Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[elastic]

They have a ballistics database they could adapt. It is more, how long to enter the data, than pull it out. Probably 5 seconds to pull out the match

And if the Ballistics data was was 1/8th to 1/16th 1/32nd the size of a full ballistic profile and was run through the same database you would expect a result to be confirmed every 5 seconds?

Or were you assuming I was talking about a full DNA profile being compared through the national database when I just posted two paragraphs on LCN DNA Analysis which is usually used in cases where you have an incomplete profile eg. Partial profile, and especially in cases where the partial profile is so small its pretty much useless?

 

[crabstick]

It depends what the machine is
The database is used for the analysis of rifling on damaged ballistics. Hows that for a partial matching machine. What da ya reckon?

And if the Ballistics data was was 1/8th to 1/16th 1/32nd the size of a full ballistic profile and was run through the same database you would expect a result to be confirmed every 5 seconds?

Or were you assuming I was talking about a full DNA profile being compared through the national database when I just posted two paragraphs on LCN DNA Analysis which is usually used in cases where you have an incomplete profile eg. Partial profile, and especially in cases where the partial profile is so small its pretty much useless?

 

[crabstick]

Friday’s edition of the Post also reported that police now believed the victim from the Karrakatta rape was tied up with washing line, not telephone wire as previously reported.

The washing line was found to be impregnated with material used in screen printing, the paper reported.

In addition, the newspaper said fibres found on Jane Rimmer’s body were found to match the upholstery of a Holden VS Commodore.

BBM
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/6db6d2459747d238017280fc03b67c97

 

[elastic]

This is entirely unsubstantiated whether these are even linked but lets 'assume'

1988 Julie Cutler- (Possibly) First Kill, may have been first rape too, possibly knew the victim and had a huge grudge or hatred for them, was not caught and became incredibly confident

1989- Swanbourne Drive in Rape Attempt- Abduction from Cottosloe Hotel Car Park- confident after killing his first victim that he can abduct this victim because of her drunken state, this is opportunistic and he grabs her from a public area whilst lurking around his home suburb. Paranoid he may be caught he stops attempting to rape and kill until he regathers his confidence

(Could have been unreported attempted rapes during this period that we do not know about, or the fear of failing in 1989 made him too paranoid to attempt anything untill 1994.)

1994, October: A woman (31) entered a taxi near Club Bayview. A man hiding in the back of the taxi grabbed her. She jumped out and broke her leg. Possibly related- May have had a friend that was in sick health that wanted a piece of the action and came along for the ride, this was a botched attempt and they may have had to lay low for a small period. This could also be totally unrelated.

1994, New Year's Day: A man dragged a woman from her car after she left Club Bayview. He attempted to sexually assault her but she fought him off. - Friend is too scared to attempt another rape or is too sick to come along again, The CSK thinks its easier to do this alone and reattempts to find a victim and fails

1995, February: A girl (17) left Club Bayview - she was tied with electrical cord and left for dead in Karrakatta Cemetery. She had been abducted walking home from the club. CSK gets a victim and rapes her and leaves in her in such a state reports suggest she was 'left for dead'

1996 (Jan 27): Sarah Ellen Spiers (18) - never found - first to go missing. She left Club Bayview - last seen in telephone booth, Stirling Highway, Claremont. Police believe a golden sunflower key ring may help find Sarah. CSK makes sure he not only kills this victim, but hides her so the evidence is never found (Especially if he raped her and left his DNA). The CSK also realises that spending two hours digging a shallow grave is a good way to be caught or seen and decides next time to dump and run.

1996 (May 3): Woman (21) indecently assaulted in laneway behind Club Bayview. 2am assailant ripped her skirt off and her head was bashed against a wall six times before she fled. CSK fails to abduct and uses a brutal blitz attack to try and render the victim unconcious but she fights back and survives leaving another witness behind. The CSK is not worried as he came from behind and was not seen, she does not have a description and he knows this, she was also too disorientated and ran away from him and never turned back to see if he was following so there is no chance of being identified.

1996 (Jun 8): Jane Louise Rimmer (23) found murdered in bushland at Wellard, 35km south of Perth, last seen Continental Hotel. CSK kills and rapes her leaving the victim naked in bush land driving almost an hour south and deviating slightly to a rural location visited very infrequently at the time

1997 (Mar 14): Ciara Eilish Glennon (27) disappeared from Stirling Highway, Claremont. Had been at the Continental Hotel that night. Body found at Eglinton, 45km north of Perth, on April 3. Missing from the body: a silver Claddagh brooch. No chance of raping victim as she fights back hard and may possible be at that time of the month, gets off on the kill and dumps her still fully clothed in another rural location in a completely opposite direction.

