Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #10

[CSK?]

I believe that WAPOL had enough evidence to arrest BE without any DNA evidence. Familial DNA is very contentious and I haven't been able to find any Australian cases where a defendant was convicted on familial DNA. If you read the articles discussing familial DNA you will see that it is a controversial area with only a couple of states in the USA that have accepted it.

In Australia, the general principle is that DNA can only be taken if there is a reasonable suspicion of offending, or if a person volunteers their DNA. This is because Australia has an expectation of privacy and that the government can only take our personal information under certain circumstances. The ability to obtain familial DNA to then link a person to certain crimes encroaches on that privacy.

If a judge finds that the DNA was not lawfully obtained, then it could be excluded, as will all evidence obtained as a result of the DNA match. In my opinion it would be very risky for WAPOL to arrest someone based on familial DNA, because it is such a controversial area. It would be disastrous for everybody if BE was arrested and charged based on unlawfully obtained evidence and he is then acquitted because the evidence is excluded.

One day familial DNA will be tested in an Australian court and a judge will make a decision about whether it is admissible. I just think that running this argument on an accused serial killer is too big a risk.

All just my opinion.

I am of the opinion they did use familial DNA, But here is the thing.... They won't be using the familial DNA in court, there won't be a risk of claiming it was unlawfully obtained, the familial DNA was simple a means for WAPOL to see if they were onto the right guy or not, the lawful DNA sample they took while BE was in custody is the sample that will be used in court.


The breakthrough was the Huntingdale attack, unless BE was the only suspect/poi or name associated with that case then it is absolutely likely they used familial DNA to determine which on the of names related to that case was the CSK. BRE was the only person arrested in relation to being the CSK so either they had DNA to direct them towards him or his name was the only name on file in respect to the Huntingdale attack case.

 

[Greysp]

Attempted murder is an incredibly difficult charge to prove. Police charge it a lot but it nearly always gets reduced to a lesser charge

This arrest looks to me like WAPOL had solid legal advice to guide it, to provide the best chance of evidence being admitted during a trial (which is why I don't like the familial DNA story). The legal advice would have been to only charge what is likely to be able to be proved; ie, not attempted murder.

Familial DNA is only investigative. It won't be used in a conviction if they have a match, which they would definitely after they swabbed him. That's what people don't understand.

My guess is they had his DNA. But it's standard procedure to get a DNA hit linked to that particular case. For completion and surety.



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[CSK?]

Has there been previous discussion in here on the "Dr ******" posts (2006) re the CSK and Madora Bay and Gosnells references?

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...an/comments/uk_link_in_wa_serial_murders/P25/
page 2/5 of the comments

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It really is worth reading all five of the comments pages related to the above article.

****** posted on every single CSK related thread online and continued his BS claims on a dozen more that had nothing to do with the CSK (EG foot fetish websites, recipe website) in his thousands of posts over the last 10 - 12 years I'm sure if you dig deep enough you will find in some form or another he has prob almost mentioned every major suburb of Perth at one point or another.

 

[Greysp]

maybe the Karrakatta victim had mistaken a holden stationwagon as a panel van or commercial van it would have been quite dark in Rowe Park. she was quite young and it is possible her vehicle knowledge was not perfect. Given the horrendous crime committed upon her I have no doubts she would have been severely traumatized.

Hey wait the VS series 1 was not released until April 1995 right. So it is highly likely BRE had access to another telstra vehicle prior to the VS series 1 and that may have been one of those courier type vehicles with either a side opening to access rear or rear opening doors and she has mistaken this van for a panelvan. Did Tesltra have panelvans in their fleet prior to Feb 1995 ?

BRE hardly seems the 'type' to me to personally own a panelvan.

I remember reading she heard a car door slide closed.

They will ge investigating every car, every holiday destination, every computer link etc etc. Standard procedure. Lots of work. Fingers crossed for them all.

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[Greysp]

maybe the Karrakatta victim had mistaken a holden stationwagon as a panel van or commercial van it would have been quite dark in Rowe Park. she was quite young and it is possible her vehicle knowledge was not perfect. Given the horrendous crime committed upon her I have no doubts she would have been severely traumatized.

Hey wait the VS series 1 was not released until April 1995 right. So it is highly likely BRE had access to another telstra vehicle prior to the VS series 1 and that may have been one of those courier type vehicles with either a side opening to access rear or rear opening doors and she has mistaken this van for a panelvan. Did Tesltra have panelvans in their fleet prior to Feb 1995 ?

BRE hardly seems the 'type' to me to personally own a panelvan.

