Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Elwood_1]

An interesting fact that about David Birnie's abduction in Claremont:


The second killing took place two weeks later when they abducted 15-year-old Susannah Candy as she hitchhiked along Stirling Highway in Claremont. An outstanding student at the Hollywood High School, Candy lived at home in Nedlands with her parents, two brothers and a sister.
The Birnies had been cruising for hours looking for a victim when they spotted Candy. Within seconds of being in the car she had a knife at her throat and her hands were bound. She was taken back to the Willagee house where she was gagged, chained to the bed and raped.

Noelene Patterson worked at the Nedlands golf club, and Denise Brown was taken from a bus stop on Stirling Highway Fremantle. The locations are a remarkable coincidence.

Also, it was portrayed that David Birnie was the driving force behind the crimes. I know someone who had extended official contact with him in Casuarina Prison, and their view was that he was of such weak character compared to Catherine, that it was actually she who was in charge, and that it has he carrying out the abductions upon her direction, just to please her. I was also told at the time by a member of the WAPOL that it was suspected that Catherine personally carried out the actual killings after actively participating in the rapes. The axe murder in particular was noted. The victim (Denise Brown) was reported to have been liked by him, and Catherine became infuriated. She was supposedly stabbed while he was actually raping her. That sounds more like someone who is very angry doing it, not someone in the process of.
What I found interesting was that Catherine was once reported to be the passenger in the front of the car and David the driver, which would make the dynamic of subduing the victims very interesting. She was seen drinking out of a can, and reportedly used sleeping tablets to subdue their victims. I wonder if she gave the victims spiked drinks at the time of capture. I wonder if the CSK did the same. Drink spiking has been pretty widely rumored in Perth for many years.

He had trained as a jockey, and was presumably small and weak, while she was reported to be powerful and capable of remarkable violence. He has been described to me as 'pathetic', and his suicide as anything but. Apparently he was so universally hated in prison, by officers and inmates alike, that the official investigation was allegedly only ever going to reach the determination of suicide, and that it was inevitable and eagerly anticipated by many.

Word was Catherine was the real monster, but she managed to pass herself off as the accomplice in the hope of getting a lighter sentence.

Anyway, off topic, and I'll let it go at that.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

I will give it a go as why I think TT is responsible. I posted an outline of my thoughts in post #749 but I will try to go into more detail here.

The case has to be looked at from the start realistically and I think the answer is in something so simple as how do 3 young girls go missing from the streets of Claremont with no trace. What sort of vehicle would not 1 but all 3 girls hop into with as little suspicion as possible?

Sarah Spiers is the important link here and the fact she had called a taxi and then disappears within the 3 minutes of the taxi arriving suggests to me that it could be nothing else but a taxi. Ok a blitz attack is possible and I don't know how a young girl wold respond if someone produces a gun and says get in but I really think that the coincidence of a random car arriving in that 3 minutes and pulling off a stunt like that (and another 2 times) in a busy nightspot, where say a car full of young guys was considering turning back is too risky.

To me it appears almost certain a taxi has heard the radio call from a Sarah, arrived as they might have already been aware of where she was and then she simply gets in the taxi and bang that's its...easy...especially if you have someone in the back (which I feel you would need as the driver already has his hands full) who you could not see when the taxi pulls up and who you see once inside is an attractive woman who instantly puts your mind at ease and is happy to share the cab (or I dread to think about it does what Catherine Birnie did straight up with the wire)

If you are waiting for a taxi you dont just get into any old random car that pulls up regardless of who it is. What about the taxi call what you just leave it do you. She was a young intelligent woman and for another 2 girls to jump in random cars when they appear to be looking for taxis is very far fetched and a blitz attack in a busy nightspot (the mm video shows how many people are milling around) something would go wrong you know like some screams or what if Frankie in the bus stop happens to see it. Police car is a possiility but again drunk people would notice the cops movements and I think a girl waiting for a taxi would rather continue waiting as would in most likeliness 2 other girls.

And I think the sighting of a taxi at the dump site on the night of a disappearance is way to uncanny to be ignored (even though the police inexplicitly did). The witness saw a taxi with a figure in the back pulling out from a road where a taxi with a passenger had no right to be. Why would the witness lie they had to nothing to gain. The dumping of these 60kg+ bodies would have required 2 people you cant tell me someone could do that by themselves and leave no evidence behind in the process.

So who has access to taxis? taxi drivers. The police DNA tested every Perth driver because they have good reason to believe that as well. I initially thought Weyger/Ross but they seem to have been cleared and something about that line of direction doesn't seem right. So where are all the other suspects in the taxi industry.... theres isn't one and probably for good reason. Remember someone always knows something and this is where Droc comes in and he appeared to be good friends with who he suspected at the time.

TT was in the area at the exact time of Ciara's disappearance. That has been established. His alibi with the drunk driver was frankly pretty average (but the police were happy with it enough to apparently discontinue there investiagions based on that) and times of fares etc have been changed and were inconsistent which normally indicate someone has something to hide.

His story of going home to a smoke a joint reeks of bull**** and imo it is someone telling an alibi to the police and in order for that alibi to sound more authentic they make it slightly illegal (but not too bad). C'mon I know how the smoking game goes and again looking at this realistically you would not go home and grab a joint at 1 o'clock you would have your little choof bag on you at the start of the night so you can pull over somewhere and top up your stonedness. And even if he didn't have it on him would you believe someone goes out of there way to go home to smoke it up smack bang in the middle of the busiest night for a taxi driver etc etc etc.