(HUGE AMOUNT OF HEAT SO LAYS LOW- MAY HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS A POI/SUSPECT, OR BE UNDER COVERT SURVEILLANCE- GIVES UP KILLING, HAS DISCIPLINE TO GET BY BUT DEPRESSED OR STARTS A NEW LIFE WITH A FAMILY DURING THIS PERIOD)

2000 (Nov 8): Sarah McMahon (20) disappeared. Left her Stirling Highway workplace 5pm Friday, disappeared, her car found abandoned at Swan Districts Hosp - Might be connected, might not. If connected resumed after a large period of laying low due to the heat attracted on the POI during this case for one of the other killings

 

[elastic]

Here is the news article that contains a lot of information on Richard Edward Dorrough obtained via the 1-day coroner's inquest (re Sara Lee Davey's disappearance) held in Broome April 2016.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...rd-dorrough-behind-broome-womans-disa/7304038

I don't think its Dorrough, He is like an Eric Edgar Cooke type serial killer, constantly changing MO's he was obviously consumed by grief too so I doubt this is his doing.

You also said you were going to post a Lance Williams write up, where is this? why have you never posted this? why say you will and never do, what did you find out, if the sick man recovering from a major heart surgery isnt able to confirm one thing can you post the other things you claim to have found out?

Why the silence of this write up?

 

[crabstick]

Here is the dataset with the hook in Millar rd around to Woolcoot. It also shows the drain that Jane was found not far from?

Millar rd becomes Duckpond road down a little.

 

[crabstick]

Im glad someone decided to skip this important piece of info. Who are the police officers talking about?

Lee concedes the individual I have named is known as a character in Perth, that he is a possibility.

Reference: Debi, Marshall, 2007. The Devil's Garden: The Claremont Serial Killings. 2nd ed. Australia: Random House.

 

[marble]

This is entirely unsubstantiated whether these are even linked but lets 'assume'

1997 (Mar 14): Ciara Eilish Glennon (27) disappeared from Stirling Highway, Claremont. Had been at the Continental Hotel that night. Body found at Eglinton, 45km north of Perth, on April 3. Missing from the body: a silver Claddagh brooch. No chance of raping victim as she fights back hard and may possible be at that time of the month, gets off on the kill and dumps her still fully clothed in another rural location in a completely opposite direction.]

Interesting timeline with plausible scenarios if it truly was LW (and his fried) - but a few times now the "could be her time of the month" scenario has been brought up here regarding Ciara (maybe always by yourself, or maybe by others as well, I can't recall) and honestly that just makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. Why would a rapist who terrorizes and kills his victims be swayed by some menstrual blood? Lord knows these poor young women were likely to be bloodied *everywhere* in the course of the attack - I mean seriously, what do you think happens to a large percentage of women during rapes?

(Apologies to rape victims reading this thread but it needs to be said) Not to mention that he either strangled them (which usually results in incontinence of all kinds) or cut their throats. Plus, if someone is terrified and in pain there's a very good chance they are going to soil themselves from some end or another.

I'm honestly stymied about this theory. Why is it floating around? What am I missing here?

 

[Elwood_1]

Interesting timeline with plausible scenarios if it truly was LW (and his fried) - but a few times now the "could be her time of the month" scenario has been brought up here regarding Ciara (maybe always by yourself, or maybe by others as well, I can't recall) and honestly that just makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. Why would a rapist who terrorizes and kills his victims be swayed by some menstrual blood? Lord knows these poor young women were likely to be bloodied *everywhere* in the course of the attack - I mean seriously, what do you think happens to a large percentage of women during rapes?

(Apologies to rape victims reading this thread but it needs to be said) Not to mention that he either strangled them (which usually results in incontinence of all kinds) or cut their throats. Plus, if someone is terrified and in pain there's a very good chance they are going to soil themselves from some end or another.

I'm honestly stymied about this theory. Why is it floating around? What am I missing here?

I read somewhere recently that killer/rapists usually go the backdoor for inflicting their pain. I wonder about that menstrual theory too.

