Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #2

[Mrs G Norris]

I wonder if the statement from dying victim was about how Erin was acting around the meal .. perhaps eating something entirely different, or being very particular about plates.

God .. it really does seem deliberate. I don't think 'friends' would dare visit her even if there were no press, and are likely using that as an excuse .. I wouldn't even take a cup of tea with her, too risky!

 

[RickshawFan]

I swear earlier in this thread today I saw a media link saying EP was (in essence) MIA. However I just flicked back through the thread and can’t see anything.
Anybody know?
Innocent or guilty, I hope she is okay. Especially for her kids’ sake. It’d be gut wrenching to see your mum dragged over hot coals in the media.

That may have been when she went to Melbourne to "meet with her lawyers", who actually showed up at her home home to meet with her.

 

[SMK777]

I wouldn't even take a cup of tea with her, too risky!

I don’t think anyone would at this point.
And I really do think the dying person must have said something to the effect that, “this wasn’t an accident; she poisoned us.”
What else could have so alarmed the paramedic that he reported it to law enforcement?
MOO

 

[RickshawFan]

I agree and add that some of the known facts come directly from the statement EP sent to LE:

That she bought the mushrooms from a supermarket and an unidentified Asian market.

That she initially refused to speak with LE due to bad advice.

That she fed her children the Wellington after scraping the mushrooms off the meat.

That she herself became ill and was put on a saline drip and given medication to protect her liver.

That she disposed of a food dehydrator in a tip (garbage dump).

That she lied to LE about it.

We can accept or reject her story. For me those facts are suspicious. I’m open to changing my mind if new information is disclosed but until then EP’s own words IMO point to something amiss in this case.

What was the timing of throwing away the dehydrator versus being on the drip?

It's a problem for me that the presentation at the hospital sounds like it was self-reporting followed by "in an abundance of caution" on the part of the hospital.

 

[ch_13]

Also puzzling is that EP is a mushroom forager who owns a dehydrator yet she traveled to an Asian market to purchase “dried mushrooms.” Not dried shitakes or maitakes or porcinis, just generic mushrooms. What was the point?

My experience with the dried fungi selection at Asian stores is that you never just get a mix. They are always sold by vvarietal (e.g. enoki, shitaki, etc) because different mushrooms are used for different preparations.

And since these are cultivated crops, it's really hard to see how a death cap could wind up in the package.

 

[RickshawFan]

I was thinking that she could have taken laxatives to give herself diarrhoea but then this would show up in a blood test, which would be routine for someone turning up to the hospital with stomach pains and diarrhoea.
I'm completely bamboozled by this case.
IMO.

We don't know what blood tests show, so what they might show is not answerable at the moment. She coulda eaten a bunch of prunes? Fig Newtons? Something she's allergic to? Colonoscopies provide plenty of experience on how to end up with the runs lol. Easily accomplished.

Okay, okay...Dr. Google c/o NIH. You can detect some laxatives in urine tests, but not blood tests. Here's the method used to track laxative abuse in eating-disordered folks.

A screening method for establishing laxative abuse - PubMed

Abuse of laxatives, most of them belonging to the group of colonic stimulants or cathartics, can cause various disorders. Extensive diagnostic work can be avoided by early toxicological screening of the suspected patients with respect to laxatives. Because no screening method of this kind was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

British National Health:

Laxative Screen

www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk

Ooohhhh.... I found the motherlode. Factitious diarrhea:

Factitious diarrhea induced by stimulant laxatives: accuracy of diagnosis by a clinical reference laboratory using thin layer chromatography - PubMed

Considering the expected prevalence of surreptitious laxative abuse in patients with chronic idiopathic diarrhea (2.4%-25%, depending on the clinical setting), TLC of urine or stool for bisacodyl by this reference laboratory would often produce misleading results, and testing for senna would...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Abstract​

