Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #4

[al66pine]

Check out @al66pine posts a little ways upthread. Also:....

Inheritance and Divorce in Australia | Unified Lawyers

Inheritance and divorce property settlements can be difficult to navigate. Find out how an inheritance could be treated in a divorce in Australia here.

www.unifiedlawyers.com.au

More information at the link....

@jjenny posted same.
^^^^ Great minds searching alike????

@katydid23 They both found a good explanation. Plain language.

FWIW: the ct determines which assets are to be included in the asset pool subject to division, but the split is not an automatic 50/50, as some ppl believe.

"Most property proceedings result in a division of 55 to 65% in favour of the economically weaker spouse, historically the wife, before payment of legal fees...."

Divorce Law in Australia. How are assets split? (2024)

How are assets divided in a divorce in Australia? It's important to note that a divorce and property settlement are different legal processes. (2024)

pearsonslawyers.com.au

 

[Forest_Wood]

Homicide squad Detective Inspector Dean Thomas has said Patterson remained a suspect because she cooked the meals. But he has also said police were still considering an accidental poisoning “not at the hands of somebody else” to be a possibility, alongside a potentially “nefarious activity”.

If Erin is already included in the suspect category because she cooked the meals, what might "nefarious activity" be referring to?

 

[kittythehare]

If Erin is already included in the suspect category because she cooked the meals, what might "nefarious activity" be referring to?

Exactly.
No idea.

 

[DeDee]

I assume that SP would have been quickly aware of the medical crisis of his family members unless he was temporarily out of contact for some reason.

Would he have suspected some foul play involving poisoning and immediately flagged up this issue to the medics and LE?

< PSBMFF >

Upon learning that his parents and his Aunt Gail and Uncle Ian had fallen severely ill after the luncheon in Leongatha with Erin, surely fear was rampant within Simon's body. He'd been there in the hospital for months with similar ailments, according to news sources. Maybe every lucid thing came together to form a pattern for him.

I don't believe, at this point, that Erin nursed Simon back to good health. I believe his neighbor.

AUG 9 https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/09/mushroom-poisoning-death-other-man-was-invited-to-ex-wifes-lunch-19303735/#
The neighbour, who did not want to be named, said Mr Patterson had been staying with his parents while recovering from that illness.

‘After his illness, there might have been a separation,’ he said. ‘We don’t know why they split up. They were a very private family.’

 

[MsMarple]

I finally finished reading the DM article quoting a doctor that someone linked to earlier. It’s definitely worth reading, especially for those who are trying to understand how the doctors diagnosed suspected death cap poisoning. The article gives a thorough description. Also mentioned was:

Dr L said that apart from being lethal, amatoxin's other danger was that it was 'extremely water soluble' and would be absorbed in the juice or gravy of a pie or casserole.

'So when you cook it in something, boil or fry it, it seeps in very quickly,' he said.

'When you eat the mushroom, it gets absorbed into the gastrointestinal tract super fast.

'But you can drop a mushroom into a glass of water and its gets absorbed very fast. You don't have to eat the mushroom, if you drink the water you will get poisoned.

'And it only takes a tiny amount of mushroom. There was the case of a 6ft 2ins man who ate a tiny bit of mushroom he picked off the grass in a mental health care facility. He was dead within three to four days.'
…
He said that if Victoria Police were interested in examining a food hydrator used by Erin Patterson, as reported in the media, they would not have to test it for Amatoxin, but instead could identify traces of amanita phalloides 'by its DNA'.

Mushroom expert explodes myth about beef Wellington victims

A world expert on Death Cap mushroom poisoning says claims in Australia that Erin Patterson's lunch guests would have no residue left of the toxin that killed them is nonsense.

www.dailymail.co.uk

No way did the children eat poisoned beef after the mushrooms were scraped off. EP is telling another lie.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If Erin is already included in the suspect category because she cooked the meals, what might "nefarious activity" be referring to?

That the poisoning was accidental albeit at the hands of EP because she was perpetrating another 'nefarious' act, ie she'd been purposefully drying death cap mushrooms for some other reason but then had cross contaminated the meal.

Why would someone prepare deadly substances? Maybe EP has been poisoning wildlife? Maybe preparing to take her own life? Maybe giving it / selling it to other people? mind boggles...

ETA: maybe she's confessed that she wanted to kill her husband not anyone else?

 

[kittythehare]

Right. I didn’t make myself clear enough.

I was not saying EP suffered from it;

I was addressing @RickshawFan having said:

“IMO this is a great layout of the possibilities. I agree with most of it, but I feel weird about menopause being in the mix. We’ve had too many centuries where women have been treated as though they’re crazy when they reach menopause.”

yeah, but Rickshaw was responding to a post that linked the theory with E.
Speculating on non existent hypotheses.

this is all the police have stated.

Homicide squad Detective Inspector Dean Thomas has said Patterson remained a suspect because she cooked the meals. But he has also said police were still considering an accidental poisoning “not at the hands of somebody else” to be a possibility, alongside a potentially “nefarious activity”.