 

[Elwood_1]

Interesting article from the Daily Mail on the processing of old untested rape kits in the USA:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...s-forgotten-backlogged-rape-kits-reveals.html

Text:

NEW INSIGHT ON THE BEHAVIOURS OF RAPISTS
The researchers also found that serial and one-time rapists behave differently.
Crimes committed by a serial offender often involve kidnapping, along with verbally and physically threatening the victims.
In these cases, weapons are often involved. But, they found that serial offenders were less likely to restrain and injure victims during the attack.
One-time offenders, however, were more likely to punch, slap, or hold down/restrain a victim.
They also found that serial offenders were more likely to commit an assault outside, in a vehicle, or in a garage, while a one-time offender would attack in a house, whether it be their own, the victim's or that of a third party.
And, 58 percent of serial offenders commit all of their crimes in the same type of setting.
The study also revealed that one-time offenders are more likely to commit sexual assaults with other people, like in gang rapes, while serial offenders were more likely to be strangers to their victims.

WHAT THE STUDY FOUND
Examining 243 sexual assaults, they found that more than half – 51 percent – were tied to serial offenders, who often had a more violent and extensive criminal history than one-time offenders.
Among serial offenders, 26 percent had been arrested for sexual assault before that particular crime, while 60 percent were arrested for an unrelated sexual assault later on.
And, they found that 'an overwhelming majority' of rapists have a history of felonies.
Of all serial rapists in the study, 74 percent had at least one prior felony arrest, and 95 percent had at least one felony after.
For one-time offenders, they found 51 percent had prior felony arrests, and 78 percent had at least one subsequently.

 

[crabstick]

I wondered why the persistent mention of menstruation too. Lots of mention by the same person without any reason. I think you are right. Why would a psychopath be so considerate? It sounds more like fantasy.

Police have cleared current POIs via DNA. They have all been forced to give DNA swab.

Interesting timeline with plausible scenarios if it truly was LW (and his fried) - but a few times now the "could be her time of the month" scenario has been brought up here regarding Ciara (maybe always by yourself, or maybe by others as well, I can't recall) and honestly that just makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. Why would a rapist who terrorizes and kills his victims be swayed by some menstrual blood? Lord knows these poor young women were likely to be bloodied *everywhere* in the course of the attack - I mean seriously, what do you think happens to a large percentage of women during rapes?

(Apologies to rape victims reading this thread but it needs to be said) Not to mention that he either strangled them (which usually results in incontinence of all kinds) or cut their throats. Plus, if someone is terrified and in pain there's a very good chance they are going to soil themselves from some end or another.

I'm honestly stymied about this theory. Why is it floating around? What am I missing here?

 

[crabstick]

If Ciara was menstruating as suggested, she would be less likely to seek out intimacy. This suggests she didnt whip off with a boy of interest.
Ciara also had a wedding appointment the next morning. Hair I think. mmm Someone other than the family knew what she was doing.

Jane was 'dragged' which suggests one person placed the body. Janes watch has more than likely stopped which suggests that police have a date stamp of sorts. Police also derived motive from the watch. So the culprit didn't take the watch, but took, a sunflower keyring, and a claddagh broach as trophies? So as I suggested some gazillion posts back, the culprit had a possible infatuation with patterns of such, and their representation.

Why take low value key ring, and broach as trophy, yet leave a higher value watch?

Why would a rapist who terrorizes and kills his victims be swayed by some menstrual blood?

 

[Bartholemeus]

I think honestly that they do have DNA for two reasons.

1. They took DNA from almost everyone they possibly could. They always said that 'Future Advances" may help solve the case, eg. hinting they had something in the bag, and in the future they will one day be able to get that vital piece of evidence to get a conviction. eg. DNA.

2. a) There has been reports that LCN (Low Copy Number) expert. Dr Jonathan Whitaker has been attending Perth to work on the case. If true, It means they have the 'Stranger' DNA that was reported in the Post newspaper articles on file as evidence, and it is of very little value because its such a useless partial profile that it can at best rule a few suspects out, and do very little else when narrowing down suspects/POI's that share similar DNA structures and markers. You would not bother to get this expert in to do any analysis using the LCN technique which can build a profile from literally just a few cells that can be left from anything including skin or sweat and can be a millionth of the size of a grain of sand and still be analysed by some experts to build an almost complete profile.

