Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #4

[Oona]

Mushroom expert explodes myth about beef Wellington victims

A world expert on Death Cap mushroom poisoning says claims in Australia that Erin Patterson's lunch guests would have no residue left of the toxin that killed them is nonsense.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Has this been posted yet?



He rejected claims by Australian toxicologists that there would be no residue of the toxin for forensic police to examine.

One Melbourne toxicologist said that 'the toxin found in death cap mushrooms are only detectable for about 48 hours after ingestion'.

Thanks for sharing, there is so much fascinating and horrifying detail in that article.

I suppose it is possible that DC toxins were flushed from EP’s body successfully with the IV fluids but I would expect it would take some time and close monitoring. I would have expected the children to need the same treatment, even as a precaution, given the potency of the toxin described by this expert.
I also imagine the Police would have been less likely to have named EP as a suspect, searched her home etc. so urgently if it was shown that she had become perilously close to becoming as unwell as her guests.

 

[RickshawFan]

Mediation lunch regarding marriage/separation - kids should not be there. Smart to send to cinema.
Husband should be there unless his view is: it’s over, I want divorce. And, because he is so tired of EP and talking about divorce that he refuses to go the lunch couple of days before. He has no interest in seeing her at all.
He leaves it to his his parents and Pastor to “be there” for EP and maybe reassure her.
EP on the other hand, now understands it’s not a reconciliation lunch she is preparing which will help her win back husband and help the others see that he should get back with her because she has nice new house, makes nice lunch and of course marriage is forever.
Now it’s sympathy lunch with her in-laws, and SP won’t attend. Big insult and very upsetting to realise it’s over and she still expected to be nice and make this meal when she just wants to explode with anger at the rejection.
Rage feelings and she gathers a few extra special mushrooms and dries them to reduce their size and make easier to handle puts a heavy dose of rage and spite into the sauce/gravy.
She will let the guests choose and serve themselves, so they are making the life /death decision themselves. Choose gravy, you have sealed your own fate. Not EP choice or action, they did it themselves, it’s in God’s hands. Etc.
Further,
I have noticed that she is 49, and quite possibly suffering from hormone related mental health symptoms at this age. Some very few women suffer from severe symptoms of rage, depression & psychosis. I lost a dear friend at 50 taking her own life after some months of very dark moods and odd behavior. It not an excuse, but could be a factor.

IMO this is a great layout of the possibilities. I agree with most of it, but I feel weird about menopause being in the mix. We’ve had too many centuries where women have been treated as though they’re crazy when they reach menopause.

 

[RickshawFan]

Or maybe the dehydrator was discarded sometime on the Saturday or on the Sunday before EP presented to Leongatha hospital. I believe the tip closed at 4pm. I think the dehydrator was discarded before the convo with SP….if that alleged conversation even happened.

My understanding is that EP and children presented to the local Leongatha Hospital as a precaution after learning her guests were unwell with potential food-poisoning (presumably in the evening after children allegedly ate left-overs). EP and children were all cleared and sent home. Then sometime on the Monday she presented to hospital again with gastro symptoms and was transferred to Monash for the IV fluids and the ‘liver protecting drug.’

My assumption is that the alleged dehydrator discussion with SP occurred during that first presentation to Leongatha Hospital with the children. SP may have been there already with his parents.

The children had the leftovers the next day. This is AFTER they all became sick.

 

[kittythehare]

Pondering how I would react if I served lunch and next day or so I find out guests were desperately ill in hospital.
You can guarantee I would be very very worried about everything in the house to the point of panic. I would not want to stay in house, never mind eating anything or feeding my kids. I would insist kids get stomach pump and stay in hospital because I would be insane with worry.
I Would be seeking professional help to make sure my house was safe and probably boxing up everything, including rubbish from the meal to find out what ingredient was contaminated. I would want to know who to blame, because I would know that I was not to blame. I would be listing the shops that sold every ingredient for possibly source of toxin - the contaminated meat, the water from my taps, the tea, the salad, the roasting dish, everything! I would be 100% making sure the media knew I was going to find out which shop sold me the poison!!

Watching the eyes-closed blubbering interview by the red car, I was puzzled because of what she didn’t say. She didn’t really express worry about possibly something wrong at her house, the ingredients or any worry about finding the cause of illness.

I'd leave it to the professionals, not the media, but that's just me.
We are not a homogeneous race.

 

[al66pine]

Division of Property. Financial Settlement for SP?

... EP herself would be financially hit if her husband wanted a formal divorce, no doubt he would be entitled to a generous settlement.

@Observe_dont_Absorb snipped for focus.

A generous settlement for SP? Respectfully, not necessarily, depending on multiple factors.

