Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #18

[meticulously]

Could the Fiat have been a convertible? There doesnt appear to me to be evidence of flattened roof. Anyhow fiat ended up in Ocean rear bum seat bops out and is discovered in cott surf on 20th. Ranger contacts police who realise seat belongs to fiat model owned by JC. Subsequent search at cottesloe locate bottom floundering vehicle. If seat was found south of groyne perhaps the rips in area carried it there. Well known rips around groyne.

Hi Papertrail, Welcome back to WS posting ! [emoji438]

Quote T "Ranger contacts police who realise seat belongs to fiat model owned by JC."

________________________________

Do you think that is what happened ?

Police would not have any idea whose seat it was, until JC was reported missing .
Was the seat actually given to police on the 20th ?
It was found on the same day JC disappeared on the mon 20th (just south of groyne apparently).

 

[Canning Vale]

With regard to the Parmelia Hotel and its vicinity. Prior to the Bus Port, Perth Convention & Exhibition Centre and Elizabeth Quays were built, I think that entire area was a huge car park.

This video shows a car park at .43 and .46. Titled 'Lost Perth from Mounts Bay Rd to the Narrows' https://youtu.be/L5HsGtf2llg?t=46

Initially, the land on the foreshore was where the White City amusement park was located. It looks like, once that was demolished it became the Barrack St Jetty area.

http://watvhistory.com/2012/10/a-time-when-ugly-men-worked-for-charity/ For images scroll down about 1/3.

 

[WWW&H]

Hi Papertrail, Welcome back to WS posting ! [emoji438]

Quote T "Ranger contacts police who realise seat belongs to fiat model owned by JC."

________________________________

Do you think that is what happened ?

Police would not have any idea whose seat it was, until JC was reported missing .
Was the seat actually given to police on the 20th ?
It was found on the same day JC disappeared on the mon 20th (just south of groyne apparently).

When was Julie actually reported missing and by whom. I can't recall. Or is it a case of vehicle found 1st then it was realised Julie was missing.

 

[Bunnie]

My thoughts on seat found south side, car found north side of the groyne.

Scenario 1) car and seat go into the water together north side of the groyn either very close groyne or off the end of the groyne itself. Seat floats initially and surf action + initial seat boyancy works seat out of open window. Seat floats, swirling surface wave action close to groyne sucks seat out then around the groyne. It then starts getting water logged and eventually ways in with dumping beach waves north of groyne. Meanwhile, car sinks, rolls around with the washing machine effects of the swirling water near groyne, cops a battering on the rocks and tides and surf rolls it around until it eventually washes close enough to shore to be seen in the water.

Scenario 2) seat was tossed off the groyne on the 20th. Car was dumped at a later date after seat was found to make it look like a suicide.

Scenario 1 is my preferred option, not due to charts, weather, experts, crystal balls or psychic hunches. It just seems the easiest explanation.

Someone mentioned the water was lot by floodlights? No. The groyne was lit by lights back then but it did not illuminate the water at all. It was basically so fishermen didn't fall off the groyne in the dark. And i am not certain the lights stayed lit all night or turned off at 1am like the regular street lights used to do.

 

[Innerchild]

So you maintain that someone? threw the seat into the ocean at some point then returned at a later date to place the car into the ocean? Clearly not a master criminal at work here. As for the lights being on.....I think you need to accept that the switch was on. This doesn't mean the lights were illuminated. You paint a picture of the car bobbing around in the water with lights blazing. The reality is that the thing was underwater, in darkness and not visible to beach users.

Interesting you say that. I don't think the Fiat was bobbing around in the water, but the last news report painted a picture of it floating in the surf, saying it was found with its lights on.

This should be an accurate report as it was printed 19 days after the event and had time to get the facts correct and investigate IMO (unless there were inaccurate details they deliberately wanted to print).

I definitely think after talking to eyewitness who saw it in the water that it had it's lights on when it was found. There was never any doubt as told to me, from anyone using the beach every day in June 1988 that the Fiat was there for longer than a few hours. That is my opinion and from my experience from using the beach every morning for two years.

There were floodlights on the groyne and from memory did illuminate water for night surfing as well as fisherman. Even in winter many used the beach and article on the "Bobbies" is interesting as an example of a group of older woman who swam every day at Cott. Those two groups (PG's as well) alone swam or bobbed mid beach 35 to 50 m out and would have tripped over the car if it had been there.

