Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

[meticulously]

Have we ever considered Sarah may have been placed in the ocean? If it was first murder, perhaps culprit was more cagey about having body discovered. I realise tide may have brought her to shore, but also a good chance sea life would have destroyed a lot of evidence etc. Just a thought.

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There has been theories of boats being used by forum members.

How would the tide take a body to the shore ?
How big a tide are you thinking of ?
Has the tide ever done that before, that you know of ?

 

[nbates]

No idea 're tides. Not from WA.

Just think he wouldn't have gone to great lengths to use a boat unless he had one himself (and there's been no mention of that).

Access to a pier you could drive down? Thrown off cliff or rocks in remote area?

There has been theories of boats being used by forum members.

How would the tide take a body to the shore ?
How big a tide are you thinking of ?
Has the tide ever done that before, that you know of ?

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[petedavo.au]

There has been theories of boats being used by forum members.

How would the tide take a body to the shore ?
How big a tide are you thinking of ?
Has the tide ever done that before, that you know of ?

In an unrelated case reported today the Police theory is that a Fiat was washed out to sea and then pushed back to shore the following day.
https://twitter.com/WAtoday/status/993702150298517505
Picture below appears in the story.
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[Eaglette]

Re: 50 metres down an embankment

If this indeed is correct;

Was CG frogged marched down? Was she running away from the perp? Was the body carried? Was the body dragged? (surely broken scrub would indicate this method) Have forensics been able to account how it occurred? I wait for the answers along with most of Perth public.

 

[meticulously]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html

By the looks of the photo of the car upturned, the roof may have caved in during the retrieval when dragging it in from the ocean.

 

[meticulously]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html

"The former cop believes Ms Cutler succumbed to whatever fate she met in a five-hour window between 12.30am on June 20 and daybreak that morning.

"In my view someone must have intervened between the time Julie left the Parmelia Hotel and daybreak,” he said.

“(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.

“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.

“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.

“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

 

[Innerchild]

In an unrelated case reported today the Police theory is that a Fiat was washed out to sea and then pushed back to shore the following day.
https://twitter.com/WAtoday/status/993702150298517505
Picture below appears in the story.
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Very interesting information on JC's disappearance. Wasn't it Ron Casey that said at the time the rear seat must have floated out the back window of the Fiat? He retired in 2005 and cold case review last year, so hope they had a forensic physicist look at the evidence.

[FONT=&quot]“(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.

I think he's saying he thought the Fiat was put into the ocean off the retaining wall next to the CSLSC boat shed and it got washed out to sea because there were large waves. It was not there the next morning so that is why he thinks it got washed out to sea and then washed back to Cottesloe two days later.

Even though the tide was coming in in the 12 hour period between around 10.00 pm and 10.00 am. Also waves wash objects into shore. Buoyancy factor of the one tonne car was 10 times neutral. Image how far a 10 tonne object would go with the tide and waves coming into shore?

But because the car wasn't there the next morning (or the one after that) and the back seat of the car washed up south of the groyne that afternoon (20th June), you have to have some theory.

“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

... Or it wasn't seen at all for the next two days because it didn't enter the water until Tuesday night and found Wednesday 22nd June 1988.[/FONT]

 

[MRichards]

The whole psychiatric post brings back Ciaras mate who was found away from Graylands hospital which is not far from Claremont Speedway.

Romauld Zac had an odd case where it appeared a staged death and or cover up by potentiallly a psychiatric patient or someone else.

http://blogs.watoday.com.au/yoursay/2008/08/claremont_killi.html

 

[Annalise]

https://twitter.com/WAtoday/status/993702150298517505

Some good information about JC in twitter especially about a number of Parmelia Hotel champagne flutes found in car. Also mention of the Casino.

No mention of a connection to the CSK though[emoji848] MOO




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[MRichards]

I think at the time of the murders he was psychotic or on drugs. Even though he may have planned where to place the victims he obviously wanted them found easily since they weren’t buried. With regards to why he chose to put CG in a harder place to get to - maybe as long as he stuck to the line theory that was the most important thing to him. Someone in a psychotic or drugged state often have more strength and take chances of being caught. So may not have been difficult to carry a person through scrub in the dark, down a sloap to a place already familiar to him. MOO


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I think dragged her backwards under the armpits

Mmoo

 

[Pandit]

I think it was me actually, (on here anyway) that said the back window of rusty old Fiat would have broken quite quickly, the back seat on old clips would have dislodged and found it's way out of the car likely through the big back window to be dragged on the current and found later that day, exactly where we would expect it to be found and in line with meticulously's relevant weather thesis. That logically, there was only one dumping event not two.

This detective didn't say the car was washed out and washed back in. He said it went over the wall (like a ramp) and straight into the sea, the waves in strong winds were lapping the wall on the promenade. The car floated some way out, tossed about a bit and then the sea receded to reveal the sand. People who were on the beach later that day, would not immediately have seen the two tone grey car in the water.

Very interesting information on JC's disappearance. Wasn't it Ron Casey that said at the time the rear seat must have floated out the back window of the Fiat? He retired in 2005 and cold case review last year, so hope they had a forensic physicist look at the evidence.

[FONT=&amp]“(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.

