Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #17

[Fuskier]

If QPS follows this up, am sure they can find out where all these things are. Somebody must have a master map or something similar.

...and whether this master map is available to the scouting association.

 

[Fuskier]

Yes Willough I have just read the history - very freaky. Geocaching is a popular scouting activity and given that someone warned about the murder investigation on 30th April displays some rather unusual commentary given the time that the body was found etc and the limited interest in this particular cache!!!!!! Goose bumps here!!

Worth passing this information on to Police.

 

[Nads]

I wonder if GBC will attend or will he be "incapacitated" somehow?

He might forget to go.

 

[grannie]

If we are still talking on the cars and whether there was evidence or not. A citizens arrest has nothing to do with it. (A citizens arrest usually would occur anyway if when a person sees someone in the act of comitting a crime). But as I said does not apply to this. Making arrest is a whole different thing to getting a conviction for which Police need a watertight case. They are not going to go in there with a half baked case and risk it being thrown out. Police have their own procedures and powers with regards to evidence and warrants and arrests.

If you read the whole text, you will see what's required to make an arrest, in principle. The police make an arrest if they have a reasonable suspicion about the person in question. They do not build a case until all the conclusive evidence has been gathered. It can take forever. A reasonable suspicion is not the complete set of evidence. Most of the arrests on suspicion of murder are made within 48 hrs, statistically.

About the car. Ordinarily, the police can not keep property without an owner's consent, unless obtained as a result of an arrest, under a warrant, or if the property is material evidence needed to prove a crime. If property is seized and the person is later found not guilty, the property is returned.

A warrant for a person's arrest is a written authority from a magistrate or judge. A person arrested on a warrant is taken into custody and must be brought before a court. The police can arrest someone without a warrant and the majority of arrests are made without a warrant. The police can arrest someone without a warrant who (amongst other reasons):
-- is caught committing an offence [Summary Offences Act 1953 s 75]
-- is reasonably suspected of committing an offence or is about to be commit an offence [Summary Offences Act 1953 s 75]

What is a reasonable suspicion?

<<Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard of proof that is less than probable cause, the legal standard for arrests and warrants, but more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch'&#8201;"; it must be based on "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts".>> (wiki)

 

[Keentoknow]

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Joy Kuhl's "foetal blood" in the Chamberlain's car was actually a substance used in the manufacture of that type of vehicle. Talk about a major scientific error.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...indy-chamberlain/story-e6freooo-1225903243401

I know what you are saying. Normally a judge will bend over backwards to have it done.

Whilst at the same time I will say this. From experience I can say that Des Sturgess on cross-examination would reel you in and then you felt like you were in an alligator trap.anic: He is a brillant man.

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/corpo...s/1980s-des-sturgess-a-prosecutor-or-defender

 

[Nads]

In the case of Daniel Morcombe's killer the police had some sort of reasonable suspicion about the man who ended up being arrested. But they didn't tip him off and arrest him (knowing they didn't have enough for a conviction). They instead did an undercover investigation for months to gather enough evidence.

 

[CaseClosed]

Worth passing this information on to Police.

It's been done (including the web link to those comments).

 

[True]

In the case of Daniel Morcombe's killer the police had some sort of reasonable suspicion about the man who ended up being arrested. But they didn't tip him off and arrest him (knowing they didn't have enough for a conviction). They instead did an undercover investigation for months to gather enough evidence.

But Nads, they didn't have much to go on. No vehicle, no relationship between victim and Perp, no body, no murder scene. Nothing really but suspicion. They had to go the miles, they had no choice.

 

[stormbird]

Rainfall information:

Karalee daily rainfall in April 2012 from WeatherZone. Note that measurements are taken at 9:00 am, so might include rainfall anytime after 9:00 am the previous day too. Karalee isn't in the Kholo Creek catchment, but it's close. The flood-warning stations for Colleges Crossing and Mt Crosby would be better (they're on the Brisbane River above Kholo Creek), but I can't find their details.

Lower Brisbane River flood warning network - map of the river and creeks showing locations of weather stations. Note that the Kholo Bridge station is not the bridge on Mt Crosby Rd over Kholo Creek where Allison's body was found.

Queensland flood-warning stations and operating agencies - see Brisbane: Mt Crosby, Colleges Crossing, Karalee.

 

[mum73]

The house was made a crime scene, which tells me a crime was known to have happened at the house. Maybe there was clear evidence that Allison was taken from/or killed at the property (or maybe there was "suggestion" that the Captiva had been driven by someone other than GBC or ABC). I believe police had suspicions on how Allison died even before her body was found, and the evidence was at the house (or in the car). This explains the quick release of the body, as they already knew what they were looking for.

It's also interesting that GBC was already driving someone elses car 2 days after Allison went missing, meaning that he was unable to access his vehicle IMO because police already suspected it was involved. By the 25th they were asking the public about the cars via the media (this was the night after asking questions at the roundabout). I believe they have footage of similar car/s (along with sightings), but no license plates.

IMO its seems illogical to take 2 cars to the dumpsite, unless something went wrong and the 1st car was being towed from the location (this seems improbable though, unless they were able to fix the car by the next morning). I don't believe the Prado was involved (maybe another white 4WD, but I'm starting to think there was no second car). The Prado is just sooo distinctive, especially with those plates and the sticker; and driving in the manner the cars reported were driving...with a body in the car, seems highly improbable.

I think this was done in the Captiva (possibly with other plates on???). The ALLISON (or SETTLED) plates would be far too distinctive to take the risk; but people would be less likely to remember standard plates, therefore the cars seen that night have not been positively identified as belonging to the BC family.