The West Australian July 8th 1988 Bizarre Case that has detectives stumped

…19 days after Miss Cutler was last seen detectives admit they have no clue to the Fremantle brunette’s mysterious disappearance…

Her two tone 1968 Fiat 125 was found two days later floating in the surf at Cottesloe beach. ...

Detectives do not know the route taken by the Fiat sedan when it left the hotel.

They only know it was found at Cottesloe beach two days later, floating in the surf with the ignition and lights turned on, the driver’s window down and the driver’s door open…

 

[petedavo.au]

My thoughts on seat found south side, car found north side of the groyne.

Scenario 1) car and seat go into the water together north side of the groyn either very close groyne or off the end of the groyne itself. Seat floats initially and surf action + initial seat boyancy works seat out of open window. Seat floats, swirling surface wave action close to groyne sucks seat out then around the groyne. It then starts getting water logged and eventually ways in with dumping beach waves north of groyne. Meanwhile, car sinks, rolls around with the washing machine effects of the swirling water near groyne, cops a battering on the rocks and tides and surf rolls it around until it eventually washes close enough to shore to be seen in the water.

Scenario 2) seat was tossed off the groyne on the 20th. Car was dumped at a later date after seat was found to make it look like a suicide.

Scenario 1 is my preferred option, not due to charts, weather, experts, crystal balls or psychic hunches. It just seems the easiest explanation.

Someone mentioned the water was lot by floodlights? No. The groyne was lit by lights back then but it did not illuminate the water at all. It was basically so fishermen didn't fall off the groyne in the dark. And i am not certain the lights stayed lit all night or turned off at 1am like the regular street lights used to do.

I used to go to the hamburger caravan on Marine parade in 1986. There were no lights on at the beach at night that I remember. No patrols after 5pm. And basically no one at the beach in winter. There was only a kiosk which only opened on the weekends in summer. Local ranger didn't patrol the beach, only the surf lifesavers did, and only in summer.

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[Bunnie]

I used to go to the hamburger caravan on Marine parade in 1986. There were no lights on at the beach at night that I remember. No patrols after 5pm. And basically no one at the beach in winter. There was only a kiosk which only opened on the weekends in summer. Local ranger didn't patrol the beach, only the surf lifesavers did, and only in summer.

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That's what I remember too. The groyne had basic lights on it that were weak and only were there for fishing safety. There were no lights at the beach and definitely NOT floodlit for night surfing. Not sure where that idea had come from.

In winter even if you used the beach every day you would not be able to see what was lurking in the darker waters until it came cost to shore. That is how the fatal shark attacks have happened at Cott. The victims could not see the 5 metre sharks in the water.

After dark there was nothing open on the beach itself. It was creepy and dark. Like all beaches in Perth in the 80s.

 

[Innerchild]

Could the Fiat have been a convertible? There doesnt appear to me to be evidence of flattened roof. Anyhow fiat ended up in Ocean rear bum seat bops out and is discovered in cott surf on 20th. Ranger contacts police who realise seat belongs to fiat model owned by JC. Subsequent search at cottesloe locate bottom floundering vehicle. If seat was found south of groyne perhaps the rips in area carried it there. Well known rips around groyne.

1968 Fiat 125 sedan from the last report. The crush damage to roof was almost like it was totally removed. Report says the damage was caused by rocks on the groyne. It could have said damage occurred being winched in but doesn't. Forces being winched would be from front to back not applied directly to roof IMO.

The seat wold have got caught against the groyne, like the floor mat did and not travel south on the currents unless it was released further out to sea than the groyne, or from groyne. Just my opinion.

Car in the Surf Mystery Deepens MondayJune 27 ...The roof of the medium sized Sedan, a Fiat 125 about 18 years old had been caved in by being pushed against the rocks at Cottesloe Groyne....Divers on Friday received a floormat thought to have come from the boot of the Fiat. It was found next to the groyne.

Source: Daily News Thursday June 30[SUP]th[/SUP] 1988. For God’s sake let her go pg 1 and 2. Sister’s pea for lost Julie. By Norm Aisbett

 

[Pandit]

For the car to have gone off the groyne, it had to leap up over nearly one metre high jagged rocks and clear the sides on the way down. The car settled far in excess of 50 metres away from the groyne on the north side, mindful the current would tended to have moved it if anywhere, back towards the rocks on the groyne and south.