It's weird that he owned his own vehicle as a work car. Was he sub contracting or did I read wrong

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[Greysp]

I believe that WAPOL had enough evidence to arrest BE without any DNA evidence. Familial DNA is very contentious and I haven't been able to find any Australian cases where a defendant was convicted on familial DNA. If you read the articles discussing familial DNA you will see that it is a controversial area with only a couple of states in the USA that have accepted it.

In Australia, the general principle is that DNA can only be taken if there is a reasonable suspicion of offending, or if a person volunteers their DNA. This is because Australia has an expectation of privacy and that the government can only take our personal information under certain circumstances. The ability to obtain familial DNA to then link a person to certain crimes encroaches on that privacy.

If a judge finds that the DNA was not lawfully obtained, then it could be excluded, as will all evidence obtained as a result of the DNA match. In my opinion it would be very risky for WAPOL to arrest someone based on familial DNA, because it is such a controversial area. It would be disastrous for everybody if BE was arrested and charged based on unlawfully obtained evidence and he is then acquitted because the evidence is excluded.

One day familial DNA will be tested in an Australian court and a judge will make a decision about whether it is admissible. I just think that running this argument on an accused serial killer is too big a risk.

All just my opinion.

That's exactly why they take it once they've arrested him.

There was a serial rapist in thornlie who had been dl found by familial DNA. I remember he was an aboriginal guy who lived on Menzies place.

Once he us found and his DNA linked, familial match doesn't even come into it.

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[Shinboner]

maybe the Karrakatta victim had mistaken a holden stationwagon as a panel van or commercial van it would have been quite dark in Rowe Park. she was quite young and it is possible her vehicle knowledge was not perfect. Given the horrendous crime committed upon her I have no doubts she would have been severely traumatized.

Hey wait the VS series 1 was not released until April 1995 right. So it is highly likely BRE had access to another telstra vehicle prior to the VS series 1 and that may have been one of those courier type vehicles with either a side opening to access rear or rear opening doors and she has mistaken this van for a panelvan. Did Tesltra have panelvans in their fleet prior to Feb 1995 ?

BRE hardly seems the 'type' to me to personally own a panelvan.

My partner was actually working at a Perth Ford dealership around this time, and is certain that Telecom (as they were called) had a large fleet of Econovan vehicles, and more interestingly they also had a large fleet of XF Falcon Panelvans, which were used by their technicians. These vehicles were all serviced at the dealership as part of the warranty service schedules, and usually traded once out of warranty. The XF Panelvans were in production from 1984 - 1993. The Econovans have been in production longer from about 1983 onwards. These Telecom vehicles were white with both magnetic and stick-on Telecom decals.

 

[Greysp]

+ i guess the media are on controlled lockdown - the cops have had the car for two weeks and a) we didnt know it about it here b) press didn't know or told not to publish

Any way to understand what other activity occurred on those dates (police public records) etc.

For someone with knowledge - Can DNA sustain 20 years in an active environment (inside of a car)

He either slipped up or got dobbed in IMO!

Yes. It can. Say there was a large blood stain that seeped through the lining of the car. Once pulled up you can get DNA. I don't think he'd let that happen. That would be hard to clean quickly. But if she was placed in the boot it would make sense to have so many fibres on her body .

Factors affecting the DNA .... direct exposure to intense heat/sunlight. Chemical agents like bleach. But the stain will still be picked up by luminol.

I doubt any new owner will be ripping up lining so fingers crossed.

Hairs will be harder to clean. And maybe one with a root will be stuck in the fabric.

Imo

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[Jackpot]

For police to tap phones i assume they would use a telstra tech to access data. Could BRE of been monitoring phone calls before taking the girls? After when listening in on detectives? I would imagine he would have access to do this?

 

[Greysp]

My theory is it will all fall together if and when they find his trophies. Fingers crossed

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[Look4Clues]

If I was in my 20's, having trouble getting a taxi home at that time of night, tired after a night out and was offered a lift in a new Holden station wagon, I am pretty sure I would have assumed the person driving the station wagon and offering me a lift home would be a family man, therefore most likely a safe bet. Also, if he was charming, well groomed, came across as helpful, intelligent and spoke well then I would also assume he lived in the area. Much easier to con a young girl when you present yourself well and as a man driving a family car, rather than someone who drives an old bomb and looks like they don't belong in the area.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

That's exactly why they take it once they've arrested him.

There was a serial rapist in thornlie who had been dl found by familial DNA. I remember he was an aboriginal guy who lived on Menzies place.

Once he us found and his DNA linked, familial match doesn't even come into it.