Sorry but there are too many inconsistencies in what TT was upto that night and I feel Droc was aware of what was going on and he knew Michelle and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a drug affected working girl, being driven around and friends with a taxi driver, would concoct some sick kind of plan to say "kill rich kids" thanks Bowman for that link to Sean Price or "do a Catherine Birnie type thing" thanks Elwood above.

Am I right to believe they never suspected sexual assault as the main reason for the CSK so what does that tell you and more than one person had to be involved in this. Droc made it clear Michelle was the driving force and the disappearances coincided with her traveling movements. Maybe TT wasn't as heavily involved as you would imagine and hence he could be careful about not leaving evidence. In any event his taxi was disposed of after the murders and you would think the murder scene would have been contained within the vehicle quite easily (and this is before considering the botched investigation and the fact he wasnt interviewed until years later)

And as for Droc well I cant quite fathom why any intelligent person would request royal commissions and accuse the taskforce of corruption for 15 years for no good reason. I would give up after 2 weeks when you start to consider "oh well maybe they can see through my lies or what is probably incorrect information and theories".

But no Droc was adamant for 15 years and he had some important people backing him and they were all just ignored for whatever reason a corrupt/incompetent force has. Why would you go to the trouble he went to and for those who say he was an attention seeking crim i say that's rubbish. Theres other ways to get attention than write 120 page files on why you know who the CSK is and Drocs life in his last 15 years or so suggested someone who was at peace with himself and not so bad anymore.

He released too many pieces of information and other bits and pieces that I don't think can be made up and they appear to paint a very good picture of what happened....noone has ever convinced me otherwise. Some people say he was sure of his intentions but he could have just been wrong about his suspects are ignoring all the pieces of information he had on these people and what he and his girlfriend heard that night from TT and Michelle for example. Read through his files and you cant just make that stuff up and expect to get away with it when approaching the government.

I hope that covers it. There is probably many other things I have left out but I can't do this all day.

Bartholumue you appear to have put an extraordinary effort into this case and your collection of information. Can you please give me your POI's in a list.

 

[Bartholemeus]

That's a pretty sound and well thought out theory. Let me just interject with a few thoughts.

I will give it a go as why I think TT is responsible. I posted an outline of my thoughts in post #749 but I will try to go into more detail here.

The case has to be looked at from the start realistically and I think the answer is in something so simple as how do 3 young girls go missing from the streets of Claremont with no trace. What sort of vehicle would not 1 but all 3 girls hop into with as little suspicion as possible?

Sarah Spiers is the important link here and the fact she had called a taxi and then disappears within the 3 minutes of the taxi arriving suggests to me that it could be nothing else but a taxi. Ok a blitz attack is possible and I don't know how a young girl would respond if someone produces a gun and says get in but I really think that the coincidence of a random car arriving in that 3 minutes and pulling off a stunt like that (and another 2 times) in a busy nightspot, where say a car full of young guys was considering turning back is too risky.

To me it appears almost certain a taxi has heard the radio call from a Sarah, arrived as they might have already been aware of where she was and then she simply gets in the taxi and bang that's its...easy...especially if you have someone in the back (which I feel you would need as the driver already has his hands full) who you could not see when the taxi pulls up and who you see once inside is an attractive woman who instantly puts your mind at ease and is happy to share the cab (or I dread to think about it does what Catherine Birnie did straight up with the wire)

I think it's possible all 3 girls got into a car. I don't think the girls, or any other girls for that matter are above making dumb decisions. Lots of people claim CG would never have got into a car with a stranger yet she walked along the Hwy alone and leant over to a passenger window of a stranger.

I also have no issue with the timing. CSK waits in Chatsworth Tce knowing a girl will at some stage of the night stray from the crowd and use that phone box. He sees SS make the call and he drives up to her with a good and well rehearsed pitch.

But in saying that. the taxi theory is still a sound theory, as is police car or fake police car.

Whilst I think there is a very good chance Karra is linked, I'm not sold on the CSK killings being blitz attacks. One possibility is he switched abduction method, the other is the Karra rape is not linked.

If you are waiting for a taxi you dont just get into any old random car that pulls up regardless of who it is.

Definitely possible.

"Hey, are you waiting for a taxi? I don't usually offer rides but it's Australia Day and you might be waiting for a few hours. I live over there in Chatsworth Tce and I'm heading to Fremantle for work. Do you want a ride?"

And I think the sighting of a taxi at the dump site on the night of a disappearance is way to uncanny to be ignored (even though the police inexplicitly did). The witness saw a taxi with a figure in the back pulling out from a road where a taxi with a passenger had no right to be. Why would the witness lie they had to nothing to gain. The dumping of these 60kg+ bodies would have required 2 people you cant tell me someone could do that by themselves and leave no evidence behind in the process.

The problem with this is that it was the wrong night. CG was abducted Fri night/Sat morn, the brickie witnessed the taxi on a Sunday morning and he was sure it was Sunday because he was working Sundays on that job.

Unfortunately people do lie about this case and other crimes. There's no shortage of them in fact.

So who has access to taxis? taxi drivers. The police DNA tested every Perth driver because they have good reason to believe that as well. I initially thought Weyger/Ross but they seem to have been cleared and something about that line of direction doesn't seem right. So where are all the other suspects in the taxi industry.... theres isn't one and probably for good reason. Remember someone always knows something and this is where Droc comes in and he appeared to be good friends with who he suspected at the time.

I don't believe Weygers and Ross have been cleared. Police have never said this. The West claimed they have based on a story in The Post. Police decline to comment.