This is where the car was found. IMO there's no way it could possibly have flown or tumbled over the groyne.

 

[no name]

For the car to have gone off the groyne, it had to leap up over nearly one metre high jagged rocks and clear the sides on the way down. The car settled far in excess of 50 metres away from the groyne on the north side, mindful the current would tended to have moved it if anywhere, back towards the rocks on the groyne and south.

This is where the car was found. IMO there's no way it could possibly have flown or tumbled over the groyne.

No rocks to jump Pandit. Car could have easily been launched off the end of the groyne. It didnt look like it does now

 

[Pandit]

Really? Did they add a retainer wall onto the rocks later?

No rocks to jump Pandit. Car could have easily been launched off the end of the groyne. It didnt look like it does now

 

[meticulously]

As someone recently suggested, perhaps the BLF slipped off the side road. After having a close look at the Indiana Tea Rooms, and the service road to the north, that's in line with the pylon.

Could it be possible the pylon was used somehow?

Theres a great map diagram Innerchild posted - well done , great work .

Hopefully you don't mind , my little circle , of the reef ,especially the one in the small red circle .
That is a lumpy ,hard limestone rock area, have personally seen it up very close .

The bigger circle is potentially reef bottom but im not sure .
It looks like it in photos but thats no guarantee it is, it could just be seaweed .

The car getting winched out does indicate as to the area where the car was found .
The car was probably found near that little reef which could have done some damage to the car . Either the waves , or when itwas winched in , on top of the limestone rock/reef .

The other 2 pictures, drew in red line a path try to create a path that the car may have took , if it did hit the pylon . (One of many possibilities) imo .

This is one of many possible routes .
In this odd scenario, its a "Dare" to try drive around the pylon , alcohol the stimulus perhaps.

The car possibly is driven down hill into the sea and car gets out near pylon then stops, unable to do anything , the
offender/s leave it & abscond .

Idea only - not a theory im pushing , hypothetical only .
There are many that are reasonable imo , happy to discuss all reasonable ideas...

 

[Innerchild]

That's what I remember too. The groyne had basic lights on it that were weak and only were there for fishing safety. There were no lights at the beach and definitely NOT floodlit for night surfing. Not sure where that idea had come from.

In winter even if you used the beach every day you would not be able to see what was lurking in the darker waters until it came cost to shore. That is how the fatal shark attacks have happened at Cott. The victims could not see the 5 metre sharks in the water.

After dark there was nothing open on the beach itself. It was creepy and dark. Like all beaches in Perth in the 80s.

That came from me who used to swim on that beach every morning winter and summer, laps between groyne and pylon as many other clubbies did. If you arrived at 7.00 am you would be asked is it lunchtime? No sure about night surfing, that could have been city beach. However, I am certain the floodlights lit up water. There were three lights as can be seen in the coloured retrieval photos. I clearly remember going down with friends to surf at night which was a treat for us. Doubtful whether they were left on all night, but who needs them if the car lights were on when it was found.

I think you should be very careful making generalisations about shark attacks. My first time in the tower (pole like structure seen to the NW of the club) I saw a shark and had to evacuate water. I could clearly see it in the water just to north of pylon even though I was approx 300 m away. I remember that as I was unfamiliar with the equipment only having just transferred and could not open the tower window and had to keep the siren on in that small space with all the windows closed for 2 or 3 minutes until beach was evacuated!

 

[Innerchild]

I used to go to the hamburger caravan on Marine parade in 1986. There were no lights on at the beach at night that I remember. No patrols after 5pm. And basically no one at the beach in winter. There was only a kiosk which only opened on the weekends in summer. Local ranger didn't patrol the beach, only the surf lifesavers did, and only in summer.

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The rangers were mentioned a few times in news reports. There is no doubt they existed at the time. One mention was when the car seat was handed in to them and the another when they helped search the beaches. However, to check if Rangers were employed at the time as paid lifeguards and answer other questions about what they knew about Julie Cutler’s car etc, I rang the Cottesloe Council who employed them. The very friendly woman said she would be happy to find out the answers, but I needed to make a written request to access the records from 1988. However, when I did this I received a written reply that they were unable to access the records to answer any questions about this topic.