I think he's saying he thought the Fiat was put into the ocean off the retaining wall next to the CSLSC boat shed and it got washed out to sea because there were large waves. It was not there the next morning so that is why he thinks it got washed out to sea and then washed back to Cottesloe two days later.

Even though the tide was coming in in the 12 hour period between around 10.00 pm and 10.00 am. Also waves wash objects into shore. Buoyancy factor of the one tonne car was 10 times neutral. Image how far a 10 tonne object would go with the tide and waves coming into shore?

But because the car wasn't there the next morning (or the one after that) and the back seat of the car washed up south of the groyne that afternoon (20th June), you have to have some theory.

“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

... Or it wasn't seen at all for the next two days because it didn't enter the water until Tuesday night and found Wednesday 22nd June 1988.[/FONT]

 

[meticulously]

I think it was me actually, (on here anyway) that said the back window of rusty old Fiat would have broken quite quickly, the back seat on old clips would have dislodged and found it's way out of the car likely through the big back window to be dragged on the current and found later that day, exactly where we would expect it to be found and in line with meticulously's relevant weather thesis. That logically, there was only one dumping event not two.

This detective didn't say the car was washed out and washed back in. He said it went over the wall (like a ramp) and straight into the sea, the waves in strong winds were lapping the wall on the promenade. The car floated some way out, tossed about a bit and then the sea receded to reveal the sand. People who were on the beach later that day, would not immediately have seen the two tone grey car in the water.

“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

This means that any other time over the time between 20th -22nd it went in would have left tracks on the sand.
Because the waves were big during the night (as mentioned in article- 5hr window) the waves washed any tracks away .
Leaving no sign of a car going into the ocean.
The water was murky so it wasnt noticed until days later..
JmO

 

[Jackman]

With regard to Julie Cutler's disappearance has anyone looked into the weather or tidal conditions of the night concerned?

 

[meticulously]

“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club."

I wonder why the news report is saying strong winds ??? It was not strong at all during the time frame midnight to dawn.
They didnt read my weather analysis very well because there was virtually almost NO wind between midnight and daybreak !

If anyone wants me to post the weather data i can do that again [emoji6]

Thats bodgy news reporting there..
But at they at least understand that the waves were washing up high on the beach, due to a big swell from the storm the couple of days prior to the disappearance..

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html

 

[meticulously]

With regard to Julie Cutler's disappearance has anyone looked into the weather or tidal conditions of the night concerned?

Yes JM , do you want to read about it ?
Theres about 400 posts about that , on this website. Suprised you weren't aware of it..

 

[lampformypath]

Found this and thought I'd share it here - the old DNA debate again, but this is a new, well relatively new (2015) twist with a DNA "photo" being able to be produced from as little as one hair or drop of DNA! Now that WOULD narrow things down quite a lot hey when investigating a crime? Wonder if WAPOL has sent any DNA from the CSK case overseas in the last few years? Below is the reporter of the article who supplied his DNA anonymously and the DNA "photo" that came back - pretty amazing!

QUOTE:

"

The National Institute of Forensic Science’s Dr Linzi Wilson-Wilde said police could send DNA samples overseas now but setting up the groundbreaking technology in Australia would take time."​

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...7452175db?sv=bfebbd2c7abb9d73b6a433f3125082a1

 

[Kambo]

With regard to Julie Cutler's disappearance has anyone looked into the weather or tidal conditions of the night concerned?

Lol - please do.

Don’t forget the barge


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[meticulously]

I think it was me actually, (on here anyway) that said the back window of rusty old Fiat would have broken quite quickly, the back seat on old clips would have dislodged and found it's way out of the car likely through the big back window to be dragged on the current and found later that day, exactly where we would expect it to be found and in line with meticulously's relevant weather thesis. That logically, there was only one dumping event not two.

This detective didn't say the car was washed out and washed back in. He said it went over the wall (like a ramp) and straight into the sea, the waves in strong winds were lapping the wall on the promenade. The car floated some way out, tossed about a bit and then the sea receded to reveal the sand. People who were on the beach later that day, would not immediately have seen the two tone grey car in the water.

Pandit yes that was , you were adamant the car went in on the night JC disappeared and was driven from the clubhouse access roads. It seems your correct .

Quote from the article :
"(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.
“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.
“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.
“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

It was really disappointing that some ws members commented that they were sick of the topic, wanted it to stop etc !
And then now you read the news report and its obvious that information was gleaned from the forum.
Previously unreleased information in the article, mentions rear door that couldn't be locked, burswood casino, champagne flutes, waves washing the beach clean & early morning swimmers.

Special thanks to Innerchild and Pandit and all the others who contributed, for putting a lot of time and effort into going over the details..
I hope it helped the cold case review to progress and JC's family, Hopefully they got some answers.

 

[Jackman]

Lol - please do.

Don’t forget the barge


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Glad someone got a chuckle from my humour!

 

[Annalise]

Well done Metic, Pandit, Innerchild and anyone else who contributed to the very tedious work that went into trying to figure out how JC’s fiat got into the ocean and washed up where it did. You guys were relentless. It seems you achieved what previously could not be. Congrats Pandit.[emoji322][emoji122]


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