Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[Spooks-R-Us]

This makes sense!

Would be also interesting to note where the building is (mentioned in the Post article) in relation to JR's work place. Perhaps not only did the CSK go back to the KK site regularly, but also 'bunked' off from work in the unused building.

It does appear that the CSK returns to the same scenes - if we consider Claremont/Bay View Terrace 3 times. We can also consider that JR is potentially connected via the KK link. Effectively her work place could be considered as KK.

If we take it one step further (and some people won't agree with this) - let's consider JC and Cottesloe abduction. Both are from the same place also.

But back to the KK/JR implication - I think you are onto something Spooks R Us!

EDIT - Claremont/Bayview Terrace could be considered more than 3 times if we consider some of the attacks.

Thanks Spinnaker![emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji4]

 

[Trueblue2017]

Can a subject matter expert please explain exactly what "familial DNA" is and how exactly it can be related back to a potential perp?

does it mean;
mum, dad, brother or sister, or
uncles, aunties, cousins, nieces or nephews, or even
second cousins and second aunties and uncles
or does it depend on what the source is, and a number of other variables? Age of sample, quantity etc.

 

[JoWa]

Hi Spinnaker and GucciGal

Thanks!

Here's my two cents - I googled the childcare and its on 49 Carrington Rd Nedlands. Unusual thing about Carrington Rd is that it backs up on Government Rd and it looks like most of the businesses along there have access on both streets.

I reckon our CSK visited his KK rape site regularly and loitered around the area, possibly spying Jane (if she worked there) and then CSK continued to stalk Jane.

I think there are two 'backdoor' entrances to the cemetery along Government Rd about 181m and 208m from the Government Rd side of the childcare centre.

Maybe Jane parked on the cemetery side too.

Then I reckon CSK manipulated it that he 'casually' bumped into Jane and maybe they became interested in each other. Even maybe dating? .

.... fast forward a bit.....

So the MM video could be CSK picking up JANE from Conti in early days of their courting. However then something went HORRIBLY wrong and Jane unfortunately ended up in Wellard. (JMO)

What do u think??

My first thought if I saw a guy visiting a cemetery on a regular basis would be that he recently lost someone. Your guard would go down and you would be very sympathetic. Obviously a sweet guy in mourning so I might say "I'm going out with friends tonight why don't you meet us there", CSK says "ok but I have to work will be off at whatever time.".

She would probably work the same days and times each week,so not hard getting onto the same schedule to bump into her.

It is shown in the ctv footage that she looks at her watch, maybe she had agreed to meet up with him but her friends wanted to go home early so she stayed on not wanting to be a no show.

Good thinking Spooks


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[Spinnaker]

Ok I am going to chuck in another Random re the ClaremontGhost Hint videos - because I think it is important to 'think outside of the box' and consider the random whilst sleuthing.

It is mentioned that Hint 9 of the ClaremontGhost Hint videos was a song named White Flag by Dido - link to song below:

[video=youtube;j-fWDrZSiZs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-fWDrZSiZs[/video]

There are a few observations:

1. If the CSK has a type, then Dido certainly fits this 'type'.
2. There is a 'stalker-ish' feel about the video - or perhaps 'viewed from a far' and paths crossing.
3. The bar scene is interesting also.

 

[JoWa]

Agree with your facst Retpi..but...
How did the DNA get there? We have to look at all possibilities to be fair!

Very true. Maybe we could look at possible defence theories.




