Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #4

[UnfoldingTruth]

According to a direct quote from Allisons best friend, the sleepover was due to occur Friday night.

http://www.news.com.au/national/grief-for-lost-daughter/story-e6frfkvr-1226346331460

I read that, she didn't actually say the sleepover was the Friday night. I think the assumption is made by the way it is said. But I questioned when I read it as to whether she meant Thurs day or Friday...here is the part of the article..

Paper states.. She was one of the last to have contact with Mrs Baden-Clay, texting her on the night she disappeared about her plans for the following day.

"That Friday was a busy day for her. She had a full-day conference in town and the kids were having a sleepover that night, so she would have got all her stuff ready,

"I had texted her that day, the Thursday,

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/grief-for-lost-daughter/story-e6frfkvr-1226346331460#ixzz1uA99YWnz

I took it "that night" could have meant Thursday night and she would have time to get her stuff ready for the next day. But who knows what cut and paste editing there may have been?

 

[mouse detective]

THe police decided very early on that the home was a crime scene. One thing I haven't seen anywhere is a discussion about ABC's car keys. Despite there being a report of a missing person and the car not being at home, the keys to the missing car may have been in the home. The last driver of the car may have locked the car and walked home and forgotten to dump the keys or only remembered to dump them at the last moment when close to the home - perhaps this is why the Police believe the phone may be found within 150m of the home.

 

[Neuromancer]

THe police decided very early on that the home was a crime scene. One thing I haven't seen anywhere is a discussion about ABC's car keys. Despite there being a report of a missing person and the car not being at home, the keys to the missing car may have been in the home. The last driver of the car may have locked the car and walked home and forgotten to dump the keys or only remembered to dump them at the last moment when close to the home - perhaps this is why the Police believe the phone may be found within 150m of the home.

Hang on which car was missing? I thought it was said that both cars were home?

 

[Humdinger]

Hang on which car was missing? I thought it was said that both cars were home?

This, I'd not heard about a missing car I don't think.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Presumtion of innocence is fundamental to criminal law in Australia. You are innocent until poven guilty of a crime. The job of police is to gather facts until they believe they can prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

A woman disappears and is found dead a long way from her home 11 days later. Police treat it as an unlawful homicide quite shortly after she disappears because of some information unknown to the public.

The husband of the woman engages legal advice to manage his dealings with police and media. I imagine this is to control any possible trial by media and ensure the police operate professionally within the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle.

What worries me about this forum is the potential impact on the children of the woman. They need to go to school with a lot of interney savvy children who undoubtedly read this forum.

Unsubstantiated speculation seems to become fact and I have great difficulty backtracking in the forum to see where information comes from only to be disappointed that it is baseless.

Just sayin.

Good post. I agree and have tried to say the same..There may be alot of suspicion on one person and I am not saying its not a reasonable assumption based on the info at hand. However WE don't know for sure. And I feel the same for the family as awhole on the impact on some of the statements and and accusations as though its fact.

 

[mouse detective]

Hang on which car was missing? I thought it was said that both cars were home?

I was of the impression from earlier posts that her car was found near the show grounds which is why the Police centred their search from that point.

 

[Berry]

do you know whether this was pre body found or post?

Post Allison being discovered 30 Apr. Photo taken 4 May

 

[minni]

This, I'd not heard about a missing car I don't think.

there is footage of a reporter asking Supt Ainsworth what time the car was returned to the residence, something about 'was the car returned at 11pm', to which Ainsworth replied, it was news to him, he looked totally unaware of what they were asking, in fact they asked twice. this could have begun speculation about the cars not both eing at home....have heard on this thread talk about one of the cars being at the showgrounds, also just sounds like idle gossip

BTW..the footage I am referring to, is when Allison's body is found but not confirmed as hers, if anyone needs me to link it, i will do so

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Rexo posted on 29/4/12 @ 11.15 pm
"More info from locals - When she was reported missing, her car was not at home but was found on the Brookfield showground - about 2 minutes walk away"

I could be wrong, but I am not sure that was ever substantiated(?)

 

[itsthevibe]

There appears to be frustration about posts sometimes. Let me try to explain what is the perfect scenario from a WS point of view.

If someone states something is a fact, there needs to be a link to a mainstream media outlet. For example, if I am to state that the mannequin showed Allison to be wearing a blue shirt, then I need to stick a link on the post: http://www.news.com.au/national/hus...den-clay-goes-on/story-e6frfkvr-1226339293043

This doesn't mean we need a link to every fact every time. But definitely initially and if someone asks for a link because they are unable to locate the fact, then please provide it.

Then there is speculation, which is encouraged to help with clues to solve the case. If someone were to say that the husband looked suspicious because he was looking down when being asked questions during an interview and you feel that means someone is hiding something, then add IMO or MOO to say it is your opinion only.

