Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[bearbear]

IIRC, in previous posts, it's been mentioned that it is very difficult to discern differences between DCs and harmless fungi. If this is so, IMO accidental poisoning is quite feasible.

Indeed, if this is so, I wonder how commonly known this fact is known, as it sounds horrifically dangerous to consume any foraged fungi.

I wonder also, if a forager were to unknowingly touch a DC, could any toxin could be transmitted via hand to their mouth some time later, consequently causing grave illness/death. Perhaps foragers wear gloves? TIA on anyone's thoughts.

according to last nights under investigation expert, dc mushrooms arent known to be toxic to touch, all the poison is in the top cap and has to be injested to harm, so you can pick without gloves

 

[DeDee]

The article says that EP said the kids were at the movies, and that Homicide detectives say the kids were at the lunch.
Detectives said that the kids had presented at a hospital within days of the poisonings as a precaution, but they believe neither child ate the beef wellington.

RBBM Running behind on this due to life so thanks for the recap dated yesterday, the 22nd

Police Detectives say the two children attended the luncheon that Erin hosted. Children would certainly enjoy visiting and dining with their grandparents and others. Most GC adore being with company and friends.

Erin said, no, the children went to the movies or did she say to the cinema?

The term cinema was used in at least 1 news source but not sure if it's the word Erin used or if it's the reporter's term. Where I'm from a cinema is a paid viewing of a film on a giant indoor screen with cozy seating and space for placing a soda and popcorn. A movie is watched either outdoors on a giant screen or else indoors, at home, on a tv screen or computer.
Which term is most common in AU? tia

 

[Ellery84]

Did it point towards her guilt or examine any other possibilities?

I thought the programme was extremely balanced, sensitive and seemed to be very fact-based.

The expert panel were great/

All imo

 

[Ellery84]

according to last nights under investigation expert, dc mushrooms arent known to be toxic to touch, all the poison is in the top cap and has to be injested to harm, so you can pick without gloves

Yes, that was quite an interesting fact, wasn’t it.

 

[RickshawFan]

new from herald sun today, paywalled......

Vital mushroom toxicology samples may not have been taken in time​

If vital samples weren’t taken from the victims in time there can only be two theories: the toxin was never there to begin with, or it came and went before it could be detected.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Ftruecrimeaustralia%2Fpolice-courts-victoria%2Fvital-mushroom-toxicology-samples-may-not-have-been-taken-in-time%2Fnews-story%2F9fb4131a4f8d60283258af4864e201b9&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=HIGH-Segment-7-SCORE

They surely had to have taken blood and urine samples within hours of arriving at hospital? They do these with initial diagnosis if something digestive is going on?

 

[sapphire blue]

RBBM Running behind on this due to life so thanks for the recap dated yesterday, the 22nd

Police Detectives say the two children attended the luncheon that Erin hosted. Children would certainly enjoy visiting and dining with their grandparents and others. Most GC adore being with company and friends.

Erin said, no, the children went to the movies or did she say to the cinema?

The term cinema was used in at least 1 news source but not sure if it's the word Erin used or if it's the reporter's term. Where I'm from a cinema is a paid viewing of a film on a giant indoor screen with cozy seating and space for placing a soda and popcorn. A movie is watched either outdoors on a giant screen or else indoors, at home, on a tv screen or computer.
Which term is most common in AU? tia

most Aussies say went to the movies, we are a rather casual nation, cinema would be used by older or more formal types.

 

[LacieL]

My mind is coming back to the dehydrator - and to the idea of whether the mushrooms were collected, dehydrated and stored - at a much earlier time.


For what??? and why??


Just in case things deteriorated and you might need to use these - storing them for future you??

I have wondered if EP was into fantasy/apothecary type stuff. I hesitate to say witchcraft because that word means different things to different people and many would associate it with evil or doing harm which isn’t necessarily the intent.