Mushroom cook says she bought fungi from Asian grocer and her children ate the lunch leftovers

Erin Patterson told police she, too, was sick from the beef Wellington lunch that police suspect killed her former in-laws and another relative.

www.theage.com.au

 

[kittythehare]

I finally finished reading the DM article quoting a doctor that someone linked to earlier. It’s definitely worth reading, especially for those who are trying to understand how the doctors diagnosed suspected death cap poisoning. The article gives a thorough description. Also mentioned was:

Dr L said that apart from being lethal, amatoxin's other danger was that it was 'extremely water soluble' and would be absorbed in the juice or gravy of a pie or casserole.

'So when you cook it in something, boil or fry it, it seeps in very quickly,' he said.

'When you eat the mushroom, it gets absorbed into the gastrointestinal tract super fast.

'But you can drop a mushroom into a glass of water and its gets absorbed very fast. You don't have to eat the mushroom, if you drink the water you will get poisoned.

'And it only takes a tiny amount of mushroom. There was the case of a 6ft 2ins man who ate a tiny bit of mushroom he picked off the grass in a mental health care facility. He was dead within three to four days.'
…
He said that if Victoria Police were interested in examining a food hydrator used by Erin Patterson, as reported in the media, they would not have to test it for Amatoxin, but instead could identify traces of amanita phalloides 'by its DNA'.

Mushroom expert explodes myth about beef Wellington victims

A world expert on Death Cap mushroom poisoning says claims in Australia that Erin Patterson's lunch guests would have no residue left of the toxin that killed them is nonsense.

www.dailymail.co.uk

No way did the children eat poisoned beef after the mushrooms were scraped off. EP is telling another lie.

This is a better one if you're in the mood for a deep dive.

Mycetism: A Review of the Recent Literature - Journal of Medical Toxicology

Approximately 100 of the known species of mushrooms are poisonous to humans. New toxic mushroom species continue to be identified. Some species initially classified as edible are later reclassified as toxic. This results in a continually expanding list of toxic mushrooms. As new toxic species...

link.springer.com

 

[SMK777]

yeah, but Rickshaw was responding to a post that linked the theory with E.
Speculating on non existent hypotheses.

this is all the police have stated.

Homicide squad Detective Inspector Dean Thomas has said Patterson remained a suspect because she cooked the meals. But he has also said police were still considering an accidental poisoning “not at the hands of somebody else” to be a possibility, alongside a potentially “nefarious activity”.

Mushroom cook says she bought fungi from Asian grocer and her children ate the lunch leftovers

Erin Patterson told police she, too, was sick from the beef Wellington lunch that police suspect killed her former in-laws and another relative.

www.theage.com.au

Granted. We know nothing of EP having menopausal issues.
But my point was, it’s not a medieval theory as R says: It’s as real as postpartum depression. Whether it applies here is unknown at present.

 

[MsMarple]

This is a better one if you're in the mood for a deep dive.

Mycetism: A Review of the Recent Literature - Journal of Medical Toxicology

Approximately 100 of the known species of mushrooms are poisonous to humans. New toxic mushroom species continue to be identified. Some species initially classified as edible are later reclassified as toxic. This results in a continually expanding list of toxic mushrooms. As new toxic species...

link.springer.com

Thanks! Yes, the paper does support what the doctor said in the DM article, although it’s 9 years old; since then the death cap has spread substantially to other countries. Still, some of it is informative.

 

[katydid23]

I've been looking at Beef Wellington recipes and images. Many of them are served with a mushroom gravy/sauce served on the side or ladled over the top.

If she served hers that way she could have put the lethal ones in the sauce only. That way she could eat her portion and spare herself the medical issues.

Just wanted to add, she also, allegedly, could have given the medical examiners the rolled beef/mushrooms, and not given them any of the sauce she added to it . JMO

 

[jjenny]

Just wanted to add, she also, allegedly, could have given the medical examiners the rolled beef/mushrooms, and not given them any of the sauce she added to it . JMO

The gravy or sauce would presumably be in a separate container. So, yes, she could have given the medical examiners beef wellington but not the sauce.

 

[kittythehare]

Thanks! Yes, the paper does support what the doctor said in the DM article, although it’s 9 years old; since then the death cap has spread substantially to other countries. Still, some of it is informative.

It is a cited paper by a named person. unlike Dr L who for some peculiar reason did not give his name?
The route and action of the poisoning did not change and is unlikely to change.
Is the point.

 

[katydid23]

Upon learning that his parents and his Aunt Gail and Uncle Ian had fallen severely ill after the luncheon in Leongatha with Erin, surely fear was rampant within Simon's body. He'd been there in the hospital for months with similar ailments, according to news sources. Maybe every lucid thing came together to form a pattern for him.

I don't believe, at this point, that Erin nursed Simon back to good health. I believe his neighbor.

AUG 9 https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/09/mushroom-poisoning-death-other-man-was-invited-to-ex-wifes-lunch-19303735/#
The neighbour, who did not want to be named, said Mr Patterson had been staying with his parents while recovering from that illness.

‘After his illness, there might have been a separation,’ he said. ‘We don’t know why they split up. They were a very private family.’