However, having said that, if the info about GBC senior is correct, and he was seen at the roundabout, this IMO indicates a third person (ie someone to drop him at the roundabout). It's interesting though that the BC seniors house is across from the Rafting Ground roundabout. Is it possible it was actually this round about where BC senior was seen? What if he walked there and GBC picked him up, took him back to the house and he was the driver of the second vehicle (really can't see why this would be necessary though???).

 

[Nads]

But Nads, they didn't have much to go on. No vehicle, no relationship between victim and Perp, no body, no murder scene. Nothing really but suspicion. They had to go the miles, they had no choice.

I was just refuting Grannie and her assertion that if police were reasonably suspicious they would arrest the person.

 

[Amee]

If you read the whole text, you will see what's required to make an arrest, in principle. The police make an arrest if they have a reasonable suspicion about the person in question. They do not build a case until all the conclusive evidence has been gathered. It can take forever. A reasonable suspicion is not the complete set of evidence. Most of the arrests on suspicion of murder are made within 48 hrs, statistically.

About the car. Ordinarily, the police can not keep property without an owner's consent, unless obtained as a result of an arrest, under a warrant, or if the property is material evidence needed to prove a crime. If property is seized and the person is later found not guilty, the property is returned.

A warrant for a person's arrest is a written authority from a magistrate or judge. A person arrested on a warrant is taken into custody and must be brought before a court. The police can arrest someone without a warrant and the majority of arrests are made without a warrant. The police can arrest someone without a warrant who (amongst other reasons):
-- is caught committing an offence [Summary Offences Act 1953 s 75]
-- is reasonably suspected of committing an offence or is about to be commit an offence [Summary Offences Act 1953 s 75]

What is a reasonable suspicion?

<<Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard of proof that is less than probable cause, the legal standard for arrests and warrants, but more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch'&#8201;"; it must be based on "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts".>> (wiki)

http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/story/2012/05/28/murder-toxicology-report-out-soon/

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...rs-could-hold-the-key-to-finding-missing-mum/

I have full faith and trust in the QPS.

 

[True]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ret-until-arrest/story-e6freuzr-1226381723800

Pretty brazen to move a C21 office into a place not yet authorized by the franchise. I'd say it might even be a breach of contract. But then again I think if he had to move out of the huge premises he couldn't afford, what else was he suppose to do?

 

[True]

http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/story/2012/05/28/murder-toxicology-report-out-soon/

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...rs-could-hold-the-key-to-finding-missing-mum/

I have full faith and trust in the QPS.

Me too Amee... Me too

 

[stormbird]

I think it's strange that police dogs were unable to find Allison's phone - if police dogs were used in the search, and I think it's reasonable to suppose they were. I can't find any mention of them in news reports, but the Queensland Police dog squad trains their general purpose dogs to search for recently discarded property or evidence.

According to Confirmed: Body found in creek identified as Allison Baden-Clay, Courier Mail, 01 May 2012, the location of the phone had been narrowed down to an area spanning 150 metres. And in Hope turns to heartbreak as search for Allison Baden-Clay's killer begins, Australian, 01 May 2012:

It is understood search crews were told the iPhone would be found in an area believed to be near the two neighbours and the Baden-Clay property itself.

That's not a huge area for dogs to search, and presumably they could have just kept going over it until they found something. So, why could they not find anything? Are there some things dogs just can't find, or might there be other explanations?

 

[Mani]

Some interesting points in this one:
http://s4291163.blogspot.com.au/

That's a well written article that makes some good points. Thanks for posting it.:tyou:

 

[Nads]

I think it's strange that police dogs were unable to find Allison's phone - if police dogs were used in the search, and I think it's reasonable to suppose they were. I can't find any mention of them in news reports, but the Queensland Police dog squad trains their general purpose dogs to search for recently discarded property or evidence.

According to Confirmed: Body found in creek identified as Allison Baden-Clay, Courier Mail, 01 May 2012, the location of the phone had been narrowed down to an area spanning 150 metres. And in Hope turns to heartbreak as search for Allison Baden-Clay's killer begins, Australian, 01 May 2012:


That's not a huge area for dogs to search, and presumably they could have just kept going over it until they found something. So, why could they not find anything? Are there some things dogs just can't find, or might there be other explanations?

I always thought it meant that that area was the last place they got an active signal from. Wouldn't necessarily mean the actual phone would still be there imo.

 

[LauraMars]

I think it's strange that police dogs were unable to find Allison's phone - if police dogs were used in the search, and I think it's reasonable to suppose they were. I can't find any mention of them in news reports, but the Queensland Police dog squad trains their general purpose dogs to search for recently discarded property or evidence.

According to Confirmed: Body found in creek identified as Allison Baden-Clay, Courier Mail, 01 May 2012, the location of the phone had been narrowed down to an area spanning 150 metres. And in Hope turns to heartbreak as search for Allison Baden-Clay's killer begins, Australian, 01 May 2012:


That's not a huge area for dogs to search, and presumably they could have just kept going over it until they found something. So, why could they not find anything? Are there some things dogs just can't find, or might there be other explanations?

I've wondered for a while if police have found the phone, just as they haven't mentioned for ages that they are still searching for it, and they stopped asking the public to still keep an eye out for it.

 

[Mani]

You have just agreed that if the police found something linking the car to the crime scene, it would implicate the owner. This statement works in reverse. If the owner has not been arrested, then the police has nothing biochemical on him found in the car.

Hi Grannie,

Not necessarily. QPS are not releasing the information they have found as they are IMO building a strong case.

 

[True]

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/05/31/1226375/903694-cm-baden-clay-creek.jpg

Here's another view of the bank. Not sure if you guys have seen this. Interesting because it doesnt seem to show a ledge like some of the other photos, more a gradual slope.