Then there is wild speculation and rumor. This is when nothing ties in with the case whatsoever. Things like "I don't know if this is Gerard or not, but someone with his name was involved in blah blah back in 2003". In other words, we don't start rumors here.What do you do if someone is starting wild and crazy rumors or stating something is a fact when it isn't? Use the alert button. That's the little red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each post. It goes to the moderators and then we can help you.

:grouphug:

Thanks for that, it's helpful.

So, for example, there was a post in the previous #3 thread (or might have been towards the end of the #2 thread) where someone posted about Gerard, "what if he is gay?" and described a scenario including that he was gay and that there was another man involved, then others picked up on this and there was a lot of wild posting for a few pages about various scenarios with 'the boyfriend". Would that be classified as starting a rumour based on nothing? People have different ideas on what gave them the idea in the first place, so there's a fine line. IMO this goes beyond specualtion - but is there a difference between specualtion and fabrication and how do you define it here?

On the other hand, there have been some people who have come on and posted that they know close friends of Allison, or other people who have been interviewed, and they have posted information about related issues.
This is not posted as fact by others (including me)when they refer to it, but in some cases i have decided i do believe what theyve said because it does seem to have credibility. I've then referred to it in other posts but always stated it is based on what someone said. Examples are - someone posted they knew a hairdresser who worked at the salon Allison went to on the Thursday night, and that all the staff had been interviewed by police. There was some interesting and helpful info provided about Allisons visit to the hairdresser, and to me it sounded very credible and fitted in with the other facts of the case that have actually been reported in the media.


So would the handling of this as i've described be OK - as long as it is qualified? I wouldnt do the same with the 'gay' thing or there was another one where someone said allison might have been drinking, because there is no basis whatsoever for it other than someone more or less, coming up with it for reasons of their own.

Regarding posting links, this is a challenge now. I wish we'd started collecting and storing links on the timeline page from the beginning. It's now very time-consuming to find them every time you raise an issue that has already been accepted and discussed, and links posted multiple times earlier on. At the moment I just state I am sure there was a link, and hope no one asks for it! But if I really had to and someone was disputing what I said, I would search for it.

 

[mouse detective]

I also think that if you look at the image of the white car it looks as though it is not at the home http://www.news.com.au/national/search-to-resume-for-missing-brookfield-woman-allison-baden-clay/story-e6frfkvr-1226337675767

 

[PolyDot]

I just rewatched the police interview when ABC body was found, I think somhow we are missing the obvious. the police or the interviewer states:

"the house is a crime scene" So what is a crime? Would it be a crime scene if there was evidence of a struggle or a fight, e,g upended chairs, tables etc or broken glass, or does a crime scene have to mean that something happened in that area that lead to the outcome of the crime, in this case murder. I believe the crime scene was designated when the investigation was still a missing person case, so there was something in that house that led police to believe some crime had taken place, I suppose it does not necessarily mean it has to be this crime it could be that they found something illegal happening within the house, but I don't hink so. Supt Ainsworth also states that it has a murder investigation for some time - I wonder when the status changed.

The other thinkg he says, is they have conducted on both the cars, so there is obviously something unusual in or about both of the cars, or they know that they were involved in the crime. given that early on it was stated Allison was missing and was last seen at her home it would seem the police have very early in the investigation known that Allison used one or both of the cars on the night she went missing. Considering they were concentrating the search around close to her home in the early days that also is strange.

Something here is not adding up, and I really don't think we will be able to come to an answers, as I feel there is a vital clue regarding the cars, the house and the movement of Allison the police have not released for any number of reasons and without that clue we are floundering.

sounds to me like as we have stated before the murder happened at the house , the car was used to transport her body

 

[willough]

I also think that if you look at the image of the white car it looks as though it is not at the home http://www.news.com.au/national/search-to-resume-for-missing-brookfield-woman-allison-baden-clay/story-e6frfkvr-1226337675767

In the photo it looks as though it is at home, with Nigel Baden Clay's car in the background.....Always thought the word "SHE" written on the path was weird. Nothing to do with the case though...Just me thinking it was weird.

 

[minni]

I also think that if you look at the image of the white car it looks as though it is not at the home http://www.news.com.au/national/search-to-resume-for-missing-brookfield-woman-allison-baden-clay/story-e6frfkvr-1226337675767

not sure, but both images look like someone with a gurney/high pressure hose has been drawing on the ground?

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Thanks for that, it's helpful.

So, for example, there was a post in the previous #3 thread (or might have been towards the end of the #2 thread) where someone posted about Gerard, "what if he is gay?" and described a scenario including that he was gay and that there was another man involved, then others picked up on this and there was a lot of wild posting for a few pages about various scenarios with 'the boyfriend". Would that be classified as starting a rumour based on nothing? People have different ideas on what gave them the idea in the first place, so there's a fine line. IMO this goes beyond specualtion - but is there a difference between specualtion and fabrication and how do you define it here?