2 b) The LCN technique must have only started to be used in 2015. The reports clearly state that WAPOL visted Dr Jonathan Whitaker and then he visted Perth to 'work on the case' if true then he has not had a huge amount of time to build the DNA profile into something that can be used to rule in and out any suspects with absolute certainty. He must have been able to rule enough of the identifying loci in to make a connection to Karakatta, however I thought they made the Karrakatta connection with the DNA much earlier, around 2008, so I wonder if they specifically targetted building a profile to match against the Karrakatta profile once enough markers and loci could be matched between the two profiles. The reports seem to make it a certainty that a connection was made with DNA, although you never know and the link could be a different forensic link and the DNA profile has only recently been matched to Karrakatta and it was just assumed that the they must have been connected because a few loci matched exactly and that narrowed their focus and made them convinced, and maybe Dr Jonathan Whitaker confirmed this for them recently. I wonder how long it takes to crawl the DNA database of almost a million and try and match a near useless profile to all the others in the Database and whether new software needs to be created for this?

I do think the DNA profile that they obtained (The 'Stranger DNA') must have been useless though for many many years and they new of techniques being worked on in areas where they could one day maybe use of the profile that they had obtained, I am surprised it has not been contaminated given just how sensitive the DNA can be when analysed using LCN techniques.

Firstly, good post. This is the first time that someone has offered some logical reasoning behind why they think there is DNA. I have made many comments regarding this, offered up reasons why I slightly lean towards there no being DNA, and not one person until now has offered up a reason or wanted to delve deeper into the issue. Just silence until a later point when they pipe in with "but they have DNA".


1. This suggests they took samples but at the time were unable to get a profile. They would have taken samples from the scenes and felt that maybe later they'd be able to get something.

aside: I think in a Green River Killer doco I watched it took a long time to wait for technology advancements to catch up and get a DNA profile. I believe they had a sample and every time they tested it it would degenerate meaning every time they did a test they were risking losing what they had. I wonder how many times Macro have been to the well?

2.I've read this article a few times but don't have it handy. Are you able to post a link? BC stated that they discovered a DNA link in 2008. Why LCN 7 years later? Maybe they discovered something in 2008 but couldn't get much of a profile and only since LCN have they been able to get one?

To get a match to Karra you'd think they'd need a reasonably full profile. If there's other forensic links then maybe not so much. But if there's no other forensic link then you'd have to think they'd have a profile to narrow it down considerably.

There's still too many inconsistencies for me and I think there's just as much chance Macro are running an operation.

As for software - I'd assume they have a reasonably efficient algorithm and gnarly CPU with a tonne of RAM. I'm a complete novice on DNA but I'd assume very quickly they be able to say "out of all the people on our DNA database, one group of people can be ruled out, where as another group of people can't be ruled out".

 

[Bartholemeus]

Interesting timeline with plausible scenarios if it truly was LW (and his fried) - but a few times now the "could be her time of the month" scenario has been brought up here regarding Ciara (maybe always by yourself, or maybe by others as well, I can't recall) and honestly that just makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. Why would a rapist who terrorizes and kills his victims be swayed by some menstrual blood? Lord knows these poor young women were likely to be bloodied *everywhere* in the course of the attack - I mean seriously, what do you think happens to a large percentage of women during rapes?

(Apologies to rape victims reading this thread but it needs to be said) Not to mention that he either strangled them (which usually results in incontinence of all kinds) or cut their throats. Plus, if someone is terrified and in pain there's a very good chance they are going to soil themselves from some end or another.

I'm honestly stymied about this theory. Why is it floating around? What am I missing here?

There are a few reasonable explanations;

1. The CSK could be sexually naive. This part is not about killing, but about sex. If he's killing people we already know he's got some wrong stuff going on in his head. He also might be a bit OCD. He might find the thought of sex with a girl menstruating, disgusting and dirty.

2. CG founght like 10 drunk Irishmen and he killed her and as he's not into necro he just dumped her and skipped the sex

3. He didn't rape any of the girls. His sexual ritual was something else.


It's heavily speculated that throats were cut and CG was not raped and was on her period. If true, he's comfortable with blood but for some reason did't have sex with CG.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Police have cleared current POIs via DNA. They have all been forced to give DNA swab.

How would you know this since police haven't commented either way?

 

[crabstick]

So, it wasnt printing components as someone said. It was not a red herring as someone said.

So the material impregnated in the washing line was ink? What other material from freaking screen printing impregnates washing line?

The washing line was found to be impregnated with material used in screen printing, the paper reported.
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/6db6d2459747d238017280fc03b67c97

 

[Coldpizza]

Admin Note

Anymore personalizing of posts will result in a lengthy time out. No questions asked.

 

[crabstick]

So the forensic link between the rape at Karrakatta, and Ciaras murder more than likely is the washing line, impregnated with the screen printing material.