The problem I have with SR is he's not local. I think it's very likely the offender is local (Dalkeith, Nedlands, Claremont, Swanbourne, Cottesloe, Mosman Park)

TT was in the area at the exact time of Ciara's disappearance. That has been established. His alibi with the drunk driver was frankly pretty average (but the police were happy with it enough to apparently discontinue there investiagions based on that) and times of fares etc have been changed and were inconsistent which normally indicate someone has something to hide.

This is just Droc's assumption that police ruled him out based on his flimsy alibi. My guess is they looked a bit deeper and ruled him out.

And as for Droc well I cant quite fathom why any intelligent person would request royal commissions and accuse the taskforce of corruption for 15 years for no good reason. I would give up after 2 weeks when you start to consider "oh well maybe they can see through my lies or what is probably incorrect information and theories".

I thought Droc was genuine but that doesn't mean he wasn't lying. I think he was lying in parts but not to create mischief but because he was so convinced it was true he felt there was no harm in it.

When I first spoke to him he assured me what he said was true. He said "don't ask me why I know (the snuff film) but I know for sure it's true". In the end he admitted in was just a theory.

But no Droc was adamant for 15 years and he had some important people backing him

Yep - God fearing sympathisers. You'll find logic gets thrown out the window sometimes with God-fearers.

and they were all just ignored for whatever reason a corrupt/incompetent force has. Why would you go to the trouble he went to and for those who say he was an attention seeking crim i say that's rubbish. Theres other ways to get attention than write 120 page files on why you know who the CSK is and Drocs life in his last 15 years or so suggested someone who was at peace with himself and not so bad anymore.

A better question is;

Do you really think this corruption continued over 15 years? Do you really think this is some sort of widespread cover up within the force?

I'll buy some initial incompetence but over 15 years someone would have had a red hot look into TT to see if there's anything in it.

Bartholumue you appear to have put an extraordinary effort into this case and your collection of information. Can you please give me your POI's in a list.

Something like this;

1. LW. 7/1
2. Judo 8/1
3. PW/SR 10/1
4. Someone off our radar 12/1
5. Telstra Man, TT 20/1
6. Morey, Dixie, Many Leucas 50/1

If police have enough DNA to link CSK to Karrakatta like BC says they do then LW, PW, and SR are ruled out. Judo - not necessarily, and whilst the chances of him being ruled out increase, so do the chances of him being the CSK.

Your theory on TT is good but has flaws - not unlike all the other suspects. They all have pros and cons.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

I think it's possible all 3 girls got into a car. I don't think the girls, or any other girls for that matter are above making dumb decisions. Lots of people claim CG would never have got into a car with a stranger yet she walked along the Hwy alone and leant over to a passenger window of a stranger.

Definitely possible.

"Hey, are you waiting for a taxi? I don't usually offer rides but it's Australia Day and you might be waiting for a few hours. I live over there in Chatsworth Tce and I'm heading to Fremantle for work. Do you want a ride?"

Yes definitely possible but all 3 of them unlikely and as I say I think its a common reasonable theory that 2 people would have been involved. So whoever was in the passenger window must have been the CSK if no-one has come forward to admit it was them. It would make sense and be too much of a coincidence not to be.

The problem with this is that it was the wrong night. CG was abducted Fri night/Sat morn, the brickie witnessed the taxi on a Sunday morning and he was sure it was Sunday because he was working Sundays on that job.

Unfortunately people do lie about this case and other crimes. There's no shortage of them in fact.

I remember it might have been accepted that the body could easily have been kept for a bit longer being the third victim (more experience and daring) and to maybe use the body to take photographs/videos. Not unreasonable really.

I just don't get the impression he was lying for a few good reasons. Him and his wife stack up to me.

I don't believe Weygers and Ross have been cleared. Police have never said this. The West claimed they have based on a story in The Post. Police decline to comment.

This wouldn't surprise me at all then. These two seem very sketchy but i remember when I was reading up on them something had me figuring out that it was unlikely. I think Weygers released a video explaining how he wasn't involved and it came across as sincere. Maybe hes a good liar he is a politician I dont know wish I could hear the same from TT

This is just Droc's assumption that police ruled him out based on his flimsy alibi. My guess is they looked a bit deeper and ruled him out.

I was of the assumption that he was told this. Your right though Droc could have made this up but I dont see why he would do this when arguing with the police. Would they not confirm this isn't the case that he was ruled out due to other circumstances. Besides TT wasnt interviewed for a significant amount of time so unlikely they looked further and they lied in Drocs formal documents about approaching TT....alarm bells for me.

I thought Droc was genuine but that doesn't mean he wasn't lying. I think he was lying in parts but not to create mischief but because he was so convinced it was true he felt there was no harm in it.

When I first spoke to him he assured me what he said was true. He said "don't ask me why I know (the snuff film) but I know for sure it's true". In the end he admitted in was just a theory.

Not sure to be honest I would like to see where he changed his mind on the snuff movie. As for lying because he felt there was no harm in it that would be a strange thing to do if your trying to get your evidence submitted to the ACC and a royal commission.

Yep - God fearing sympathisers. You'll find logic gets thrown out the window sometimes with God-fearers.

Haha I'm no god fearer but this doesn't have much to do with their religion surely. Christabel was above that I would have thought and would not have risen to her ranks in psychology if she was nuts.

A better question is;

Do you really think this corruption continued over 15 years? Do you really think this is some sort of widespread cover up within the force?

I'll buy some initial incompetence but over 15 years someone would have had a red hot look into TT to see if there's anything in it.

