone's ID or if they left without completing the interview. You don't have to produce your own ID at Centrelink for an interview. Can't see why your child's would be needed at an interview either when they were already registered with Centrelink.

If you simply left the office without completing your business after an interview, they're not exactly going to chase you down the street, rather they'd flag it with their investigators. They', in turn, would be looking for a 'ghost' if Centrelink doesn't have any of your legitimate information other than blurry CCTV photographs of people who are probably well disguised anyway.

 

[Makara]

I don't understand what this means. Providing false or misleading information to Centrelink is an offence, and I reckon that would cover showing up to a meeting and saying "I'm Karlie Jade Pearce Stevenson, I'm the mother of Khandalyse Kiara Pearce, and these are my daughter's identity documents".

Exactly. Whether you sign a form or not, providing false or misleading information to steal the identity of another is an offence.

Key points noted from the police media conference 27 October 2015.
https://www.facebook.com/sapolicenews/videos/948059551938054/

• On 24 June 2010 a female in a wheelchair accompanied by a male person attended the Australian Central Credit Union in Elizabeth to update banking records and engage in conversations with the bank. Those people were in possession of identity documents and were able to convince the bank that in fact the female that was present was Karlie.

• In relation to the Centrelink and family benefit payments, on 15 December 2010 a female attended Centrelink at Salisbury and falsely represented that she was in fact Karlie and produced identity documents for herself and Khandalyce.

BBM: In each instance this woman is guilty of identity theft. She produced documents to that effect. The stealing of Karlie's identity then enabled this woman to commit fraud.

What is identity crime?
A set of standard definitions were developed by the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre's Proof of Identity Steering Committee for use by law enforcement throughout Australia (ACPR 2006:15):

• The term identity encompasses the identity of natural persons (living or deceased) and the identity of bodies corporate

• Identity fabrication to be used to describe the creation of a fictitious identity

• Identity manipulation to be used to describe the alteration of one's own identity

• Identity theft to be used to describe the theft or assumption of a pre-existing identity (or significant part thereof), with or without consent and whether, in the case of an individual, the person is living or deceased

• Identity crime to be used as a generic term to describe activities/offences in which a perpetrator uses a fabricated identity; a manipulated identity; or a stolen/assumed identity to facilitate the commission of a crime(s).

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/fraud/identity-crime#q2

 

[Bohemian]

Its all fine Bohemian, speaking from personal experience, its easy to have one's point misconstrued ... I meant this, but it came out like that. It happens.

I'm not convinced though on the science of EQ/EI. In my humble opinion, I'm not convinced that Emotional Intelligence even exists, however, I do respect you're opinion on this subject.

Back on topic, I do find it interesting that for all the negative criticism HP's partner has gained for his actions displayed in front of the media - negative criticism has also been applied to HP for the cool & calm behaviour she has projected in front of the media, under what is an extremely serious investigation. Both negative projections it seems.

We can agree to disagree on the whole EQ thing, symbah. I don't think it's hard science, per se, more psychology.

I don't think it's a cool, calm demeanour in reality. I think it's a mask and her carer is being manipulated into acting out. Just strikes me as the manipulator and the manipulated.

Yes, they are negative; projections or not. I'm sure that if someone else involved in this case could be discussed, there would be a lot worse directed his way.

More generally, it's only natural for people to have negative feelings toward anyone allegedly involved in, or being on the periphery of, brutal crimes; particularly in relation to children.

I am keeping an open mind about the guilt or innocence of anyone involved in this instance, despite my observations and personal feelings about them, as that's only just. I put those observations and feelings up to hear other poster's POV, like yours, and I'm grateful for them. They help me to gain insight and counter any negative projections I may make.

 

[Bohemian]

Exactly. Whether you sign a form or not, providing false or misleading information to steal the identity of another is an offence.

Key points noted from the police media conference 27 October 2015.
https://www.facebook.com/sapolicenews/videos/948059551938054/

• On 24 June 2010 a female in a wheelchair accompanied by a male person attended the Australian Central Credit Union in Elizabeth to update banking records and engage in conversations with the bank. Those people were in possession of identity documents and were able to convince the bank that in fact the female that was present was Karlie.

• In relation to the Centrelink and family benefit payments, on 15 December 2010 a female attended Centrelink at Salisbury and falsely represented that she was in fact Karlie and produced identity documents for herself and Khandalyce.

BBM: In each instance this woman is guilty of identity theft. She produced documents to that effect. The stealing of Karlie's identity then enabled this woman to commit fraud.

What is identity crime?
A set of standard definitions were developed by the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre's Proof of Identity Steering Committee for use by law enforcement throughout Australia (ACPR 2006:15):

• The term identity encompasses the identity of natural persons (living or deceased) and the identity of bodies corporate

• Identity fabrication to be used to describe the creation of a fictitious identity

• Identity manipulation to be used to describe the alteration of one's own identity

• Identity theft to be used to describe the theft or assumption of a pre-existing identity (or significant part thereof), with or without consent and whether, in the case of an individual, the person is living or deceased

• Identity crime to be used as a generic term to describe activities/offences in which a perpetrator uses a fabricated identity; a manipulated identity; or a stolen/assumed identity to facilitate the commission of a crime(s).