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[BReVeTTe]

on familial DNA - and apologies for any repetition,as i have a feeling there was previous discussion on this but am unable to locate - was a possible connection between BRE and adrian bayley (formerly edwards) sleuthed out of the equation?

adrian bayley, having lived in perth, was investigated on an information report linking him with the claremont killings, but was eliminated as a suspect, and from memory, i think this had something to do with the fact he was incarcerated in WA at the time of the claremont spree(?)
not long after, in 2000, adrian ernest edwards - born July 14, 1971 (who grew up in melbourne with parents Ernest & Christine Edwards, 3sisters & a brother) changed his name from edwards to "bayley" by deed poll.

name change>
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/a-history-that-led-to-rape-murder-20130619-2ohxx.html

MO + >
http://www.************.au/adrian-bayley-criminal-record/

2000-2001, detectives attempt statements from 16 alleged st.kilda sex worker victims >
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/remote/...s/news-story/75929e1ea27569a69f6e398ad4242304


[emoji887]

 

[Spinnaker]

Hi Spinnaker and GucciGal

Thanks!

Here's my two cents - I googled the childcare and its on 49 Carrington Rd Nedlands. Unusual thing about Carrington Rd is that it backs up on Government Rd and it looks like most of the businesses along there have access on both streets.

I reckon our CSK visited his KK rape site regularly and loitered around the area, possibly spying Jane (if she worked there) and then CSK continued to stalk Jane.

I think there are two 'backdoor' entrances to the cemetery along Government Rd about 181m and 208m from the Government Rd side of the childcare centre.

Maybe Jane parked on the cemetery side too.

Then I reckon CSK manipulated it that he 'casually' bumped into Jane and maybe they became interested in each other. Even maybe dating? .

.... fast forward a bit.....

So the MM video could be CSK picking up JANE from Conti in early days of their courting. However then something went HORRIBLY wrong and Jane unfortunately ended up in Wellard. (JMO)

What do u think??

If we refer to the quote in the Post article as follows:

“when I first came in there were tyre tracks, girl’s footprints and signs of a wrestle. There was also a little gold chain on the floor”.

Could it be possible that the CSK took JR (or someone else) to the abandoned property in Government Road - effectively returning to location of KK and area in which he associated with both JR and KK attack?

 

[7SJ707]

IMO opinion it stands to reason that the best forensic match regarding unadulterated DNA from the CSK will come from the 1988 Huntingdale attack.
The perpetrator is inexperienced, still in his teens and likely progressing from neighbourhood "snowdropping " to acting out a rape fantasy for the first time.
The silk kimono is likely a very well handled " aid" in the lead up to this event, with some speculation the offender may have been wearing it himself, or , attempting to force the victim to wear it.
Either way reports say the kimono was dropped as the attacker fled, following a struggle. and the alarm being raised.
After this even I think the CSK became a lot more careful with evidence he left with his victims, and it may have been eventual advancements in DNA testing that he could not have foreseen that have brought him undone in his circa1996 crimes.
However the best match to these1996 partial DNA samples may only have a "familial " aspect... i.e. it could be a brother, father, cousin...etc. Whereas the Huntingdale evidence is the definitive" clincher" for the case to be made that BRE was definitely present in that crime, and circumstantially likely present at the other crimes he has been charged with post 1988.
All JMO opinion and theory.

 

[Look4Clues]

Here is a map of the area, very close to where Jane worked in Carrington Street Nedlands and (at the time) the abandoned Stock Bros Monumental Works in Government Road Nedlands relating to the Post article. Opposite Karrakatta Cemetery.

Perhaps they met during Jane's lunch hour as there is only one lunch bar in the area and arranged to meet at the Conti the night Jane went missing.

If the CSK was MM - and picked JR up at the Conti that night, offering her a lift home to her flat in Wembley, he would no doubt drive along Railway Rd alongside the KK cemetery to get to Wembley. It would not likely raise any alarm bells going that direction once JR was in the car, because it was on the way to her flat.
JMO

If we refer to the quote in the Post article as follows:

“when I first came in there were tyre tracks, girl’s footprints and signs of a wrestle. There was also a little gold chain on the floor”.

Could it be possible that the CSK took JR (or someone else) to the abandoned property in Government Road - effectively returning to location of KK and area in which he associated with both JR and KK attack?