I have no idea if collecting death cap mushrooms is ever something someone would do if that was their hobby or interest. Probably not? Maybe?

 

[Puzzles]

IIRC, in previous posts, it's been mentioned that it is very difficult to discern differences between DCs and harmless fungi. If this is so, IMO accidental poisoning is quite feasible.

Indeed, if this is so, I wonder how commonly known this fact is known, as it sounds horrifically dangerous to consume any foraged fungi.

I wonder also, if a forager were to unknowingly touch a DC, could any toxin could be transmitted via hand to their mouth some time later, consequently causing grave illness/death. Perhaps foragers wear gloves? TIA on anyone's thoughts.

SBBM.

Great post, jjeroche, and yes, I agree with all your thoughts.

Decades ago, I attended a four-day course on wild mushrooms.

The leader was an esteemed mycologist whose name I've forgotten and to whom the stomach contents from victims of fungi poisoning were sent for identification from all over the world — he had long, pointy ears and the quizzical face of a gnome. When I first saw Yoda the following year, I thought that's the mushroom man!

He took us out to forage and cooked us a fabulous meal consisting of an appetizer, main dish, and dessert using only eggs, pasta, nuts, honey, wine, herbs, spices, and countless varieties of mushrooms.

He repeatedly warned us that every edible mushroom has an almost identical toxic counterpart, indistinguishable by most people. He showed us some examples in the forest to drive home his message.

He discouraged us from foraging, saying that to avoid being poisoned, one had to be either professionally trained in mushroom identification or very lucky.

For this reason, I've never again picked wild mushrooms.

And for this reason, if the evidence proves that EP's guests died from ingesting toxic mushrooms, I can't stand with those who already appear confident she poisoned them intentionally.

 

[jjleroche]

It is not that difficult to figure out the differences. I used to forage mushrooms all the time when I was younger. Obviously I am still alive.

Glad you weren't affected jjenny.

 

[jjleroche]

SBBM.

Great post, jjeroche, and yes, I agree with all your thoughts.

Decades ago, I attended a four-day course on wild mushrooms.

The leader was an esteemed mycologist whose name I've forgotten and to whom the stomach contents from victims of fungi poisoning were sent for identification from all over the world — he had long, pointy ears and the quizzical face of a gnome. When I first saw Yoda the following year, I thought that's the mushroom man!

He took us out to forage and cooked us a fabulous meal consisting of an appetizer, main dish, and dessert using only eggs, pasta, nuts, honey, wine, herbs, spices, and countless varieties of mushrooms.

He repeatedly warned us that every edible mushroom has an almost identical toxic counterpart, indistinguishable by most people. He showed us some examples in the forest to drive home his message.

He discouraged us from foraging, saying that to avoid being poisoned, one had to be either professionally trained in mushroom identification or very lucky.

For this reason, I've never again picked wild mushrooms.

And for this reason, if the evidence proves that EP's guests died from ingesting toxic mushrooms, I can't stand with those who already appear confident she poisoned them intentionally.

Gasp!! This information is VERY interesting Puzzles. Thank you.
That must have been a fascinating experience, learning about mushrooms, dining with the Mushroom Man.

His warning: "every edible mushroom has an almost identical toxic counterpart, indistinguishable by most people"
is quite spine-chilling, but very useful for people to know.

 

[jjleroche]

most Aussies say went to the movies, we are a rather casual nation, cinema would be used by older or more formal types.

We also might say we went to the "pictures", or "the flicks", (used more by males possibly) or just "we went to see Barbie".

 

[TootsieFootsie]

We also might say we went to the "pictures", or "the flicks", (used more by males possibly) or just "we went to see Barbie".

Or the fillums as I have heard some country people say.

 

[jepop]

Hypothetically - I wonder if EP had said from the start she is a mushroom forager and used them in her meal. Foraged for them a few months back dehydrated them and then subsequently used them in the lunch she prepared innocently.