Nah that's not really what I'm saying....they probably have no idea like we do of who the killer is so aren't protecting anyone. Droc was accusing them of covering up the fact that they and the media stood to be sued for being useless so they are just going on there merry way of not trying too hard to solve the case. Caporn had a lot to lose initially so he is very suspect and since he left then well what can they do..there is no evidence and alot of conjecture they have no idea what to do.

Something like this;

1. LW. 7/1
2. Judo 8/1
3. PW/SR 10/1
4. Someone off our radar 12/1
5. Telstra Man, TT 20/1
6. Morey, Dixie, Many Leucas 50/1

If police have enough DNA to link CSK to Karrakatta like BC says they do then LW, PW, and SR are ruled out. Judo - not necessarily, and whilst the chances of him being ruled out increase, so do the chances of him being the CSK.

Its interesting isn't it. Thats why gamblers never succeed because if we all knew who the winner is we would all become instant millionaires

I cant see LW or Judo being it because there is only one of them and that's just too hard to subdue a passenger. I think in Judo's case it would be too coincidental that the killer knew the victim and then followed or happened across them in Claremont...plus he didn't know one of them. LW has been grilled too much and despite being a dolt with his stalking he would of been nailed by now with the heat that was on him.

Someone off our radar what about Romauld Zak or Estelle Blackburns ex boyfriend they both seem very legitimate...there are so many options no wonder WAPOL dont know what the **** is going on.

 

[Sutton]

I will give it a go as why I think TT is responsible. I posted an outline of my thoughts in post #749 but I will try to go into more detail here...

...Sarah Spiers is the important link here and the fact she had called a taxi and then disappears within the 3 minutes of the taxi arriving suggests to me that it could be nothing else but a taxi. Ok a blitz attack is possible and I don't know how a young girl wold respond if someone produces a gun and says get in but I really think that the coincidence of a random car arriving in that 3 minutes and pulling off a stunt like that (and another 2 times) in a busy nightspot, where say a car full of young guys was considering turning back is too risky.

RSBM. I reread post #749 as well. Thanks for laying out your argument. Initially a taxi abduction seems probable. A random car pulling up in that short of a time span is unlikely.

But it wouldn't have to be a random car. It would be a predator's car. It would be a man driving around, looking for a girl all alone. He may have driven through Claremont 50 times that night to find a victim. Or it could have been someone parked nearby, someone waiting on girls to start walking out of Club Bay View. He could have grabbed her, silenced her, and drug her to his car.

Based on the Karrakatta victim, and other assaults that seem to be related, I think a blitz attack by a hunter is more likely than a taxi attack. But I am not ruling out a taxi driver.

Do you think Karrakatta is related?

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

Hey Sutton

To be honest I havent read up much on the Karrakata rape but having a quick look at the media article its looks to me like it would be unlikely they would have any DNA...if they did have this DNA connection then why didn't they use it back at the start of the CSK investigation when the investigators "were sure this is the same person". I don't think they have anything other than some kind assumed evidence in all honesty and most probably just throwing it out there 15 years later like the mm debacle.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...vestigate-1995-rape-lead-20151016-gkaq8i.html

Yeah probably they have better techniques now but a few things seem out of whack on the surface and correct me if I'm wrong. You're trying to link the Karrakatta method of abduction to the CSK girls but wouldn't they have known the way the girls were grabbed through analysis of the bag, rope, method etc.

Also wouldn't you think its a bit careless by the CSK who is so good he hasn't been caught to just let go of a girl....I dont believe he was honing his technique. Doesn't sound like the CSK I know the method sounds completely different for a few reasons and anyway I'm thinking the CSK wasn't in it for the rape.

As for you opinion on the predator of course its extremely possible...the Karrakatta rapist had no problems doing that and no-one knew a thing when that happened. However, if that is your method of killing 3 girls and becoming the CSK then its a risky one and the odds of getting caught would surely be too high. Who really knows but I reckon the police must have a fair idea the method of abduction.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Yes definitely possible but all 3 of them unlikely and as I say I think its a common reasonable theory that 2 people would have been involved. So whoever was in the passenger window must have been the CSK if no-one has come forward to admit it was them. It would make sense and be too much of a coincidence not to be.

I lean strongly towards a lone wolf.

This is one of the main mysteries of the case - if the person driving the white car seen talking to CG is not the CSK then why didn't they come forward? If that person is the CSK then blitz attack is unlikely.

The general consensus is the sighting of this car wasn't released to the public until 2008. That driver still would have known they were close to the last person to speak to CG and would have known going to police was the right thing to do. Possible reasons they didn't - they got on a plane the next morning and left the country. Or they were a drug dealer and didn't want police sniffing around.

Probability says that the CSK was in this car. But that contradicts other information. I suspect most things in this case are the most likely scenarios with maybe 2 or 3 curve balls. It's the lack of knowing where those 2 or 3 unlikely scenarios are that make this case so confusing.

Question: If the car was a Commodore then why were Macro so tunnel visioned on LW? Surely they knew that there was always a reasonable chance the CSK was someone else and to keep an open mind? Or were they conveniently ignoring this similar to what they did in the Mallard case?

I remember it might have been accepted that the body could easily have been kept for a bit longer being the third victim (more experience and daring) and to maybe use the body to take photographs/videos. Not unreasonable really.

Certainly possible

This wouldn't surprise me at all then. These two seem very sketchy but i remember when I was reading up on them something had me figuring out that it was unlikely. I think Weygers released a video explaining how he wasn't involved and it came across as sincere. Maybe hes a good liar he is a politician I dont know wish I could hear the same from TT

My gut feeling is they aren't involved but I can't rule them out. Circumstantial evidence suggests they are still one of the favourites.