1. Terms of a financial agreement* they may have entered. Perhaps pre-nuptial or at time of initial separation or even since then.*
If no financial agreement in place, then depends on---
2. Statutes re division of property. Per info from an OZ law firm, courts consider the entire financial pic in determining whether a given asset is included in the pool of assets available to be divided as matrimonial property.**
IOW, the houses that MSM sources say are EP's, from her inheritance may be "off the table" for any of them to be included in the pool subject to division.
3. Financial circumstances of EP & SP, but AFAIK, we/gen public do not know:
--- earned income either has,
--- investment either has,
--- assets either has (aside from some real estate EP inherited and some since purchased),
--- debt either has, secured or unsecured.

OP's prediction may be accurate, IDK.
The basis for making any prediction is quite limited imo.


__________________________________________
*A couple may decide.
"A financial agreement can be an effective way for couples to plan for the division of their assets in the event of a separation. Such agreements can be made before or during a relationship, or after separation. There are various advantages to entering into a financial agreement, ..."

Family Lawyers - Expert Family Law Firm

Lander & Rogers - Family & Divorce Lawyers. Expert Family, Defacto Relationship Law Firm in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Australia

www.landers.com.au

** If court is involved in prop. division.
".... In Australia, however, the categorisation of property and how property is owned or registered is irrelevant for the purposes of identifying the pool of assets available for division. Rather, matrimonial property includes all assets, liabilities, superannuation and financial resources that the parties have an interest in under joint names, their respective sole names and, in certain cases, via corporate entities and trusts,...."
".... Rather than focusing on how a property is registered, categorised or owned, the Australian courts will consider how and when property was acquired by one or both parties when they consider whether the property should be included in the pool of assets available for division.

Sometimes, property can be excluded from the assets available for division depending on how or when it was acquired (for example, an inheritance received post-separation), however, such circumstances are uncommon.
In most cases, Australian courts will consider the totality of the property available for division between the parties. How and when the property was acquired and each party's contributions to property may ultimately have a substantial impact on what each party keeps as their final property settlement outcome...."

What is "property" in Australian family law?

In Australian family law, property for division includes assets, liabilities, superannuation and financial resources that the parties have an interest in.

www.landers.com.au

 

[jjenny]

Thanks for sharing, there is so much fascinating and horrifying detail in that article.

I suppose it is possible that DC toxins were flushed from EP’s body successfully with the IV fluids but I would expect it would take some time and close monitoring. I would have expected the children to need the same treatment, even as a precaution, given the potency of the toxin described by this expert.
I also imagine the Police would have been less likely to have named EP as a suspect, searched her home etc. so urgently if it was shown that she had become perilously close to becoming as unwell as her guests.

No, I don't think it is possible to flash the poisons from the body with IV fluids. If it were possible her guests would have been alive and well after getting IVs. The toxin destroys the liver.

 

[Charlot123]

100% I'd be going out of my mind, in fact I'd probably need putting in hospital and medication because I'd be fearing everything from pollution, gases, something in the water, malicious toxins on anything that could be touched... I'd be screaming off the rooftops and terrified that someone was trying to take all mine and my family's lives. I'd be coming up with conspiracy theories and all sorts.

I do feel that none of E's statements conflict with the fact that she may well have murdered them. For example she says she loved them very much, they were like her own family, etc. Well, indeed, all of those things can be true at the same time. Ditto she hopes Don will pull through when in fact he has already passed, it's Ian who is the survivor, and if she's guilty she sure as heck won't be wanting Ian to be pull through. Some people aren't able to lie and maybe she's one of them.

Absolutely.

I put myself into that situation - people were poisoned with something in my house.

First, I’d grab my kids and move away, taking nothing with me.

Then, all I’d know would be suspected poison, not necessarily mushrooms yet.

I’d be screaming that there is something in the house, please take samples, Novichok, Polonium, mushrooms, I am not moving back in.

Sure thing, unless you put the poison into the food yourself, you are horribly scared. You also don’t know who the target it.

EP is complaining that she can’t invite her friends into the house.

 

[jjenny]

Yea, she is complaining her friends can't visit her. Like her friends are dreaming about sampling some more of her cooking.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Division of Property. Financial Settlement for SP?

@Observe_dont_Absorb snipped for focus.

A generous settlement for SP? Respectfully, not necessarily, depending on multiple favtors.

1. Terms of a financial agreement* they may have entered. Perhaps pre-nuptial or at time of initial separation or even since then.*
If no financial agreement in place, then depends on---
2. Statutes re division of property. Per info from an OZ law firm, courts consider the entire financial pic in determining whether a given asset is included in the pool of assets available to be divided as matrimonial property.**
3. Financial circumstances of EP & SP, but AFAIK, we/gen public do not know:
--- earned income either has,
--- investment either has,
--- assets either has (aside from some real estate EP inherited and some since purchased),
--- debt either has, secured or unsecured.