Could she have then raised some doubt about whether at some point in the Death Cap Mushroom's growth that they can be hard to recognise or when they are smaller in size harder to discern from regular non poisonous mushrooms.

So therefore - if she had used that option - would it be harder to establish her intent?? I am just thinking if there is any scope for mistaken identification with these particular mushrooms??? MOO

RBBM: You would think she would have done so if she was guilty and concocting an explanation that utilises plausible deniability Moo. That seems the option that would make sense Imo. However in her statement given to Police she doesn't say that at all. She says she bought two lots of mushrooms that she used in the wellington - the buttons from the supermarket and the dried mushrooms from an Asian Grocer in Melbourne. Moo - from reading what has been published from her statement.

 

[jjenny]

Gasp!! This information is VERY interesting Puzzles. Thank you.
That must have been a fascinating experience, learning about mushrooms, dining with the Mushroom Man.

His warning: "every edible mushroom has an almost identical toxic counterpart, indistinguishable by most people"
is quite spine-chilling, but very useful for people to know.

I know a lot of edible mushrooms. And none of them have a nearly identical toxic counterpart. Death cap has a specific look to it.

 

[jjenny]

Glad you weren't affected jjenny.

Again, it's not hard to tell edible mushrooms from poisonous mushrooms.

 

[jepop]

The private detective said that he didn't know what to make of the remark about the worker "not working on that Saturday morning". But he made sure that he mentioned it on the show.

The workers must have told him about the police looking for (specifically) microwave trays and other kitchen utensils on the Tuesday.

My thought was that perhaps the mushroom paste was microwaved at some point before coating the beef. Or that she said she reheated the leftover beef wellington in the microwave the next day.

Don't understand why that remark means she was at the dump the day before the lunch?

 

[jepop]

IIRC, in previous posts, it's been mentioned that it is very difficult to discern differences between DCs and harmless fungi. If this is so, IMO accidental poisoning is quite feasible.

Indeed, if this is so, I wonder how commonly known this fact is known, as it sounds horrifically dangerous to consume any foraged fungi.

I wonder also, if a forager were to unknowingly touch a DC, could any toxin could be transmitted via hand to their mouth some time later, consequently causing grave illness/death. Perhaps foragers wear gloves? TIA on anyone's thoughts.

Just as a lay person, on the basis of what I've read, I don't think touching a death cap then transferring that hand to the mouth would be enough to cause illness and certainly not death. Doing that could include a small amount of ingestion I suppose but it seems death caps are only potentially deadly if consumed. Moo

 

[Baby baby Jane]

RBBM: You would think she would have done so if she was guilty and concocting an explanation that utilises plausible deniability Moo. That seems the option that would make sense Imo. However in her statement given to Police she doesn't say that at all. She says she bought two lots of mushrooms that she used in the wellington - the buttons from the supermarket and the dried mushrooms from an Asian Grocer in Melbourne. Moo - from reading what has been published from her statement.

So, since the Asian mushrooms were already DRIED, the they did not need to go in the food dehydrator which she dumped.

It’s the supermarket button mushrooms?
OR
Perhaps she is genius and the poison was in the drinks and she’s diverting attention to mushrooms, neither of which are poisonous.

 

[Ellery84]

So, since the Asian mushrooms were already DRIED, the they did not need to go in the food dehydrator which she dumped.

It’s the supermarket button mushrooms?
OR
Perhaps she is genius and the poison was in the drinks and she’s diverting attention to mushrooms, neither of which are poisonous.

You think she’s put something in their water??

Maybe the poisoned family member who spoke to the paramedic (remember when he [the paramedic] was so alarmed that the called the cops?) specifically mentioned that he’d been poisoned by mushrooms.

IMO

 

[Ellery84]

It’s the supermarket button mushrooms?

VIC public health / VIC Government have put out no health alerts or product recalls in store-brought mushrooms.

Afaik

Source: MSM