Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #10

[The Weaver]

If BE is responsible for SS (which I believe he is) I believe he changed dump method just based on the high profile hype the case made at the time.

Made too much effort to conceal her....so with subsequent murders (with still being meticulous) chose to leave body remote but still possible to find....was probably curious and got off sexually hearing the media reports that a body or two had been found this time.....It all added to his depraved fantasy...

Agree absolutely. The media hype and WAPOL's focus on other POI's would have excited him greatly. The thought that he was much too clever to be caught would have emboldened him.

 

[Moustachio]

Agree.

As to the suggestion they have had BE on their list of possible suspects, I doubt it because according to the reports they have spoken with EE 'several times' THIS WEEK past. I would have thought if BE was on their list they would already have asked his wife at the time his whereabouts on the nights the victims disappeared.

And if so, not a very encouraging indication that WAPOL have improved.

I think his DNA was found on CG hence the charge of murder

 

[Bronson]

I have to agree. Obviously the KK attack was different, but the other abductions must have been done by winning the trust of the girls in some fashion. I still believe that he has impersonated a cop or something similar. Its hard to imagine the girls willingly climbing into a car with a total stranger. The KK attack was a messy and clumsy attack. He clearly refined his methods. The thought that he could violently force a young woman into his car in a busy nightclub area with the potential for witnesses/intervention is (to me) implausible. This bloke was clever in what he did. I also still believe that he was linked to his alleged offences via review of past intel, particularly the Bayens Highgate interception in 2002. The reports I have read suggest that his DNA was matched to the '88 matter, the KK rape and CG AFTER he was arrested. WAPOL got a lucky break with this bloke. In saying that, I think its also likely that a friend/relative has alerted WAPOL about him which added to the profile they were building on him

What I dont understand is that they are saying only since the Kimono was recently tested have they linked the DNA of the KK case with it and CG. Why wasn't a DNA link made between the KK case and CG previous to this? Did WAPOL just not look??

 

[Moustachio]

Agree. I doubt any self-respecting serial killer would abduct his victims using a work car, with 'Telecom' on the side, and which was GPS'd.

Also, I don't buy the 'mastermind' theme of the CSK: To have 2/3 (at least) bodies actually discovered, in a State like WA, is either laziness or hastiness. This was not thought through. Probability is that it was a fairly spontaneous thing -he hadn't.t thought through what he was going to do after. It was primarily a sex attack, and the victims were murdered to obviate identification ...

This theory, and similar versions of it, have been well explored in earlier versions of this thread.

I'm not a big fan of it, even though it sounds quite plausible. In at least one of the abductions, the victim actually did make a call, from a pay phone, to a taxi which turned up 8 minutes later to collect her. But she'd vanished.

I think risking being seen like that would have been too much for him. There were places to hide for a blitz, and other ways to coerce one into a vehicle, rather than posing as being 'on the job'. If a work mate had seen him, would have been game over. Just my opinion.

EDIT: I think the theory you mention could have worked in a more remote location, but not for the girls who were abducted so shortly after leaving CBV.

 

[CP345]

What I dont understand is that they are saying only since the Kimono was recently tested have they linked the DNA of the KK case with it and CG. Why wasn't a DNA link made between the KK case and CG previous to this? Did WAPOL just not look??

While I don't doubt that the police have made mistakes in the past I can't understand why people can't accept the perfectly logical sequence of events that they laid out to explain how they made the connection between the crimes. There is a massive amount of evidence sitting in storage which has never been tested. Even though we've had DNA testing for some time now it was slow and also expensive. Police could not possibly have been expected to test the backlog of evidence for crimes in the last 30 or so years. As the testing has become more affordable and quicker the police have had been making an effort to test old evidence in order to close cold cases. As such, after sitting there since 1988 the kimono was tested and police got lucky. They found a match which opened further investigative opportunities. If they found the person who climbed in the window that night in 1988 in huntingdale they had the killer. Now we can all summise and guess how they linked BE to this crime but it would have been a relatively small suspect pool. Maybe they suspected him but had no evidence until the DNA. Quite possibly he'd been sprung in the area as a juvenile taking knickers off a clothes line and given a slap on the wrist but had no official record. Maybe he was known in local circles as being a weirdo and after all these years when someone was questioned about the attack they dropped his name. Unless someone in the know posts here I guess we will find out in court.