Two things that she has said don't ring true to me.
One, that she didn't want to reconcile with her ex.
Two, that she reluctantly nursed him back to health.

It feels to me, more like she may have, allegedly, made him unwell intentionally. And hoped she could then take care of him so she could get back with him. But he apparently went home to his parents instead.

She also said she loved her in-laws like they were her own family. That was probably true at one time, but after the separation? I am not so sure.

 

[DeDee]

If Erin is already included in the suspect category because she cooked the meals, what might "nefarious activity" be referring to?

From my viewpoint, those nefarious activities might include but are not limited to:

Researching poisonous DC mushrooms; IE, where to find them, ID them, how to use them
Foraging for poisonous DC mushrooms
Growing DC mushrooms
Transporting toxic substances
Storing toxic DC mushrooms
Dehydrating poisonous DC mushrooms
Inviting targeted guests to dine on a fatally poisoned meal

 

[MsMarple]

The gravy or sauce would presumably be in a separate container. So, yes, she could have given the medical examiners beef wellington but not the sauce.

After reading the DM article I realize that EP didn’t have to do much at all to poison virtually any food or drink item on the luncheon menu. Drop a dried mushroom into the coffee pot or teapot, pour tainted water for them to drink. Into gravy or a red wine reduction to serve over the meat.

Gosh, the possibilities are endless. It does make me think the dehydrator is significant. IMO we sometimes give more credit to a suspect/poi than we should. IF EP is guilty of a crime it’s likely she made at least one mistake and that could include thinking no one would notice (or find) a discarded dehydrator.
MOO

 

[Neet_Mc]

I'm seeing the construction "prior to" a lot.

Contrary to initial reports from police, who said Ms Patterson's children were present but did not eat the meal, Ms Patterson said the children had actually gone to the movies prior to lunch.
. . .
Ms Patterson said her estranged husband intended joining the fatal lunch but told her "prior to the day" that he would not be attending.

Woman who cooked suspected poisoned meal details where she bought mushrooms

The woman who cooked a meal that is believed to have contained poisonous mushrooms and led to the deaths of three people gives a lengthy written statement to police detailing her account of what happened, and revealing she was hospitalised after the incident.

www.abc.net.au

Why so vague? It might have been a 10:15am movie start and the kids were back before

Taking a slightly different slant here, ‘prior to’ is an adverb phrase used to convey a much greater emphasis on something that taking place earlier than say the word ‘before’ would.
Given ‘prior to’ appears in EP’s own account/statement, and undoubtedly having a language background/interest via her academic mother, EP is definitely aiming to point out these events occurred before the lunch.
Going on the belief she knowingly made the poisoned lunch, in my view EP emphasising these events to strengthen her ‘storyline’ of how things unfolded so that she can control the narrative. It doesn’t lock her down to a fixed timeframe like say ‘10.15’ would, which could be corroborated by evidence - cctv, ticket purchase etc - but it is less likely to be muddled by say SP, kids, or even the surviving victim giving a slightly different version of events. She can’t be accused of lying, at best just being evasive with some truths. Ultimately, like a lot of aspects within this investigation, it introduces another element where doubt could creep in.
Personally, I think it is quite a deliberate choice of words and, along with her delivery when making statements, I am reading much more into what and how it has said.

 

[Forest_Wood]

From my viewpoint, those nefarious activities might include but are not limited to:

Researching poisonous DC mushrooms; IE, where to find them, ID them, how to use them
Foraging for poisonous DC mushrooms
Growing DC mushrooms
Transporting toxic substances
Storing toxic DC mushrooms
Dehydrating poisonous DC mushrooms
Inviting targeted guests to dine on a fatally poisoned meal

Thank you for your reply.

Homicide squad Detective Inspector Dean Thomas has said Patterson remained a suspect because she cooked the meals. But he has also said police were still considering an accidental poisoning “not at the hands of somebody else” to be a possibility, alongside a potentially “nefarious activity”.

To me, it seems to be saying two different things.

1. EP is a suspect because she cooked the meal.
2. Police also are considering an accidental poisoning alongside potential nefarious activity. (Not directly referring to her like they referred to her in the first sentence).

I don't know which way to make sense of what they wrote.

 

[Neet_Mc]

There is a huge financial motive in all this and it is only for that reason I question that maybe something more complex has occurred.

Notwithstanding, EP herself would be financially hit if her husband wanted a formal divorce, no doubt he would be entitled to a generous settlement.

I wonder when his parent’s last formalised their Will? Prior to their separation or not.

 

[Neet_Mc]

From the link.

Patterson said her children had attended the movies prior to the lunch and were not in attendance, the ABC reports. She said the children ate the leftovers the following night but because they didn’t like mushrooms she had scraped them off the meal.

After the onset of symptoms, Patterson said she was contacted by the Department of Health and gave what was left of the lunch to hospital toxicologists for examination. She said she told investigators where she bought the mushrooms, but she was unable to identify the specific shop in Melbourne.

…

Kids at leftovers the next nite, scraping mushrooms off, yet she still had leftovers to give to department of health.
???

Leftover’s and more leftover’s.

And a Labrador! I’m convinced there were multiple beef wellingtons.