 

[no name]

Really? Did they add a retainer wall onto the rocks later?

Yep. Flat concrete slab up top and rocks around it originally, few protruded up above the concrete slab and there were several sections that you had a considerable step down to get onto the rocks. People used to sunbake on them. Surfers used to run the length and jump off the end easily. Theres been photos posted of people sitting on the edge with their legs hanging down to the rocks.

 

[Bunnie]

That came from me who used to swim on that beach every morning winter and summer, laps between groyne and pylon as many other clubbies did. If you arrived at 7.00 am you would be asked is it lunchtime? No sure about night surfing, that could have been city beach. However, I am certain the floodlights lit up water. There were three lights as can be seen in the coloured retrieval photos. I clearly remember going down with friends to surf at night which was a treat for us. Doubtful whether they were left on all night, but who needs them if the car lights were on when it was found.

I think you should be very careful making generalisations about shark attacks. My first time in the tower (pole like structure seen to the NW of the club) I saw a shark and had to evacuate water. I could clearly see it in the water just to north of pylon even though I was approx 300 m away. I remember that as I was unfamiliar with the equipment only having just transferred and could not open the tower window and had to keep the siren on in that small space with all the windows closed for 2 or 3 minutes until beach was evacuated!

That is up in a life saving tower. Visibility is different on water and beach level in winter. As you should know.

I live on the beach. I have lived on the beach for 30ish years of my adult life. I don't just go down to the beach for short stints, i see it every day. Different moods, different weather. Debris washing up one day that wasn't visible the day before.

The lights on the groyne did not light the water. They were the basic mellow yellows we had around then. The light waves would not penetrate into water from that height.

The ground height back then was different. The rocks were flatter until the groyne was fortified after storm damage in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

[Pandit]

Well, there ya go. It looks exactly the same to me in structure in the background of the pics when Julie's car was hauled in, including the lights and access ramp down.

I'll try and find those pics. Thanks.

So, if the car could go off the groyne and did, it must have been pushed off driverless with ignition and lights on (in neutral) to tumble down without leaving any sign on the rocks and to travel against the current to be found ... approx 100m to the north.

Still think I like our theory better that it entered the beach north of the groyne.

Yep. Flat concrete slab up top and rocks around it originally, few protruded up above the concrete slab and there were several sections that you had a considerable step down to get onto the rocks. People used to sunbake on them. Surfers used to run the length and jump off the end easily. Theres been photos posted of people sitting on the edge with their legs hanging down to the rocks.

 

[Innerchild]

Really you guys must be bored rehashing this crap, especially since it has #### all to do with the CSK talk about going off topic.

Btw needs more wind direction, Tide changes and moon phases lol.

Good point. The arguments are circular and keep going round and round as none logically explain what happened IMO. Actually, this mirrors the headlines from the time.
Although there has been a truck load of headlines and news reports bought out so discussion has progressed from one poster saying maybe the damage to the car was a distortion of the image.

Initially the only image of the retrieved car was from the screen saver page printed under the “Hints” given in the video published by Claremont Ghost. Why did the person who published the Claremont Ghost video “Hints” have JC’s car as their screensaver on their computer?

The image of JC’s retrieved car on their screensaver was in colour, but the newspaper image was black and white. So how did this person get a colour image of JCs car?

There’s two interesting questions IMO. How bout getting together with Fast Eddie to answer them?

By the way, wind directions have been posted, but the 1988 weather page did have moon phases and tides as well, which were cut out of images.

 

[petedavo.au]

For the car to have gone off the groyne, it had to leap up over nearly one metre high jagged rocks and clear the sides on the way down. The car settled far in excess of 50 metres away from the groyne on the north side, mindful the current would tended to have moved it if anywhere, back towards the rocks on the groyne and south.

This is where the car was found. IMO there's no way it could possibly have flown or tumbled over the groyne.

Actually no, the road on the groyne isn't a metre below the height of the rocks. In some places the road is higher than the rocks in some photos from back then.

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[Pandit]

Yes, we've just discussed that a few posts up PD.

Actually no, the road on the groyne isn't a metre below the height of the rocks. In some places the road is higher than the rocks in some photos from back then.

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