I was of the assumption that he was told this. Your right though Droc could have made this up but I dont see why he would do this when arguing with the police. Would they not confirm this isn't the case that he was ruled out due to other circumstances. Besides TT wasnt interviewed for a significant amount of time so unlikely they looked further and they lied in Drocs formal documents about approaching TT....alarm bells for me.

Without going through it all again, there is no evidence they lied - this was just Droc's perception.

Not sure to be honest I would like to see where he changed his mind on the snuff movie. As for lying because he felt there was no harm in it that would be a strange thing to do if your trying to get your evidence submitted to the ACC and a royal commission.

I'm not going to show you excerpts from our email conversations but I am saying in the beginning he said he had proof it happened. By the time he finished it was merely a theory (you can see this in his final letter where he asks TT if he has guessed right)

Haha I'm no god fearer but this doesn't have much to do with their religion surely. Christabel was above that I would have thought and would not have risen to her ranks in psychology if she was nuts.

There's plenty of intelligent people who are God fearers. They're perfectly sane but in some parts of their life they prioritise faith over logic.

Its interesting isn't it. Thats why gamblers never succeed because if we all knew who the winner is we would all become instant millionaires

The odds are merely based on who has the most circumstantial evidence against them. LW, PW, SR and to a lessr extent Judo are on a knife's edge. They could all get scratched tomorrow.

I've watched too many Melbourne cups to not be aware that the favourite often doesn't win. Who do I think the CSK is? I simply don't know but have LW a nose in front although I know he could be scratched any moment.

I cant see LW or Judo being it because there is only one of them and that's just too hard to subdue a passenger. I think in Judo's case it would be too coincidental that the killer knew the victim and then followed or happened across them in Claremont...plus he didn't know one of them. LW has been grilled too much and despite being a dolt with his stalking he would of been nailed by now with the heat that was on him.

Judo would have the skillset to subdue them. Whilst I don't believe the CSK knew his victims, it actually could be coincidence that he came across them.

He could have been cruising every weekend prepped up and only struck when he came across a girl he knew. He may not have known CG but took a chance and was able to talk her into getting in.

Someone off our radar what about Romauld Zak or Estelle Blackburns ex boyfriend they both seem very legitimate...there are so many options no wonder WAPOL dont know what the **** is going on.

I have Blackburn's ex at 50/1 (Many Leucus)

Romuald Zak - had mental illness issues. I don't believe someone in that state could execute these killings in the organised manner that they were. 100/1.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Hey Sutton

To be honest I havent read up much on the Karrakata rape but having a quick look at the media article its looks to me like it would be unlikely they would have any DNA...if they did have this DNA connection then why didn't they use it back at the start of the CSK investigation when the investigators "were sure this is the same person". I don't think they have anything other than some kind assumed evidence in all honesty and most probably just throwing it out there 15 years later like the mm debacle.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...vestigate-1995-rape-lead-20151016-gkaq8i.html

Yeah probably they have better techniques now but a few things seem out of whack on the surface and correct me if I'm wrong. You're trying to link the Karrakatta method of abduction to the CSK girls but wouldn't they have known the way the girls were grabbed through analysis of the bag, rope, method etc.

Also wouldn't you think its a bit careless by the CSK who is so good he hasn't been caught to just let go of a girl....I dont believe he was honing his technique. Doesn't sound like the CSK I know the method sounds completely different for a few reasons and anyway I'm thinking the CSK wasn't in it for the rape.

As for you opinion on the predator of course its extremely possible...the Karrakatta rapist had no problems doing that and no-one knew a thing when that happened. However, if that is your method of killing 3 girls and becoming the CSK then its a risky one and the odds of getting caught would surely be too high. Who really knows but I reckon the police must have a fair idea the method of abduction.

Whilst I lean towards Macro not having DNA, it's possible that advances in DNA technology have enabled them to get a reading.

It's common for serial killers to progress to killing. Peeping Tom, Burglary, rape are often pre-cursers to serial killing. I do lean towards Karra and CSK being the same person but I'm not completely convinced. What is common between the two is that they are highly planned and organised. He let the Karra victim go and left himself exposed to DNA and forensic evidence. At that point he may have decided to go the whole hog.

I'm no expert on SK's but I have seen many times where SK's say they had an urge to kill people from a young age and worked their way up to it. This could have been more of a sexual thing in that rape was the goal and killing was more of a get rid of evidence strategy. This could explain why he stopped - he doesn't so much have an innate compulsion to kill. He's driven sexually by dominance rather than killing. If anyone does have a better understanding please contribute because I'm merely speculating on that.

 

[Peter Kurten]

As the profiler called Joel off the ABC segment said, I think sexual motivation is the primary driver of these crimes. What else was mentioned in that segment was anger. As to what facts in question they used to come to those two conclusion who knows. There are plenty of serial killers who also abducted raped and released, Robert Long from Florida being an example. What is everyone's thoughts how the killer was familiar with Karrakatta? He must have known that area very well. I have been for a drive through that area twice now and got lost both times, even with the map. I can't imagine you'd want to get lost after just raping someone and letting them go naked bound with a clothes line.

