Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[Akai]

When was the term CSK first used , were the media brazen enough to use this term before the third disappearance and why do people assume there were abductions , we know there were at least 2 murders , but they may have happened on the spot for all anybody knows

I dont know that the CSK had an agenda or that he was a predator , he may well have been an opportunist , no stalking or planning required

I do not know that another persons concerns led to his arrest , I don't know much at all and am happy to admit it

Re the use of abduction/disappearance, I have specifically tried to refrain from using the word murder in certain circumstances as the matter is before the courts and the word murder suggests a legal conclusion; abduction seems safer in that regard when talking about the disappearance of the women. If I'm talking about SS I use it as well because we do not know for certain that she is dead as this has not yet been tested in court.

As for being a predator and having an agenda: Whether opportunistic or planned down to the most minor detail, however this was carried out, abducting and killing people makes someone a predator with an agenda by definition.


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[Akai]

All of these theories offered up are just guess work , everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and ideas and I am entitled to fail to see the logic to them

If I wanted to work on percentages every theory, thought idea was wrong before BREs arrest and they will be wrong now , mine included , because nobody has a clue
Plucking ideas our of books never helped before and won't now , people are singing from the same hymn book so to speaks

Books are one of the most useful sources of information about a lot of topics. The people who work in the fields of forensics, profiling, analysis and detective work will probably have read quite a few of them.


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[El Gordo]

Re the use of abduction/disappearance, I have specifically tried to refrain from using the word murder in certain circumstances as the matter is before the courts and the word murder suggests a legal conclusion; abduction seems safer in that regard when talking about the disappearance of the women. If I'm talking about SS I use it as well because we do not know for certain that she is dead as this has not yet been tested in court.

As for being a predator and having an agenda: Whether opportunistic or planned down to the most minor detail, however this was carried out, abducting and killing people makes someone a predator with an agenda by definition.


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By any definition if the crimes were crimes of opportunity that's what they were , no planning or agenda required

 

[Frequant Flyer]

Books are one of the most useful sources of information about a lot of topics. The people who work in the fields of forensics, profiling, analysis and detective work will probably have read quite a few of them.


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I agree entirely the Professionals you mention would read books , they would also write them. .... They would also have the education and training to understand what they were reading and i do not think any of these people are posting here

 

[Pandit]

The Huntingdale attack and the Karrakatta rape, where the victims survived to tell their story suggests some planning goes into his attacks. While the opportunity must necessarily present at some point to strike, remains.

By any definition if the crimes were crimes of opportunity that's what they were , no planning or agenda required

 

[Akai]

By any definition if the crimes were crimes of opportunity that's what they were , no planning or agenda required

If he intended to do anything to them that's an agenda. Doesn't require planning to be an agenda.


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[JudgeJudi]

A High Court ruling that DNA evidence was not enough to convict a man of murder could have wider implications on DNA convictions across Australia.

A Supreme Court jury had convicted 27-year-old Daniel Glenn Fitzgerald over a brutal bashing murder based on DNA found on a didgeridoo.

Fitzgerald was serving a life sentence with a non-parole period of 20 years, and unsuccessfully appealed to the Court of Criminal Appeal. But immediately after hearing submissions on appeal, the High Court acquitted him and has now published its reasons.

It says DNA evidence alone was not enough to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

[URL]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-13/dna-evidence-not-enough-to-secure-murder-conviction/5669136[/URL]

It’s well worth reading the entire article.

A lot of time has been devoted on these threads to DNA evidence, but it should be remembered that DNA is circumstantial evidence and only serves as partial proof of a criminal act. It is a piece of the puzzle, not the entire mosaic.

In a criminal case the statistical conclusions of the expert are based upon procedures, the accuracy of which are not expressed statistically. Once forensic samples are collected, often in less than ideal conditions, they are sent for analysis. The DNA must then be isolated from the samples (that may contain mixed or only partial DNA), and that DNA must be accurately analysed to determine whether there is a match with the suspect’s DNA. There are many possible risks of inaccuracy (e.g. the risks of contamination of forensic samples, risks of laboratory error etc), but also subjective judgments to be taken into account, in determining the weight to be given to the evidence of a match.

 

[Akai]

I agree entirely the Professionals you mention would read books , they would also write them. .... They would also have the education and training to understand what they were reading and i do not think any of these people are posting here

I'd hazard a guess that you don't know most of the people on here personally.

This forum has (totally understandable) limitations on how people can express their knowledge and qualifications, but it doesn't mean they don't have them.

There's a fascinating book called MindHunter (now a series on Netflix) about how profiling came about in the FBI and how this led to solving crimes they previously couldn't.


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[Pandit]

Not necessarily. Those with a bunch of alphabet letters before their names write books but so can anybody else. The author can present up to date information but then that book can get old and the theory changes.