 

[Frankie1972]

Can a subject matter expert please explain exactly what "familial DNA" is and how exactly it can be related back to a potential perp?

does it mean;
mum, dad, brother or sister, or
uncles, aunties, cousins, nieces or nephews, or even
second cousins and second aunties and uncles
or does it depend on what the source is, and a number of other variables? Age of sample, quantity etc.

Great question I love to know too

 

[janwa]

If we refer to the quote in the Post article as follows:

“when I first came in there were tyre tracks, girl’s footprints and signs of a wrestle. There was also a little gold chain on the floor”.

Could it be possible that the CSK took JR (or someone else) to the abandoned property in Government Road - effectively returning to location of KK and area in which he associated with both JR and KK attack?

Hold yourselves back a minute, a wrestle could be a "wrestle" maybe it was a prostitutes handy spot

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

My first thought if I saw a guy visiting a cemetery on a regular basis would be that he recently lost someone. Your guard would go down and you would be very sympathetic. Obviously a sweet guy in mourning so I might say "I'm going out with friends tonight why don't you meet us there", CSK says "ok but I have to work will be off at whatever time.".

She would probably work the same days and times each week,so not hard getting onto the same schedule to bump into her.

It is shown in the ctv footage that she looks at her watch, maybe she had agreed to meet up with him but her friends wanted to go home early so she stayed on not wanting to be a no show.

Good thinking Spooks


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Thanks JoWA [emoji4]

 

[MissUnderstood]

Can a subject matter expert please explain exactly what "familial DNA" is and how exactly it can be related back to a potential perp?

does it mean;
mum, dad, brother or sister, or
uncles, aunties, cousins, nieces or nephews, or even
second cousins and second aunties and uncles
or does it depend on what the source is, and a number of other variables? Age of sample, quantity etc.

I'm not an expert but this link explains it in a simple and understandable way.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/12/famil...est-current-approaches-justin-christian-ohio/




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[lampformypath]

This makes sense!

Would be also interesting to note where the building is (mentioned in the Post article) in relation to JR's work place. Perhaps not only did the CSK go back to the KK site regularly, but also 'bunked' off from work in the unused building.

It does appear that the CSK returns to the same scenes - if we consider Claremont/Bay View Terrace 3 times. We can also consider that JR is potentially connected via the KK link. Effectively her work place could be considered as KK.

If we take it one step further (and some people won't agree with this) - let's consider JC and Cottesloe abduction. Both are from the same place also.

But back to the KK/JR implication - I think you are onto something Spooks R Us!

EDIT - Claremont/Bayview Terrace could be considered more than 3 times if we consider some of the attacks.

Exactly Spinnaker and Spooks! I totally agree, I said ages ago that the cemetery was the scene of all 3 girls murders and I believe "ritual" is involved. That dark place used for some sinister "ceremony" and he felt compelled to carry out a "trilogy", 3 murders. The saint and the sinner this bloke. I'll bet there is an occult link the killings and a "dagger" was involved. JMO but brilliant working out the JR link so close to the cemetery, thanks and welcome Guccigal! And the "bumping into the girls" on occasions fits so well too. Creating familiarity and harmlessness. He who waits and waits, and plans and STALKS as I've kept saying. This is a long process but one he sees part of the thrill and the chase, a necessary evil!

 

[lampformypath]

Ok I am going to chuck in another Random re the ClaremontGhost Hint videos - because I think it is important to 'think outside of the box' and consider the random whilst sleuthing.

It is mentioned that Hint 9 of the ClaremontGhost Hint videos was a song named White Flag by Dido - link to song below:

[video=youtube;j-fWDrZSiZs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-fWDrZSiZs[/video]

There are a few observations:

1. If the CSK has a type, then Dido certainly fits this 'type'.
2. There is a 'stalker-ish' feel about the video - or perhaps 'viewed from a far' and paths crossing.
3. The bar scene is interesting also.

Very creepy vid Spinnaker. She certainly looks like "type" and does CSK see himself "as the tall dark stranger (stalker?)"