That means someone screen printing over that period, whether that is on a professional basis. Who prints St Patricks day paraphernalia in WA for the day? If only we knew the material on the washing line. We have a rapist with a van, washing line and screen printing material.

If police have link from Karrakatta rape to Ciara. And police have DNA from naked rape victim running to hospital a short distance away.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/6db6d2459747d238017280fc03b67c97

 

[Laymaker]

Hey Papertrail, I'd like to review your points about the MAP, since a lot of your statements were directed towards my original post. I hope you can calmly read this post and be objective about this issue. Here is what I said in my original post:

POI Notes

Judo Man (JM) and the officially named suspect who practiced martial arts
There is a real possibility that Judo Man (JM) could know who was being referred to in the CIA documentary. According to posts here from users who have seen his Facebook:

- JM was in tournaments as early as 22, and likely was involved in martial arts in the ten years leading up to the murders
- The suspect named in the CIA documentary was 34 years old when JM was 34-36 (depending on interpretation)
- They were both in Perth, at least during the murders. Population in 1996 was 1.3 million.
- The 34-year-old suspect was involved in martial arts to such an extent that he was partially identified by this description
- JM is heavily involved in martial arts as well according to users here who have seen his Facebook
- JM and the suspect are both English
- JM and the suspect were both presumed or confirmed to be near Claremont

I'm not saying JM is the suspect and I'm not saying he knew who was suspected before it was announced, but there is at least a reasonable chance that he may have been able to figure out who was being referred to after the fact.

I wonder if there is available data from tournaments or other rosters related to martial arts from 1994-1997 that would have had 34-year-old martial artists on them.

Note that the header I used for this post was "Judo Man (JM) and the officially named suspect who practiced martial arts" which should be read in the same way you would read the phrase "Romeo and Juliet" or "The Prince and the Pauper". You seem to have misinterpreted my writing through a lapse in reading comprehension and you're now misconstruing what I said. My intention was to consider the possibility that there is any significant connection between the man who appeared on the CIA doc (called SD or JM on this forum) and the suspect declared in the documentary as 'MAP'. I was very explicit that I wasn't trying to say that JM/SD is the actual suspect. I wanted to bring up this particular idea because lots of people have wondered about JM/SD's somewhat peculiar, or at least conspicuous, appearance in the documentary. Maybe he was brought into the documentary to provoke the actual MAP suspect. I consider this a reasonable discussion to have and I think your references to defamation laws are erroneous. I have no interest in discussing this with someone who can't examine the issue objectively.

Judo Man (JM) and the officially named suspect who practiced martial arts please provide proof that the person you are referring to has been officially named as a SUSPECT who practiced martial arts as you have stated. There are 1000s of males who practise martial arts who may have been 34yo in 1996. Please stop your unfounded inferences.

I'm not saying JM is the suspect YES YOU DID AND ARE

Because it is pure and utter bloody speculation and defamation that is why. Secondly the original poster of the article I replied to stated JM was a SUSPECT. There is a world of difference between and NAMED suspect and a POI. We have been through this countless times. The police advised on the CIA documentary that the MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT worked with Sarah Spiers. There is no evidence this man worked with Sarah Spiers. There are thousands of people that practise martial arts and Judo is only one discipline of martial arts. GET IT ! The person whose name you have now defamed by detailing it here, was also not 34yo in 1996.

 

[Bartholemeus]

If Ciara was menstruating as suggested, she would be less likely to seek out intimacy. This suggests she didnt whip off with a boy of interest.

It's been well established that she left Conti on her own and was trying to get home. If she was looking for intimacy she wouldn't have been short of offers at the Conti.

Ciara also had a wedding appointment the next morning. Hair I think. mmm Someone other than the family knew what she was doing.

What are you suggesting? Someone knew she had a hair appointment the next day so somehow knew she would be alone and vulnerable at 12am the night before on Stirling Hwy?

Jane was 'dragged' which suggests one person placed the body.

She was probably dragged. Not definite though.

Police also derived motive from the watch. So the culprit didn't take the watch, but took, a sunflower keyring, and a claddagh broach as trophies? So as I suggested some gazillion posts back, the culprit had a possible infatuation with patterns of such, and their representation.

So you're saying the CSK's motive for killing was to get his hands sunflower keyring and claddagh brooch? Would have been easy to just buy one wouldn't it?

I find it really hard to see how this has anything at all to do with motive?

Why take low value key ring, and broach as trophy, yet leave a higher value watch?

1. Maybe the watch came off as he was dragging her and was lost?
2. Maybe the other items are more personal?