 

[Parkie]

Hey Sutton

To be honest I havent read up much on the Karrakata rape but having a quick look at the media article its looks to me like it would be unlikely they would have any DNA...if they did have this DNA connection then why didn't they use it back at the start of the CSK investigation when the investigators "were sure this is the same person". I don't think they have anything other than some kind assumed evidence in all honesty and most probably just throwing it out there 15 years later like the mm debacle.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...vestigate-1995-rape-lead-20151016-gkaq8i.html

Yeah probably they have better techniques now but a few things seem out of whack on the surface and correct me if I'm wrong. You're trying to link the Karrakatta method of abduction to the CSK girls but wouldn't they have known the way the girls were grabbed through analysis of the bag, rope, method etc.

Also wouldn't you think its a bit careless by the CSK who is so good he hasn't been caught to just let go of a girl....I dont believe he was honing his technique. Doesn't sound like the CSK I know the method sounds completely different for a few reasons and anyway I'm thinking the CSK wasn't in it for the rape.

As for you opinion on the predator of course its extremely possible...the Karrakatta rapist had no problems doing that and no-one knew a thing when that happened. However, if that is your method of killing 3 girls and becoming the CSK then its a risky one and the odds of getting caught would surely be too high. Who really knows but I reckon the police must have a fair idea the method of abduction.

One of the better posts of late (above). Yes as I said the Brickie was wrong re his date of the Taxi drive by as someone said above. He got the wrong day. Sutton; I mentioned Red Dragon, yes that was channel one on Aussie Tv the other night, & I watched it somewhat till I got sleepy. Now decipher that. ffs.. I tire of the blog as it is getting nowhere, yet a good comment comes up from time to time. Credits to those who get it together. Probably won`t help, but certainly won`t hinder.

 

[elastic]

Hey Sutton

To be honest I havent read up much on the Karrakata rape but having a quick look at the media article its looks to me like it would be unlikely they would have any DNA...if they did have this DNA connection then why didn't they use it back at the start of the CSK investigation when the investigators "were sure this is the same person". I don't think they have anything other than some kind assumed evidence in all honesty and most probably just throwing it out there 15 years later like the mm debacle.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...vestigate-1995-rape-lead-20151016-gkaq8i.html

Yeah probably they have better techniques now but a few things seem out of whack on the surface and correct me if I'm wrong. You're trying to link the Karrakatta method of abduction to the CSK girls but wouldn't they have known the way the girls were grabbed through analysis of the bag, rope, method etc.

Also wouldn't you think its a bit careless by the CSK who is so good he hasn't been caught to just let go of a girl....I dont believe he was honing his technique. Doesn't sound like the CSK I know the method sounds completely different for a few reasons and anyway I'm thinking the CSK wasn't in it for the rape.

As for you opinion on the predator of course its extremely possible...the Karrakatta rapist had no problems doing that and no-one knew a thing when that happened. However, if that is your method of killing 3 girls and becoming the CSK then its a risky one and the odds of getting caught would surely be too high. Who really knows but I reckon the police must have a fair idea the method of abduction.

I really like the Droc direction and hope like hell the police gave it a huge amount of thought and investigation. I am very open to all the POI's and like discussing each and everyone of them, including potential outsiders. The Droc episode is certainly one of the most interesting and it probably demanded the most investigating considering how much detail he was able to produce and how many circumstantial facts he gave. In saying that he is definitely not top of my list, but I would not be surprised if his reasoning turned out to be true.

When you say its more likely they got into a vehicle I completely disagree. Most abductions will either occur with two people driving and usually involve a VAN pulling up alongside a victim before the perp in the back jumps out and binds the victim, and or grabs them and throws them into the back of the VAN.

Then when it comes to rapists etc they like to prowl on foot, and also may find comfort in being in control and disabling the victim before then attempted to either transport them or do their dead (Or drag them into a secluded spot).

It is far more common for a perp to be on foot and commit an act that from the safety of his 'easily identifiable' vehicle.

Knowing this it is more than likely the perpetrator parked near by (Down a side alley, in a secluded car park etc) and walked a short distance to an area where he knew someone wold stray, and if it turned out to be a group (or a male) he may have hid in his hiding spot behind something or near or in behind a tree/wall. Then when the right victim made its way down the road from afar (He cold probably see a long distance down the road) he would have prepared to perform a blitz attack to disable the victim and then carry out his dead (In this case bungling them into the vehicle with washing line tied around them). I personally think a choke hold was used, it will silence a victim easily, and immobilise them at the same time, and even at that hour of the night a scream in that particular area wouldn't mean much with all the nighttime noise created from those clubs. And from memory housing wasn't that close, and the housing that is there does not get a very good view of any of the areas where the person/s were abducted. I have walked claremont at night and you can go down lane ways and roads etc without seeing a single soul. Its pretty secluded outside the nightspots and HJ's.

Knowing all this I still cant discount the TAXI theory and believe the Droc theory has a lot of weight and would possibly put it higher up my list if I knew a bit more or could access Droc's 120 page file (Whoever he left this too can you please if you are reading this thread upload it for us to read).

It seems very likely Karrakatta is linked and because of the LCN Analysis undertaken by the godfather of UK DNA LCN Technology they have developed a DNA profile that atleast matches the Karrakatta profile to a very close degree. It seems like the CSK is just a partial with probably less markers than required to use in a court of law, its the Karrakatta profile that seems to be a perfect match for atleast all the partial markers (The marker comparison has been discussed in far more detail earlier in the thread/s).

I wold really like to know if they have determined if this DNA comes from a male or female, I know its assumed male because they assume the atacker, but it could be somehow from a female if the DNA never came from the semen but something else left on the karrakatta victim during the atack.