OP's prediction may be accurate, IDK.
The basis for making any prediction is quite limited imo.


__________________________________________
*A couple may decide.
"A financial agreement can be an effective way for couples to plan for the division of their assets in the event of a separation. Such agreements can be made before or during a relationship, or after separation. There are various advantages to entering into a financial agreement, ..."

Family Lawyers - Expert Family Law Firm

Lander & Rogers - Family & Divorce Lawyers. Expert Family, Defacto Relationship Law Firm in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Australia

www.landers.com.au

** If court is involved in prop. division.
".... In Australia, however, the categorisation of property and how property is owned or registered is irrelevant for the purposes of identifying the pool of assets available for division. Rather, matrimonial property includes all assets, liabilities, superannuation and financial resources that the parties have an interest in under joint names, their respective sole names and, in certain cases, via corporate entities and trusts,...."
".... Rather than focusing on how a property is registered, categorised or owned, the Australian courts will consider how and when property was acquired by one or both parties when they consider whether the property should be included in the pool of assets available for division.

Sometimes, property can be excluded from the assets available for division depending on how or when it was acquired (for example, an inheritance received post-separation), however, such circumstances are uncommon.
In most cases, Australian courts will consider the totality of the property available for division between the parties. How and when the property was acquired and each party's contributions to property may ultimately have a substantial impact on what each party keeps as their final property settlement outcome...."

What is "property" in Australian family law?

In Australian family law, property for division includes assets, liabilities, superannuation and financial resources that the parties have an interest in.

www.landers.com.au

I would assume that if this couple don't have a 'pre-nup', then the division of property is basically E giving S a whole chunk of her inherited wealth in accordance with legislation.

 

[kittythehare]

There is a huge financial motive in all this and it is only for that reason I question that maybe something more complex has occurred.

Notwithstanding, EP herself would be financially hit if her husband wanted a formal divorce, no doubt he would be entitled to a generous settlement.

They already had their formal separation where i imagine those details had been worked out. back in January 2021

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

They already had their formal separation where i imagine those details had been worked out. back in January 2021

Really? Was it a legally discussed separation where they came to terms and agreements? Is this a fact or just speculation?

I wonder what the meeting was about then? Maybe E wasn't sticking to the terms. Also why hadn't there been an actual divorce if they'd agreed all that?

 

[Baby baby Jane]

IMO this is a great layout of the possibilities. I agree with most of it, but I feel weird about menopause being in the mix. We’ve had too many centuries where women have been treated as though they’re crazy when they reach menopause.

Trust me, reluctant to put it in words but my close friend was misdiagnosed and wrongly medicated for mood issues, leading to her taking her own life where HRT was better option and she might be alive today. They say there’s a link with post natal depression & same at menopause. There can be rage. My friends eulogy included an informational talk from a Menopause Charity. Their view is that many women suffer in silence, and medical professionals don’t even study menopause at med school. She had suffered depression after birth of her children, yet no one told her she might suffer again at menopause. Did I mention that she was a nurse? So not medically naive. Symptoms are real, and can be treated rather than ignored by Drs. Women and doctors need to be aware so that women get support they need.
There’s been vague talk about EP mental health … just offering a possible trigger at age 49 for possible extreme reaction to life stress.

 

[kittythehare]

Really? Was it a legally discussed separation where they came to terms and agreements? Is this a fact or just speculation?

I wonder what the meeting was about then? Maybe E wasn't sticking to the terms. Also why hadn't there been an actual divorce if they'd agreed all that?

Is it a fact or speculation?
I'm not speculating.

It is a report, most of which are highly speculative, contradictory and fairly wild and biased.

It's been discussed umpteenth times on these threads and is not new information

'Patterson and her estranged husband, Simon, had an acrimonious relationship, and had been living in separate homes for several years before formally separating in 2021..'

Mushroom cook says she bought fungi from Asian grocer and her children ate the lunch leftovers

Erin Patterson told police she, too, was sick from the beef Wellington lunch that police suspect killed her former in-laws and another relative.

www.theage.com.au

 

[kittythehare]

Absolutely.

I put myself into that situation - people were poisoned with something in my house.

First, I’d grab my kids and move away, taking nothing with me.

Then, all I’d know would be suspected poison, not necessarily mushrooms yet.

I’d be screaming that there is something in the house, please take samples, Novichok, Polonium, mushrooms, I am not moving back in.

Sure thing, unless you put the poison into the food yourself, you are horribly scared. You also don’t know who the target it.