There will be different educated opinions by authors of books. For example, a book written by a psychologist on criminals or crime will present differently to one written by a forensic psychologist. First job in the extended education of forensic psychology, is unlearning what has already been learned in psychology.

I agree entirely the Professionals you mention would read books , they would also write them. .... They would also have the education and training to understand what they were reading and i do not think any of these people are posting here

 

[lampformypath]

When was the term CSK first used , were the media brazen enough to use this term before the third disappearance and why do people assume there were abductions , we know there were at least 2 murders , but they may have happened on the spot for all anybody knows

I dont know that the CSK had an agenda or that he was a predator , he may well have been an opportunist , no stalking or planning required

I do not know that another persons concerns led to his arrest , I don't know much at all and am happy to admit it

Here's a quote from the link below BBM The article said that :

Two days after Ms Glennon went missing and 15 months after it all started, then State crime commander Bob Ibbotson called a press conference.​

“I think it’s fair to say that we certainly have fears that there is a serial killer at loose in Perth,” he said.​

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...nto-perth-ng-9062fc5d579dbb55d5e80494fe67e93d


I know you're not so fond of books as reference materials for this website, as you say, we all are entitled to our opinions on here, but I think this series (based on a book) on Netflix called "Mind Hunter" might interest you El Gordo? It's all about how the term "Serial Killer" came about back in 1974 (as previously they were called Mass Murders)

QUOTE from the book:

"In 1974, Ressler was a lecturer at a police academy in Bramshill, England. After hearing about a particularly gruesome string of crimes, Ressler recalled the serial adventure films he’d grown up watching in movie theaters in the ‘30s and 40s. Each episode ended on a cliffhanger that compelled moviegoers to keep coming back.



According to Psychology Today, Ressler connected this movie-going phenomenon to the feelings that compelled certain killers to commit murder over and over. These people, Ressler thought, are stuck in a serial cycle of completing the perfect crime."


​

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/10/176803/serial-killer-definition-mindhunter-term

 

[Akai]

I know you're not so fond of books as reference materials for this website, as you say, we all are entitled to our opinions on here, but I think this series (based on a book) on Netflix called "Mind Hunter" might interest you El Gordo? It's all about how the term "Serial Killer" came about back in 1974 (as previously they were called Mass Murders)

QUOTE from the book:

"In 1974, Ressler was a lecturer at a police academy in Bramshill, England. After hearing about a particularly gruesome string of crimes, Ressler recalled the serial adventure films he’d grown up watching in movie theaters in the ‘30s and 40s. Each episode ended on a cliffhanger that compelled moviegoers to keep coming back.



According to Psychology Today, Ressler connected this movie-going phenomenon to the feelings that compelled certain killers to commit murder over and over. These people, Ressler thought, are stuck in a serial cycle of completing the perfect crime."


​

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/10/176803/serial-killer-definition-mindhunter-term

[emoji23] Snap lampformypath. We both mentioned MindHunter at the same time.


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[lampformypath]

A High Court ruling that DNA evidence was not enough to convict a man of murder could have wider implications on DNA convictions across Australia.

A Supreme Court jury had convicted 27-year-old Daniel Glenn Fitzgerald over a brutal bashing murder based on DNA found on a didgeridoo.

Fitzgerald was serving a life sentence with a non-parole period of 20 years, and unsuccessfully appealed to the Court of Criminal Appeal. But immediately after hearing submissions on appeal, the High Court acquitted him and has now published its reasons.

It says DNA evidence alone was not enough to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-13/dna-evidence-not-enough-to-secure-murder-conviction/5669136

It’s well worth reading the entire article.

A lot of time has been devoted on these threads to DNA evidence, but it should be remembered that DNA is circumstantial evidence and only serves as partial proof of a criminal act. It is a piece of the puzzle, not the entire mosaic.

In a criminal case the statistical conclusions of the expert are based upon procedures, the accuracy of which are not expressed statistically. Once forensic samples are collected, often in less than ideal conditions, they are sent for analysis. The DNA must then be isolated from the samples (that may contain mixed or only partial DNA), and that DNA must be accurately analysed to determine whether there is a match with the suspect’s DNA. There are many possible risks of inaccuracy (e.g. the risks of contamination of forensic samples, risks of laboratory error etc), but also subjective judgments to be taken into account, in determining the weight to be given to the evidence of a match.

What an amazing case AND what a precedent that has been set! Thank you for sharing that article JudgeJudi, "secondary transfer - the new concept!" Who would have thought, just a handshake earlier in the night and whammo.... case dismissed!

I like this quote (BBM) from the article too, very true, aren't we all conditioned by TV shows!

"So the possibility arises that through a handshake or some other quite innocent contact DNA can be transferred onto a carrier who can then transfer that DNA onto another object."There are probably only a few cases where there's a circumstantial case that involves DNA alone, but I think we're all conditioned to what I call the CSI effect where we look at North American television programs and we all assume that DNA is infallible proof of of a crime but this possibility of secondary transfer that the High Court has now accepted casts some significant doubt on that."​

Hmm.... thinking, thinking....