The connection between the KK and CG case was made much later too as DNA testing methods improved. They worked hard to solve the KK case for the same reason with a team of 12 but couldn't crack it.

 

[The Weaver]

What I dont understand is that they are saying only since the Kimono was recently tested have they linked the DNA of the KK case with it and CG. Why wasn't a DNA link made between the KK case and CG previous to this? Did WAPOL just not look??

I suspect improvements in DNA testing technology may have played a part in this. I believe that certain samples were stored pending refinement of testing methods. Earlier testing methods tended to destroy samples

 

[The Weaver]

While I don't doubt that the police have made mistakes in the past I can't understand why people can't accept the perfectly logical sequence of events that they laid out to explain how they made the connection between the crimes. There is a massive amount of evidence sitting in storage which has never been tested. Even though we've had DNA testing for some time now it was slow and also expensive. Police could not possibly have been expected to test the backlog of evidence for crimes in the last 30 or so years. As the testing has become more affordable and quicker the police have had been making an effort to test old evidence in order to close cold cases. As such, after sitting there since 1988 the kimono was tested and police got lucky. They found a match which opened further investigative opportunities. If they found the person who climbed in the window that night in 1988 in huntingdale they had the killer. Now we can all summise and guess how they linked BE to this crime but it would have been a relatively small suspect pool. Maybe they suspected him but had no evidence until the DNA. Quite possibly he'd been sprung in the area as a juvenile taking knickers off a clothes line and given a slap on the wrist but had no official record. Maybe he was known in local circles as being a weirdo and after all these years when someone was questioned about the attack they dropped his name. Unless someone in the know posts here I guess we will find out in court.

Spot on!

 

[Moustachio]

DNA is no fait accompli. It can be challenged, and often is successfully. Frequently, it never even gets to the jury.

So... suggesting things like other suspects push for reasonable doubt is reasonably pointless you would suggest if you are the one with the DNA on the vid? Yet people on here keep doing it.

If the jury accepts the DNA evidence and its handling BRE is up **** creek.
Unless he can explain why his DNA is on the victims, assuming he tries to plead consensual there are two living victims to suggest otherwise.

The only way BRE is getting out of this is if he can take the DNA evidence off the table, as DNA evidence on living and deceased victims take the reasonable doubt out of the equation IMO.

His best bet would be to try to suggest the media have already suggested he is guilty and that he couldn't possibly get a fair jury trial, then push for legal technicalities on evidence handling that a judge can't ignore as reasonable doubt.

 

[AgathasCat]

What I dont understand is that they are saying only since the Kimono was recently tested have they linked the DNA of the KK case with it and CG. Why wasn't a DNA link made between the KK case and CG previous to this? Did WAPOL just not look??

That link was made in October 2015. I find timelines very helpful. The dates I've used are the publication dates of the stories attached, presumably actual matches were made by police in months leading up to that before notice to media.

1997 KIERA GLENNON
DNA evidence from crime scene, retested over time as DNA technology advanced and database expanded?
No match in NCIDD until...

2015 OCTOBER
1995 Karrakatta Cemetery rape linked to CSK
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/police-link-dna-evidence-from-unsolved-1995-rape-to-claremont-serial-killer/news-story/892372bf2e7886119c85f1860924685a

2016 DECEMBER
Kimono DNA from 1988 break & enter/attempted rape matched to CSK "a few months before"
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...e/news-story/d5498c5d0593771d7f526f90646d52f0

A lot of work behind the scenes to finally get three linked crimes, clear progression, two living witnesses, huge expansion of suspect profile.

 

[b4u]

the perfectly logical sequence of events that they laid out to explain how they made the connection between the crimes.

Who laid out? Who is "they"?

The media in unverified by the police assertions by the media?; or
actual official Police statements, written or verbal that anyone on here would kindly care to link us all to in a follow up post thanks.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but maybe I've missed something here?

 

[b4u]

The dates I've used are the publication dates of the stories attached

They are stories. They are not yet facts.

No one has yet presented clear evidence that these stories and claims have been verified or denied by official Police sources.
Just saying.