If Karrakatta is linked then a blitz is highly likely, and he did NOT pull up along side his victim, he waited, and then when the victim had her back turned he came from no where and surprised her before bungling her into the vehicle.

He may have got lucky and used a diff MO and picked one up, but I doubt it.

 

[elastic]

Noelene Patterson worked at the Nedlands golf club, and Denise Brown was taken from a bus stop on Stirling Highway Fremantle. The locations are a remarkable coincidence.

Also, it was portrayed that David Birnie was the driving force behind the crimes. I know someone who had extended official contact with him in Casuarina Prison, and their view was that he was of such weak character compared to Catherine, that it was actually she who was in charge, and that it has he carrying out the abductions upon her direction, just to please her. I was also told at the time by a member of the WAPOL that it was suspected that Catherine personally carried out the actual killings after actively participating in the rapes. The axe murder in particular was noted. The victim (Denise Brown) was reported to have been liked by him, and Catherine became infuriated. She was supposedly stabbed while he was actually raping her. That sounds more like someone who is very angry doing it, not someone in the process of.
What I found interesting was that Catherine was once reported to be the passenger in the front of the car and David the driver, which would make the dynamic of subduing the victims very interesting. She was seen drinking out of a can, and reportedly used sleeping tablets to subdue their victims. I wonder if she gave the victims spiked drinks at the time of capture. I wonder if the CSK did the same. Drink spiking has been pretty widely rumored in Perth for many years.

He had trained as a jockey, and was presumably small and weak, while she was reported to be powerful and capable of remarkable violence. He has been described to me as 'pathetic', and his suicide as anything but. Apparently he was so universally hated in prison, by officers and inmates alike, that the official investigation was allegedly only ever going to reach the determination of suicide, and that it was inevitable and eagerly anticipated by many.

Word was Catherine was the real monster, but she managed to pass herself off as the accomplice in the hope of getting a lighter sentence.

Anyway, off topic, and I'll let it go at that.

You do realize he is suspected of two abductions prior to meeting Catherine?

David Birnie had access to a yellow vehicle in Bunbury which has been suspected of being the vehicle involved in two child abductions, One from Collie (Lisa Mott) last seen near a vellow vehicle (I wont go into vehicle specifics), and also Annette Deverell who went missing from Mandurah near the post office, this vehicle was thought to be the same vehicle later identified in the Lisa Mott abduction a month later.

He was more than likely up to no good prior to meeting Catherine, and was probably too embarrassed to tell her how he used to abduct and murder little girls instead of teenage woman (Or pretended he was a killing virgin to make the kills with Catherine seem more intimate) and was scared she would leave him. He stuck to his guns and topped himself before ever revealing his other victims.

He is almost certainly responsible for these crimes.

 

[elastic]

As the profiler called Joel off the ABC segment said, I think sexual motivation is the primary driver of these crimes. What else was mentioned in that segment was anger. As to what facts in question they used to come to those two conclusion who knows. There are plenty of serial killers who also abducted raped and released, Robert Long from Florida being an example. What is everyone's thoughts how the killer was familiar with Karrakatta? He must have known that area very well. I have been for a drive through that area twice now and got lost both times, even with the map. I can't imagine you'd want to get lost after just raping someone and letting them go naked bound with a clothes line.

Someone the CSK knows has died there, be it family or a close friend, and he is raping his victims near the tombstone of this person, he may even be killing the girls here before then moving them to his dumping spot.

He has spent alot of time here visiting someone, and it may go back further than a friend and be a close family member that has some kind of deeply ingrained involvement in the killers life.

If its a close friend then I reckon that friend was involved with some nasty activities eg. may have been a driver for an attempted/ or actual rape, may have helped with a kill in the past and it may have been their dark secret that he took to his grave, now the killer wants to share his new victims with this close friend because the friend is so significant to the killer.

More than likely the case.

 

[Elwood_1]

Someone the CSK knows has died there, be it family or a close friend, and he is raping his victims near the tombstone of this person, he may even be killing the girls here before then moving them to his dumping spot.

He has spent alot of time here visiting someone, and it may go back further than a friend and be a close family member that has some kind of deeply ingrained involvement in the killers life.

If its a close friend then I reckon that friend was involved with some nasty activities eg. may have been a driver for an attempted/ or actual rape, may have helped with a kill in the past and it may have been their dark secret that he took to his grave, now the killer wants to share his new victims with this close friend because the friend is so significant to the killer.

More than likely the case.

Are you aware of/suggesting LW's friend that we don't seem to know very much about?

That makes an interesting scenario.

 

[elastic]

Are you aware of/suggesting LW's friend that we don't seem to know very much about?

That makes an interesting scenario.

I am not suggesting that, although it makes for an eerie coincidence. If it was LW or any other potential POI, I definitely think Karrakatta was chosen for the reasons I mentioned. The Killer may have visited the grave regularly at night, hence he would know just how secluded the place was, he may have cracked beers open above the grave stone and pretended to share one with his friend/family member, and built up his comfort zone from there. Or from regular night visits he felt totally comfortable. He may not have killed/raped next to the grave stone of his friend/family member, however it may have been near by in an area he knew was secluded and chosen that spot when visiting another area of the cemetery (Where the gravestone may be located).

I wasn't hugely convinced on LW but after reading many posts for Bart I am more than convinced that he cannot be ruled out, and like Bart I believe the Police have not officially ruled him out and that the news papers may have jumped the gun declaring his innocence.

There was a report saying the only reason LW wasn't ruled out officially is because there may be significant legal action/compensation if they admitted he was no longer a suspect, but I wonder if they are just making the guy (LW) feel as though the heat is off him when it may very well not be.