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/fraud/identity-crime#q2

Thanks for that info, Makara. I know it's a crime to impersonate someone else at Centrelink at an interview. I thought it would be a further crime to actually forge a signature on Centrelink documents in order to defraud them. I hadn't read that the person who impersonated Karlie at Centrelink had produced identity documents for Karlie and Khandalyce before now. Always happy to have misconceptions remedied or learn new information.

There is also Social Security Benefit Fraud, under the Social Security (Administration) Act 1999, Part 6--Offences, Division 2--Offences, that would apply:

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2013C00627/Html/Text#_Toc368999456

 

[Bohemian]

There is a chance HP knew very little, a chance that DH conned her into updating/changing details at the bank and centrelink, she may have thought she was doing a favour for Karlie, she could have even got a text from the other woman posing as Karlie.... just a thought.

I agree. As I've said before she could be completely innocent of any involvement in any crime; or not. It's not up to me to charge her with anything. That's the job of investigators if they have any evidence.

 

[Becsworld1974]

Doubt it. Given current circumstances/alleged history of fraud, and the fact HP was given housing in Adelaide due to her need for treatment/rehabilitation and her disability soon after the Marla accident, I would say that both Karlie and DJH wouldn't have been on the lease (less rent to pay as it is a set proportion of tenant(s)' income).

I think this is one of the reasons Karlie's mail was going to GM's, along with the fact she lived a transient lifestyle.

DJH probably had an alternative address, too, unless he received Carers' Payment; but I don't think so. I think this is why people want us to believe their relationship broke up after the Marla accident and the reason for multiple aliases and ABNs (including addresses).

Centrelink interview would have been OK as an impostor but if you fraudulently sign a form, Federal penalties are steep and form states that prominently where you sign. I think impostor baulked at this so benefits stopped.

I also think because last link with family was broken when GM and Mum had passed and Karlie and Khandalyce didn't show, no one else at GM's/'Karlie's' address could, or was willing, to accept mail and forward it on to 'Karlie'.

So, I reckon someone put in a Redirection Order with Australia Post; their first mistake. Information about those orders, along with other data, were used to catch Centrelink fraudsters, so I've been told; especially if you gave your Centrelink Reference Number to get one free redirection and/or cheap renewals.

I wasn't suggesting that DH and Karlie were on the lease together, maybe just Karlie... just a thought anyway and not a good one, HP would have had better housing being disabled, having a child and possibly a carer as well, So I retract.
I would think though that the impersonator would have updated addresses with both Centrelink and the bank (I think those visits were both in 2010 but the payments weren't cut off till mid/late 2011. It would be crazy to be at that level of fraud and having some random person collecting the mail...

"Centrelink interview would have been OK as an impostor but if you fraudulently sign a form, Federal penalties are steep and form states that prominently where you sign. I think impostor baulked at this so benefits stopped."

- I disagree with this, whoever impersonated Karlie at Centrelink was probably also getting some portion at least nearly $100,000, knew of her death and that of Khandle's. I don't think she had any concerns about fraudulently signing a form (By 2011 the fraud of Karlie's payments had been occurring for more two full years).

 

[Bohemian]

I wasn't suggesting that DH and Karlie were on the lease together, maybe just Karlie... just a thought anyway and not a good one, HP would have had better housing being disabled, having a child and possibly a carer as well, So I retract.
I would think though that the impersonator would have updated addresses with both Centrelink and the bank (I think those visits were both in 2010 but the payments weren't cut off till mid/late 2011. It would be crazy to be at that level of fraud and having some random person collecting the mail...

"Centrelink interview would have been OK as an impostor but if you fraudulently sign a form, Federal penalties are steep and form states that prominently where you sign. I think impostor baulked at this so benefits stopped."

- I disagree with this, whoever impersonated Karlie at Centrelink was probably also getting some portion at least nearly $100,000, knew of her death and that of Khandle's. I don't think she had any concerns about fraudulently signing a form (By 2011 the fraud of Karlie's payments had been occurring for more two full years).

I think they might have been trying to 'update details' at Centrelink in 2010 and that, plus other inconsistencies at the interview that we're not aware of, led to 'Karlie's' benefits being withdrawn in 2011. (I don't know actual dates of those two events). As for the mail, GM had been opening it up until her death prior to 2010 (? year back in this thread somewhere) and someone was impersonating Karlie to family and friends so maybe they had no need to change 'Karlie's' address until then.

On your second point, true; if it was the person who had been receiving part or all of Karlie's and Khandalyce's benefits and they knew of their deaths. I don't think it's clear if there were one or more women impersonating Karlie or if she/they knew about her and Khandalyce's fate.