Background: Surreptitious ingestion of laxatives can lead to serious factitious diseases that are difficult to diagnose. Most cases involve ingestion of bisacodyl or senna. Thin layer chromatography (TLC) of urine or stool is the only commercially available test for these laxatives. Such testing is considered highly reliable, but its accuracy in clinical practice is unknown. Our aim was to evaluate the reliability of TLC laxative testing by a clinical reference laboratory in the United States.
Methods: Diarrhea was induced in healthy volunteers by ingestion of bisacodyl, senna, or a control laxative (n = 11 for each laxative group). Samples of urine and diarrheal stool were sent in blinded fashion to the clinical reference laboratory for bisacodyl and senna analysis.
Results: TLC testing for bisacodyl-induced diarrhea revealed a sensitivity of 73% and specificity of 91% when urine was tested and sensitivity and specificity of 91% and 96%, respectively, when stool was analyzed. When diarrhea was induced by senna, the TLC assay for senna failed to identify even a single urine or stool specimen as positive (zero% sensitivity).
Conclusions: Considering the expected prevalence of surreptitious laxative abuse in patients with chronic idiopathic diarrhea (2.4%-25%, depending on the clinical setting), TLC of urine or stool for bisacodyl by this reference laboratory would often produce misleading results, and testing for senna would have no clinical value. The major problems are false-positive tests for bisacodyl and false-negative tests for senna.

This means the senna test is null?

 

[RickshawFan]

BTW, in law there’s an exception to the hearsay rule called dying declaration. Most of you are probably already familiar with it. I’ve been thinking about the statement made to a paramedic by one of the relatives. There may also be others and of course one relative survived so he’ll give a witness statement at some point if not already.

If no evidence is found on the dehydrator and the elusive Asian market can’t be identified then the victims themselves may provide answers, either exculpatory or damming.

For the sake of the children I hope the case is resolved one way or another.

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/mushroom-poison-victims-final-words-to-paramedic/news-story/13ea59d2bcb3947bb5e9d2503819e8ba

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/mystery-hangs-over-mushrooms-used-in-deadly-meal/news-story/54301ef23cbf7769d3e812c1c74be12c

I strongly imagine the now-dead folks communicated with their (local) son about their experience at the lunch (whatever required mediating) and their symptoms, as well as the need to present to the hospital. Seniors very often call a local offspring when they have accidents, get ill, etc., and this was an event that had something to do with family relationships involving Simon. So, IMO they have to have called him. Perhaps he even took them? IMO there's no way they didn't give their son a heads up. It might even be in text. So, this would be dying declaration, too....

 

[SMK777]

I strongly imagine the now-dead folks communicated with their (local) son about their experience at the lunch (whatever required mediating) and their symptoms, as well as the need to present to the hospital. Seniors very often call a local offspring when they have accidents, get ill, etc., and this was an event that had something to do with family relationships involving Simon. So, IMO they have to have called him. Perhaps he even took them? IMO there's no way they didn't give their son a heads up. It might even be in text. So, this would be dying declaration, too....

And EP said Simon had accused her of poisoning them. So his ill parents likely put that idea in his mind. She said that’s what made her panic and dump the dehydrator.

 

[MsMarple]

What was the timing of throwing away the dehydrator versus being on the drip?

It's a problem for me that the presentation at the hospital sounds like it was self-reporting followed by "in an abundance of caution" on the part of the hospital.

It’s not really clear, just that she dumped it after SP’s comment while she was at the hospital with her children. Was it while she herself was a patient or was it after she was released? Who knows.

Victorian woman at centre of suspected mushroom poisoning says she also went to hospital after eating meal

Erin Patterson tells police she bought the fungi from a supermarket chain and an Asian grocery store

www.theguardian.com

 

[LadyL]

Mushroom Sellers in OZ. None at Farmers' Markets?

@mangoes999 Statement ^ may be totally correct. IDK.

But "The Agaricus bisporus mushroom accounts for over 90% of the mushrooms sold in Australia." * Not 100%.

From "OFFICIAL STATEMENT - Leongatha Wild Mushroom Poisoning...."We strongly urge people to only consume mushrooms sold at a trusted retailer, like a supermarket, green-grocer or quality farmers market." **

Mushrooms other than the agaricus bisporous (however grown***) are sold in OZ, per this industry assoc.