On the other hand, there have been some people who have come on and posted that they know close friends of Allison, or other people who have been interviewed, and they have posted information about related issues.
This is not posted as fact by others (including me)when they refer to it, but in some cases i have decided i do believe what theyve said because it does seem to have credibility. I've then referred to it in other posts but always stated it is based on what someone said. Examples are - someone posted they knew a hairdresser who worked at the salon Allison went to on the Thursday night, and that all the staff had been interviewed by police. There was some interesting and helpful info provided about Allisons visit to the hairdresser, and to me it sounded very credible and fitted in with the other facts of the case that have actually been reported in the media.


So would the handling of this as i've described be OK - as long as it is qualified? I wouldnt do the same with the 'gay' thing or there was another one where someone said allison might have been drinking, because there is no basis whatsoever for it other than someone more or less, coming up with it for reasons of their own.

Regarding posting links, this is a challenge now. I wish we'd started collecting and storing links on the timeline page from the beginning. It's now very time-consuming to find them every time you raise an issue that has already been accepted and discussed, and links posted multiple times earlier on. At the moment I just state I am sure there was a link, and hope no one asks for it! But if I really had to and someone was disputing what I said, I would search for it.

I like this post and question, thanks for posting. I think thats what I have tried to get at sometimes. When others come up with a thought that popped into their head(and we all have those)..put it out there and then all of a sudden its fact and all the scenarios come up..I know people nu t things out this way sometimes. But we do have to be careful as this is a public forum.

I always try to qualify with 'ifs' or its just my thought or whatever, if its not substantiated. And tried not to post some stuff that I believe may have basis in fact, but I can not qualify. When this is stuff of a sensitive nature, its a fine line of do I or don't I. It is after all other peoples lives we are talking about.

 

[mouse detective]

there is footage of a reporter asking Supt Ainsworth what time the car was returned to the residence, something about 'was the car returned at 11pm', to which Ainsworth replied, it was news to him, he looked totally unaware of what they were asking, in fact they asked twice. this could have begun speculation about the cars not both eing at home....

I remember that question being asked too Minni - interesting that the reporter asked if the car had gone back to the home at 11pm. Clearly that time frame is significant and the Police knew about CCTV footage of the car or a sighting, at around that time prior to her body being found.

 

[oreily85]

I also think that if you look at the image of the white car it looks as though it is not at the home http://www.news.com.au/national/search-to-resume-for-missing-brookfield-woman-allison-baden-clay/story-e6frfkvr-1226337675767

My god that article is full of contradictions and bits of info Ive never seen again..

1) Since when were they looking for her clothes & shoes?
2)Positive about finding her alive yet set up a crime scene at the home pretty much straight away?
3)Friends claim she suffered depression? I thought only GBC sister decided to announce that?

Confuzzling...

 

[Nads]

On the deleted Century 21 website it said that Elaine Baden-Clay wanted to write her memoirs one day because she'd had such an interesting life. I am imagining her jotting down notes atm.

 

[coolcat]

Presumtion of innocence is fundamental to criminal law in Australia. You are innocent until poven guilty of a crime. The job of police is to gather facts until they believe they can prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

A woman disappears and is found dead a long way from her home 11 days later. Police treat it as an unlawful homicide quite shortly after she disappears because of some information unknown to the public.

The husband of the woman engages legal advice to manage his dealings with police and media. I imagine this is to control any possible trial by media and ensure the police operate professionally within the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle.

What worries me about this forum is the potential impact on the children of the woman. They need to go to school with a lot of interney savvy children who undoubtedly read this forum.

Unsubstantiated speculation seems to become fact and I have great difficulty backtracking in the forum to see where information comes from only to be disappointed that it is baseless.

Just sayin.

This has been a very repetetive comment and it is starting to really annoy me.....None of us are Proffessional Investigators or Police ( At least no one as yet has claimed to be) none of us have all the facts and none of us are close personal friends of the parties involved ( Only Friends of friends and Hairdressers...lol) All off us have speculated on what we have seen on this site and other sites...With all of the info on here it really is hard to determine fact from fiction but realistically who knows what the actual facts are other then- a body was found and identified as Allison Baden Clay.

If we knew "all" of the facts then the case would be solved clearly....I hought the point of this site was to nut out possible scenario's speak about current media reports and also Police reports and come up with possible motives??

None of us are being paid and we are unlikley to solve anything or make an arrest ourselves....So chill out and skip what you don't want to read and make notes of the things that seem important to you.

I am finding every little bit interesting except for the comments like yours that are intended to make people feel guilty for posting?

I don't want to have to sit at my computer and think about whether or not you enjoy my post or will be enlightened by it.

We all have the right for an opinion and if you dispute the opinion then say why and move on.

 

[Zorro]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ng-in-brookfield/story-e6freoof-1226335681703

"They confirmed that Gerard Baden-Clay, the husband of the missing woman and the father of her three girls, was a person of interest in the investigation along with a number of people close to the couple."