The friend definitely sounds like a dodgy character, hanging around a loner, and who knows what they would have participated in if Lance was in fact a serial killer or harboured thoughts on becoming one.

Papertrail started to investigate Lance and the friend and is waiting on some information from a guy in hospital recovering from major heart surgery, but he vows he will posts his finding when he eventually gets the critical information he is missing. Papertrail is on a well deserved break right now so I am sure when he returns he will have something more to add possibly. I think he has identified who the friend is, just needs to confirm it, we did conclude we all thought based on where LW lived and hung about his friend was more than likely also from a similar area and Karrakatta more than likely would be the cemetery he was buried, although we could not prove this obviously without his actual name.

Lets hope the police thoroughly investigated this angle too, don't hold your breath.

 

[Elwood_1]

You do realize he is suspected of two abductions prior to meeting Catherine?

David Birnie had access to a yellow vehicle in Bunbury which has been suspected of being the vehicle involved in two child abductions, One from Collie (Lisa Mott) last seen near a vellow vehicle (I wont go into vehicle specifics), and also Annette Deverell who went missing from Mandurah near the post office, this vehicle was thought to be the same vehicle later identified in the Lisa Mott abduction a month later.

He was more than likely up to no good prior to meeting Catherine, and was probably too embarrassed to tell her how he used to abduct and murder little girls instead of teenage woman (Or pretended he was a killing virgin to make the kills with Catherine seem more intimate) and was scared she would leave him. He stuck to his guns and topped himself before ever revealing his other victims.

He is almost certainly responsible for these crimes.

They did make an interesting couple. They apparently had a near miss with a girl near one of the dump sites, and it was described that Catherine did the talking while he sat quietly with his head down in the drivers seat and didn't even look at the prey. Mott and Deverell aside, they seem to have had their system down pat. I wonder if there were others to the four he confessed to.

He was clearly in it for the rape, and even though she would join in or watch, it seems she may have been there mainly for the killing. Female serial killers are fairly rare. I wonder what it was that turned her in that direction, and if she had an inkling that Mott/Deverell had been carried out by him, and that was why she went back to him after so long.

Oh, based entirely on the story I was told, his 'suicide' may not have been by his own hand. I was told he was too much of a coward to ever take his own life voluntarily. Perhaps a different form of justice was dealt out that night.

 

[GreenDevil]

Hey Sutton

To be honest I havent read up much on the Karrakata rape but having a quick look at the media article its looks to me like it would be unlikely they would have any DNA...if they did have this DNA connection then why didn't they use it back at the start of the CSK investigation when the investigators "were sure this is the same person". I don't think they have anything other than some kind assumed evidence in all honesty and most probably just throwing it out there 15 years later like the mm debacle.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...vestigate-1995-rape-lead-20151016-gkaq8i.html

Yeah probably they have better techniques now but a few things seem out of whack on the surface and correct me if I'm wrong. You're trying to link the Karrakatta method of abduction to the CSK girls but wouldn't they have known the way the girls were grabbed through analysis of the bag, rope, method etc.

Also wouldn't you think its a bit careless by the CSK who is so good he hasn't been caught to just let go of a girl....I dont believe he was honing his technique. Doesn't sound like the CSK I know the method sounds completely different for a few reasons and anyway I'm thinking the CSK wasn't in it for the rape.

As for you opinion on the predator of course its extremely possible...the Karrakatta rapist had no problems doing that and no-one knew a thing when that happened. However, if that is your method of killing 3 girls and becoming the CSK then its a risky one and the odds of getting caught would surely be too high. Who really knows but I reckon the police must have a fair idea the method of abduction.

They do have a DNA profile from Karrakatta. The reason why they never used it whilst investigating the CSK crimes, is they never connected it to the CSK until last year, and I believe the connection was made using some sort of other forensic technique/discovery or at best the connection may have been made from a partial DNA profile from one of he CSK girls. The Karrakatta rape was always a consideration for Macro, but unfortunately some very experienced detectives and profilers, ruled the offender out as a career rapist and not being able to progress to killings.

***I can't provide any links or articles regarding this info, this is just information I know about the case*********

 

[Sutton]

They do have a DNA profile from Karrakatta. The reason why they never used it whilst investigating the CSK crimes, is they never connected it to the CSK until last year, and I believe the connection was made using some sort of other forensic technique/discovery or at best the connection may have been made from a partial DNA profile from one of he CSK girls. The Karrakatta rape was always a consideration for Macro, but unfortunately some very experienced detectives and profilers, ruled the offender out as a career rapist and not being able to progress to killings.

***I can't provide any links or articles regarding this info, this is just information I know about the case*********

Makes perfect sense to me. But I thought they made the DNA connection in 2009? And it was just released to the public last year. Based on what you know, did they make the DNA connection in 2009 or 2015?

 

[marble]

The Karrakatta rape was always a consideration for Macro, but unfortunately some very experienced detectives and profilers, ruled the offender out as a career rapist and not being able to progress to killings.

***I can't provide any links or articles regarding this info, this is just information I know about the case*********

If this is so, they're completely inept! I mean that's completely insane to assume imo: SO MANY serial killers have also been serial rapists, exhibitionists, voyeurs, etc. before (and even concurrently) with their murders. Not to mention that the brutality of the Karrakatta victim's attack could have ended her life, and it's possible that her attacker planned to kill her or possibly left her for dead.

 

[Parkie]

The rope clue was a rag clue actually f wit.