Seems open to interp. that some small vendors at farmers' markets or roadside stands MAY grow (or forage!!!) and
sell other types of mushrooms. Vendors may or may not be mushroom-knowledgeable.
Those sales may or may not be subject the same statutory or regulatory agency scrutiny as bigger commecial producers. IDK.

Not saying EP bought DC mushrooms at farmers' market; just saying it's possible she may have, imo.

___________________________________
* How mushrooms grow in Australia
Also: "The AMGA is a non-profit, member-based organisation, and has represented the interests of the mushroom industry for over 60 years."
** Wild Mushrooms - Australian Mushroom Growers
*** Hydroponics - Wikipedia

[bbm]

why wouldn't she just say that?

 

[Amalgam]

I don't think it's likely that the traces would remain, but she wouldn't know that for sure, would she?

Mushrooms like death caps release millions of microscopic spores, including after they’ve been harvested and during drying. The spores of individual species are quite distinctive under the microscope.

Unless Erin scrupulously cleaned every surface of the dehydrator, there is a decent chance that forensic scientists will find these spores.

 

[silvercrown]

EP’s mother, Dr Heather Scutter, was only 72 when she died. Unless she was battling a disease, or in an accident, IMO this is quite young to pass from natural causes.

 

[MadDoc]

I was at lunch today, ordered a side salad and told the waiter to hold the mushrooms. He rolled his eyes like he hasn't heard that 100 times already.

I work in a very "agricultural" area on the eastern outskirts of Melbourne and I have heard "on the grapevine" that sales of mushrooms are suffering and stores are having whole shelves of mushrooms untouched when other produce is sold out by the end of the day.

Echoes of the "needles in strawberries" crisis from a few years ago. A lot of strawberry farmers were hit hard by that.

The public is easily spooked, and react with (sometimes extreme) caution when there is any kind of poisoning in the news.

 

[LadyL]

EP’s mother, Dr Heather Scutter, was only 72 when she died. Unless she was battling a disease, or in an accident, IMO this is quite young to pass from natural causes.

yep ... similar age of the four victims IMO

 

[jjenny]

Mushrooms like death caps release millions of microscopic spores, including after they’ve been harvested and during drying. The spores of individual species are quite distinctive under the microscope.

Unless Erin scrupulously cleaned every surface of the dehydrator, there is a decent chance that forensic scientists will find these spores.

Let's hope so.

 

[Friday Fan]

Mushrooms like death caps release millions of microscopic spores, including after they’ve been harvested and during drying. The spores of individual species are quite distinctive under the microscope.

Unless Erin scrupulously cleaned every surface of the dehydrator, there is a decent chance that forensic scientists will find these spores.

Yep. Pretty hard to get rid of all of them.

 

[Amalgam]

Let's hope so.

I really hope so, particularly as it is a given that spores will also be retrieved from the stomach contents of the deceased victims.

Matching the spores will demonstrate that the same exact phenotype of mushroom that was dried in the dehydrator was also in the last meal of the victims.

 

[SMK777]

EP’s mother, Dr Heather Scutter, was only 72 when she died. Unless she was battling a disease, or in an accident, IMO this is quite young to pass from natural causes.

I wonder if it’s stated anywhere what she actually died from.

 

[kittythehare]

Deathcap mushroom - Amanita phalloides

The Deathcap Mushroom - Amanita phalloides, identification, emergency phone number, one of several illustrated pages introducing Australian fungi.

www.anbg.gov.au

 

[JBowie]

I work in a very "agricultural" area on the eastern outskirts of Melbourne and I have heard "on the grapevine" that sales of mushrooms are suffering and stores are having whole shelves of mushrooms untouched when other produce is sold out by the end of the day.

Echoes of the "needles in strawberries" crisis from a few years ago. A lot of strawberry farmers were hit hard by that.

The public is easily spooked, and react with (sometimes extreme) caution when there is any kind of poisoning in the news.

Yep. I was having a joke with the guy, but I can understand the impact on producers when these sorts of scares occur.