 

[b4u]

His best bet would be to try to suggest the media have already suggested he is guilty and that he couldn't possibly get a fair jury trial, then push for legal technicalities on evidence handling that a judge can't ignore as reasonable doubt.

Very good point.

 

[Dragun]

Sorry if this is old news - I just can't seem to catch up on my reading all the posts.

Monday's West Can You Help? section:

Can someone do the math? not my strong suit.

And I made this map just for my own curiosity re KT

 

[CSK?]

In regards to SS I think either buried or dumped but not found are the most likely scenarios. If JR had been dumped another 10m from where she was it is possible that she too may have never of been found it was only by chance that the lady picking flowers stumbled across her.

In regards to why BE has not been charged for the abduction/murder of SS it's simply because without a body and DNA evidence the case is harder to make, it is pointless pursuing a conviction on a case you're likely to lose via lack of evidence.I don't think it has anything to do with SS having been killed by another person other than the CSK.

 

[Bohemian]

If that was the case, you'd think that he would have tried this ploy (unsuccessfully) on other women somewhere in WA over the years.

If this is the case, maybe there will some surprise witnesses who he unsuccessfully tried this on, produced in court against him.

Without using false number plates and some form of disguise, abduction using a car on the main road would seem to be incredibly risky.

Still incredibly risky even at night time, that someone might witness the event.

This theory, and similar versions of it, have been well explored in earlier versions of this thread.

I'm not a big fan of it, even though it sounds quite plausible. In at least one of the abductions, the victim actually did make a call, from a pay phone, to a taxi which turned up 8 minutes later to collect her. But she'd vanished.

I think risking being seen like that would have been too much for him. There were places to hide for a blitz, and other ways to coerce one into a vehicle, rather than posing as being 'on the job'. If a work mate had seen him, would have been game over. Just my opinion.

EDIT: I think the theory you mention could have worked in a more remote location, but not for the girls who were abducted so shortly after leaving CBV.

Thanks for your replies, b4u and Sherlock. Even though the means by which the alleged CSK was able to abduct his alleged victims, God Rest their souls, still trouble me, they are now academic I suppose. I will be interested to read the reports of the evidence given at trial by the CSK's only known surviving victim, if she is called for the Prosecution. No doubt, giving evidence will be traumatic for her.

 

[The Weaver]

Thanks for your replies, b4u and Sherlock. Even though the means by which the alleged CSK was able to abduct his alleged victims, God Rest their souls, still trouble me, they are now academic I suppose. I will be interested to read the reports of the evidence given at trial by the CSK's only known surviving victim, if she is called for the Prosecution. No doubt, giving evidence will be traumatic for her.

I was only just sitting here thinking about how the KK victim must feel, knowing that she was incredibly fortunate to have survived the attack by the person now accused of the murders of 2 other girls. I hope she is surrounded by loving, caring people to help her get through what is certainly going to be an awful time having to relive this horror. Its a really crappy world sometimes

 

[Bohemian]

I was only just sitting here thinking about how the KK victim must feel, knowing that she was incredibly fortunate to have survived the attack by the person now accused of the murders of 2 other girls. I hope she is surrounded by loving, caring people to help her get through what is certainly going to be an awful time having to relive this horror. Its a really crappy world sometimes

Amen Weaver x

 

[123sniff]

Amen Weaver x

I remember reading an article where KK described her group of friends taking her out to their car in the car park & leaving her there because she was too drunk. She then remembers sobering up quickly when she's being groped by her abductor as he's driving her in his van to the rape location. This leans towards CSK either lurking inside the clubs or around the car parks. Otherwise how would he have known KK was passed out in a parked car?


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[firestarter]

I remember reading an article where KK described her group of friends taking her out to their car in the car park & leaving her there because she was too drunk. She then remembers sobering up quickly when she's being groped by her abductor as he's driving her in his van to the rape location. This leans towards CSK either lurking inside the clubs or around the car parks. Otherwise how would he have known KK was passed out in a parked car?


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I think you have mashed two events into one there.


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[rati0nal]

Anyone got an old street directory of Perth around that time?

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You don't need a UBD, landgate's aerial photos website shows you aerial photos/maps all the way back to the 1950s. You'll need to use it in internet explorer though, as it requires Java.