 

[Frequant Flyer]

Not necessarily. Those with a bunch of alphabet letters before their names write books but so can anybody else. The author can present up to date information but then that book can get old and the theory changes.

There will be different educated opinions by authors of books. For example, a book written by a psychologist on criminals or crime will present differently to one written by a forensic psychologist. First job in the extended education of forensic psychology, is unlearning what has already been learned in psychology.

Thank you for your roundabout support of my case , First job in Extended Education , as in you had the Education in the first place .... And I'm not sure the advice of unlearning has been handed out to the novices , you wouldn't buy the book in the first place if it was , Read this and forget it ?

 

[lampformypath]

I'd hazard a guess that you don't know most of the people on here personally.

This forum has (totally understandable) limitations on how people can express their knowledge and qualifications, but it doesn't mean they don't have them.

There's a fascinating book called MindHunter (now a series on Netflix) about how profiling came about in the FBI and how this led to solving crimes they previously couldn't.


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SNAP! I hadn't seen your post at all Akai, spooky we both found that series. I saw it in an article on line, had never heard of the series let alone seen it!

 

[El Gordo]

Here's a quote from the link below BBM The article said that :

Two days after Ms Glennon went missing and 15 months after it all started, then State crime commander Bob Ibbotson called a press conference.​

“I think it’s fair to say that we certainly have fears that there is a serial killer at loose in Perth,” he said.​

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...nto-perth-ng-9062fc5d579dbb55d5e80494fe67e93d


I know you're not so fond of books as reference materials for this website, as you say, we all are entitled to our opinions on here, but I think this series (based on a book) on Netflix called "Mind Hunter" might interest you El Gordo? It's all about how the term "Serial Killer" came about back in 1974 (as previously they were called Mass Murders)

QUOTE from the book:

"In 1974, Ressler was a lecturer at a police academy in Bramshill, England. After hearing about a particularly gruesome string of crimes, Ressler recalled the serial adventure films he’d grown up watching in movie theaters in the ‘30s and 40s. Each episode ended on a cliffhanger that compelled moviegoers to keep coming back.



According to Psychology Today, Ressler connected this movie-going phenomenon to the feelings that compelled certain killers to commit murder over and over. These people, Ressler thought, are stuck in a serial cycle of completing the perfect crime."


​

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/10/176803/serial-killer-definition-mindhunter-term

Thank you for the info on when the term SK was first used and thank you for the Netflix recommendation , I really have no interest in the subject of serial killers or any killers for that matter

My interest in the CSK is for personal reasons and apart from that I have no interest whatsoever

 

[Canning Vale]

When was the term CSK first used , were the media brazen enough to use this term before the third disappearance and why do people assume there were abductions , we know there were at least 2 murders , but they may have happened on the spot for all anybody knows

I dont know that the CSK had an agenda or that he was a predator , he may well have been an opportunist , no stalking or planning required

I do not know that another persons concerns led to his arrest , I don't know much at all and am happy to admit it

It’s a good point about the pre-planning. We know he came prepared for the KK rape. He had wire and something to place over the victim's head – that appears to be planned.

 

[Akai]

SNAP! I hadn't seen your post at all Akai, spooky we both found that series. I saw it in an article on line, had never heard of the series let alone seen it!

The series is very good, but the book is exceptional. It was very much the dogged determination of a couple of FBI people (one detective and a behavioral scientist) despite a lot of opposition, who developed profiling. It makes me laugh to think the FBI shitcanned it and now they're one of the foremost profiling agencies in the world.

They initially called them "series killers".

Anyway, we are getting a bit off topic. But a funny coincidence.


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[lampformypath]

The series is very good, but the book is exceptional. It was very much the dogged determination of a couple of FBI people (one detective and a behavioral scientist) despite a lot of opposition, who developed profiling. It makes me laugh to think the FBI shitcanned it and now they're one of the foremost profiling agencies in the world.

They initially called them "series killers".

Anyway, we are getting a bit off topic. But a funny coincidence.


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Thanks Akai, sounds amazing. I'll check it out, now back to the forum topic...

 

[Pandit]

Different horses for different courses.

Thank you for your roundabout support of my case , First job in Extended Education , as in you had the Education in the first place .... And I'm not sure the advice of unlearning has been handed out to the novices , you wouldn't buy the book in the first place if it was , Read this and forget it ?

 

[Canning Vale]

I really enjoy reading the posts on here. When you think about it, between all of us, we have a wealth of knowledge regarding different issues. Akai and Pandit have certainly got major insight into the subject discussed. A couple of you would benefit from reading their posts and learning from the content. Some of the replies show people as having little knowledge of the subject – and not willing to learn from someone else’s knowledge.

Sensible replies only - please!