EP is complaining that she can’t invite her friends into the house.

She's complaining about several things and that is her right.

Mushroom cook says she bought fungi from Asian grocer and her children ate the lunch leftovers

Erin Patterson told police she, too, was sick from the beef Wellington lunch that police suspect killed her former in-laws and another relative.

www.theage.com.au

 

[kittythehare]

Trust me, reluctant to put it in words but my close friend was misdiagnosed and wrongly medicated for mood issues, leading to her taking her own life where HRT was better option and she might be alive today. They say there’s a link with post natal depression & same at menopause. There can be rage. My friends eulogy included an informational talk from a Menopause Charity. Their view is that many women suffer in silence, and medical professionals don’t even study menopause at med school. She had suffered depression after birth of her children, yet no one told her she might suffer again at menopause. Did I mention that she was a nurse? So not medically naive. Symptoms are real, and can be treated rather than ignored by Drs. Women and doctors need to be aware so that women get support they need.
There’s been vague talk about EP mental health … just offering a possible trigger at age 49 for possible extreme reaction to life stress.

In the statement, Patterson said the poisoning of her lunch guests and the intense speculation generated by the case had seriously affected her mental health and wellbeing.

Not a speculated menopause or other gender bias..
Just the intense online hatred and bullying and malice


This is the police statement, it has not been renewed afaik.
They have listed 3 possibilities here


Homicide squad Detective Inspector Dean Thomas has said Patterson remained a suspect because she cooked the meals. But he has also said police were still considering an accidental poisoning “not at the hands of somebody else” to be a possibility, alongside a potentially “nefarious activity”.

Mushroom cook says she bought fungi from Asian grocer and her children ate the lunch leftovers

Erin Patterson told police she, too, was sick from the beef Wellington lunch that police suspect killed her former in-laws and another relative.

www.theage.com.au

 

[CityKid]

From the link.

Patterson said her children had attended the movies prior to the lunch and were not in attendance, the ABC reports. She said the children ate the leftovers the following night but because they didn’t like mushrooms she had scraped them off the meal.

After the onset of symptoms, Patterson said she was contacted by the Department of Health and gave what was left of the lunch to hospital toxicologists for examination. She said she told investigators where she bought the mushrooms, but she was unable to identify the specific shop in Melbourne.

…

Kids at leftovers the next nite, scraping mushrooms off, yet she still had leftovers to give to department of health.
???

Leftover’s and more leftover’s.

BBM. By that point, a full day after the luncheon, everyone who ate it was in hospital. Surprising no one had contacted her yet; surely, if she knew people had gotten sick from food she served, she wouldn't serve it to her children...

 

[CityKid]

yet EP had reportedly previously told her ex she didn’t want a reconciliation, after she had reluctantly nursed him after his illness.

‘Ms Patterson said she had previously told her ex that she did not want to reconcile with him.
This conversation happened after she "reluctantly" agreed to nurse Mr Patterson for three weeks when he was discharged from hospital in May 2022 following a severe stomach illness, she said.‘

Leongatha mushroom death suspect Erin Patterson tells her side of the story

Ms Patterson said beef Wellington was the served at the fatal lunch.

www.canberratimes.com.au

Have we ever heard about why she agreed to care for her husband, from whom she'd separated, when he could have gone to his parents' home? It seems as if he's close with them.

 

[al66pine]

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********* RickshawFan ********

"Government-speak has wordy words"

Please show your appreciation by reacting w Likes or Loves for this special phrase from @RickshawFan, a ten year Websleuths member.

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I took this writer to be a US government functionary prior to his media job. Government-speak has wordy words, such as “prior to” instead of the simple “before”.

 

[SMK777]

Trust me, reluctant to put it in words but my close friend was misdiagnosed and wrongly medicated for mood issues, leading to her taking her own life where HRT was better option and she might be alive today. They say there’s a link with post natal depression & same at menopause. There can be rage. My friends eulogy included an informational talk from a Menopause Charity. Their view is that many women suffer in silence, and medical professionals don’t even study menopause at med school. She had suffered depression after birth of her children, yet no one told her she might suffer again at menopause. Did I mention that she was a nurse? So not medically naive. Symptoms are real, and can be treated rather than ignored by Drs. Women and doctors need to be aware so that women get support they need.
There’s been vague talk about EP mental health … just offering a possible trigger at age 49 for possible extreme reaction to life stress.

My sister suffered from menopause psychosis, and so did an aunt. It’s real.

 

[kittythehare]

My sister suffered from menopause psychosis, and so did an aunt. It’s real.

It may well be real but there is nothing to indicate it is the case here.
We do not diagnose.