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My concern is if they only reason they came across BE as a suspect was through familial DNA, and a court finds that police cannot lawfully use familial DNA, then everything obtained as a result of the familial DNA can be excluded. This is called "fruit of the poisoned tree". If that happens, and the only reason WAPOL have BE is because of the familial DNA link, then everything would be out, including the susquent DNA match, search of his house, vehicle etc.

If however, BE was already a suspect and the DNA link (either familial or exact) was just to confirm their suspicions, then I don't think this would be an issue because, in theory, as BE was already a suspect, WAPOL could have had a legal basis to obtain his DNA.

I think that BE's first defence will be to challenge the admissibility of the DNA match. If a court finds that the use of DNA was unlawful, then the judge had a discretion to exclude all evidence following on from the use of that DNA. The judge has a balance what is in the "interests of justice".

All my opinion.

 

[Shinboner]

Right or wrong at the end of the day I guess my theory is more that for the sake of maybe worst case $20,000 it wouldn't be the worst idea to have a good hard look at this area. I know if I were D&C S I would appreciate the effort and I reckon the taxpayer would see it was one of the more meritorious wastes of taxpayer funds if it proved fruitless.

Obviously if anyone else has any solid ideas of potential (ideally low search cost) locations throw them out there.

It just seems a little unfair to me that 2 families might be on the verge of seeing justice and one gets left behind.

But bedtime for me. Keep at it team.

http://www.tsogpss.co.uk.gridhosted.co.uk/auslinks.htm

Grok first mentioned the GPS coordinates listed on a UK GPS enthusiasts website, posted by a BE in Perth. May or may not be the same person currently in custody. Some other Webslueths then posted giving the coordinates as Gay st Huntingdale.
Being a fisherman, I'm sure BRE would have had a GPS.
Just like yoillsolveit posted, the first thing I noticed looking in this area is the swamp/bush just across the road.

 

[papertrail]

My partner was actually working at a Perth Ford dealership around this time, and is certain that Telecom (as they were called) had a large fleet of Econovan vehicles, and more interestingly they also had a large fleet of XF Falcon Panelvans, which were used by their technicians. These vehicles were all serviced at the dealership as part of the warranty service schedules, and usually traded once out of warranty. The XF Panelvans were in production from 1984 - 1993. The Econovans have been in production longer from about 1983 onwards. These Telecom vehicles were white with both magnetic and stick-on Telecom decals.

Thankyou for this information. I had in the back of my mind seeing Telstra vehicles around that time that looked like Econovans. and did they have a rear step like one of these http://www.uteworld.com.au/Telstra-Type-Rear-Bars--Rear-Step-to-suit-Ford-Econovan.html

Aaah the things you find on google a Telstra 1995 commercial featuring what we are discussing !
[video=youtube;gsskG1adcdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsskG1adcdI[/video]

 

[papertrail]

whole pile of historic telstra ads here

[video=youtube;gsskG1adcdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsskG1adcdI[/video]

 

[BReVeTTe]

one thing that has got my interest is : isn't the Robyn Santen coronial inquest commencing on 25 January and isn't that the same day the BRE has an appearance in the judicial system ?

i'd still like to see Robyn Santen's disappearance listed on our BREtimeline, as the timeline has already included other incidents for which there is currently no direct link to BRE.


[emoji887]

 

[The Weaver]

A matter of weeks......

Got to wonder what made him appear on the radar.........this is still a missing piece for me, we can assume it wasnt the vehicle...

Highgate 2002 Con Bayens. No doubt in my mind

 

[papertrail]

memory jogger for what these econovans looked like

http://www.autotrader.com.au/cars/ford/econovan

 

[Candaceny1]

If I was in my 20's, having trouble getting a taxi home at that time of night, tired after a night out and was offered a lift in a new Holden station wagon, I am pretty sure I would have assumed the person driving the station wagon and offering me a lift home would be a family man, therefore most likely a safe bet. Also, if he was charming, well groomed, came across as helpful, intelligent and spoke well then I would also assume he lived in the area. Much easier to con a young girl when you present yourself well and as a man driving a family car, rather than someone who drives an old bomb and looks like they don't belong in the area.

What if the car had a baby/toddler seat in it? The SD would have been 1-2 years old at the time

 

[The Weaver]

Thoughts on how the found the car? Would they have gone to Telstra asking for records? Or perhaps matched it to him via speeding fine, keeping it all in house.

There would have been Fleet Usage Records. It would have been simple to establish via Telstra records the VIN of the vehicles he used then simply track the vehicle history after disposal. Just dead lucky that the thing (21 years old) didnt finish up in a crusher