 

[Molly Dooker]

Can a subject matter expert please explain exactly what "familial DNA" is and how exactly it can be related back to a potential perp?

does it mean;
mum, dad, brother or sister, or
uncles, aunties, cousins, nieces or nephews, or even
second cousins and second aunties and uncles
or does it depend on what the source is, and a number of other variables? Age of sample, quantity etc.

I'm no subject matter expert but these helped to make the whole DNA thing clearer to me:

http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Familial_DNA/CDAA familial search article.pdf

http://aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/501-520/tandi506.html





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[lampformypath]

And I'll bet there's a diary or notebook our CSK has kept along with his trophies. This is a planner even though his early crimes were blitz/opportunistic there was still "watching/waiting" element to them. It may not be on his computer, too risky, I think he'd carry a book with him on his travels, noting down times/movements/schemes even drawings? Sounds old fashioned I know, but if CSK started so young (think way earlier than 19 with petty crimes (arson somewhere in there, school?), stealing undies off lines, voyeurism, then ramping up to rape attempt/s (sure he tried and failed a few times) this man doesn't appear (by his posts on Facebook) to have developed much EI (emotional intelligence) has stayed quite immature and fantasy is his realm, like some over-grown adolescent, so having a "journal" wouldn't seem so far fetched perhaps?

 

[Spinnaker]

Hi Spinnaker and GucciGal

Thanks!

Here's my two cents - I googled the childcare and its on 49 Carrington Rd Nedlands. Unusual thing about Carrington Rd is that it backs up on Government Rd and it looks like most of the businesses along there have access on both streets.

I reckon our CSK visited his KK rape site regularly and loitered around the area, possibly spying Jane (if she worked there) and then CSK continued to stalk Jane.

I think there are two 'backdoor' entrances to the cemetery along Government Rd about 181m and 208m from the Government Rd side of the childcare centre.

Maybe Jane parked on the cemetery side too.

Then I reckon CSK manipulated it that he 'casually' bumped into Jane and maybe they became interested in each other. Even maybe dating? .

.... fast forward a bit.....

So the MM video could be CSK picking up JANE from Conti in early days of their courting. However then something went HORRIBLY wrong and Jane unfortunately ended up in Wellard. (JMO)

What do u think??

Popped down to Government Rd in Nedlands and can confirm that there is a very well utilised entrance to the childcare centre (where JR worked) on the Government Road side - with plenty of parking this appears to be the main access point and very likely that staff utilised this entrance.

It is also quite close to the vacant building which is now Stock Bros Monumental Centre - this is marked on the map. In fact there could have been quite a few empty buildings back in the 90's. For those not familiar with the area the green space directly opposite is KK.

One thing which really stood out is that you can actually view the entrance to the Childcare centre from within KK.

Also Loch street train station is very close in the event of JR ever catching the train to work.

There is also a very large City of Nedlands depo at the corner of Broome and Carrington Street - we could perhaps consider that the Accused may have done some Telstra work in the area through the depo??

 

[JoWa]

I have been looking into the taking of DNA by police.

"Police can take samples from people charged with, or suspected of, committing a serious offence that carries a statutory penalty of 12 months or more, regardless of the actual sentence imposed."

https://www.police.wa.gov.au/Crime/Identifying-people/DNA-samples

And a list of offence penalties can be found here.

http://www.dpp.wa.gov.au/_files/Section32_Offence_Penalties_Table.pdf

I would like to point out that taking part in unlawful assembly will get you 12 months jail and a $12,000 fine, however, if you want to own child *advertiser censored* you will only receive fines, no jail terms at all. Our judicial system has it's priorities wrong.

To summarise, there are lots of minor crimes which carry a minimum 12 months sentence. So while the sentence is often not imposed it does seem to enable the taking of DNA.

Do we know what DNA tests are used in Australia? Some places only use the Y-Str, thus limiting the search to male relatives.


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[JoWa]

Anybody have the full list of ClaremontGhost HINTS????
pretty please.......

I never saw it but papertrail put a summary and some stills up here

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia-4/page60


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