Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[SherlockSleuth]

Seriously, I try to apply some common sense and objectivity to some unsubstantiated claims and I get PMs calling me a tool.

If if you really 100% think that the police have their man then why continue to comment on this site at all.

The purpose of this site is to try and solve horrible crimes against people, if you truly believe it solved move one.

Cant wait for the trolls.

thanks.

There's an ignore feature which allows you to ignore certain posters.

 

[mandy.maree]

Seriously, I try to apply some common sense and objectivity to some unsubstantiated claims and I get PMs calling me a tool.

If if you really 100% think that the police have their man then why continue to comment on this site at all.

The purpose of this site is to try and solve horrible crimes against people, if you truly believe it solved move one.

Cant wait for the trolls.

thanks.

Well I like your posts. Pretty sure anyone who has an opinion at all on here has had someone disagree with them at least once.

Who even knows how accurate all the testing is really.
Scientists only just discovered a new organ in the human body last year!!
Who knows what we will be told in another decade.
Im pretty confident the police would not have charged the wrong man at this point after all that's happened previously. .but people have a right to an opinion without being insulted!

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[Trueblue2017]

Seriously, I try to apply some common sense and objectivity to some unsubstantiated claims and I get PMs calling me a tool.

If if you really 100% think that the police have their man then why continue to comment on this site at all.

The purpose of this site is to try and solve horrible crimes against people, if you truly believe it solved move one.

Cant wait for the trolls.

thanks.

my apologies, I meant this case not this site.

and apologies to admin, as I know this is also not the right way to complain, however if ppl are 100% certain of BREs guilt you need to ask what their motivation is to keep posting.
to derail the thread for legit users...

 

[insanity]

Well I like your posts. Pretty sure anyone who has an opinion at all on here has had someone disagree with them at least once.

Who even knows how accurate all the testing is really.
Scientists only just discovered a new organ in the human body last year!!
Who knows what we will be told in another decade.
Im pretty confident the police would not have charged the wrong man at this point after all that's happened previously. .but people have a right to an opinion without being insulted!

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Now I'm curious, what is the organ????

 

[mandy.maree]

Now I'm curious, what is the organ????

Haha well it was more a part they previously thought was connected as a whole to another. Apparently its own seperate functioning organ though.


"Researchers have discovered what they’re calling a “new organ” within the human digestive system ― a reminder of just how much uncharted territory remains to be discovered within us."

https://www.google.com.au/amp/m.huf...b0eb58648b3f76/amp?client=ms-android-optus-au

And it was actually January this year not last

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[JoWa]

Now I'm curious, what is the organ????

It's the mesentery (I think, going from memory so don't trust spelling), they used to call it folded skin or something and reclassified it as an organ as it has a function like an organ. Part of the digestive system.


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[Spooks-R-Us]

Now I'm curious, what is the organ????

me too!!!!!

 

[insanity]

Haha well it was more a part they previously thought was connected as a whole to another. Apparently its own seperate functioning organ though.


"Researchers have discovered what they’re calling a “new organ” within the human digestive system ― a reminder of just how much uncharted territory remains to be discovered within us."

https://www.google.com.au/amp/m.huf...b0eb58648b3f76/amp?client=ms-android-optus-au


And it was actually January this year not last

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It's the mesentery (I think, going from memory so don't trust spelling), they used to call it folded skin or something and reclassified it as an organ as it has a function like an organ. Part of the digestive system.


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Thank you both!!

 

[JoWa]

my apologies, I meant this case not this site.

and apologies to admin, as I know this is also not the right way to complain, however if ppl are 100% certain of BREs guilt you need to ask what their motivation is to keep posting.
to derail the thread for legit users...

I just had to go back through your posts to find what what you were talking about. I don't have a problem with your posts, in fact I like any post that presents an alternative point of view to my own.

I can't speak for others here but with DNA links to several crime scenes I think it will be hard to dispute his guilt. So why am I still on the forum? I am interested in finding out where SS is and if he has other victims. Understanding his MO would be helpful to do this which is why I enjoy everyone's theories and other information they find.

When I read your post on a DNA (I am assuming this was the one you are referring too) I was under the impression that you believed they only had a partial DNA sample. As the police won't release DNA details that is of course a possibility. However, I did find one newspaper that states clearly the use of familial DNA in this case.

"And they believed they had managed to obtain a DNA profile of the killer from the body of Glennon. In an astonishing development, they matched this to the Karrakatta rape in 1995.

The person they were looking for, they decided, drove a late-model mid-1990s white Holden Commodore VS Series in the mid-1990s. They had his DNA but they did not know who he was.

Next came the technique sometimes called “familial DNA” where police look for people who are closely related to a suspected offender."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d/news-story/f34913420ecf0edf1a4b991994f8254d

IMO they may have used LCN DNA but they don't discuss how they managed to get the sample from CG, suggesting it was either through a specialist from the UK who was called in to consult or advances in technology. As LCN DNA is relatively new I believe this would present a defence argument (which I believe you were suggesting in your original post) if it weren't for the fact it matches another DNA sample (KK) perfectly.

Am I on the right track, sorry it is a little long winded.


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[Owlie]

Security Cameras are installed at KK but are installed by the Metropolitan Cemeteries Board based on their liaison with WAPOL and Police Licensed Security Agents.

The installation of cameras at KK is independent of the Nedlands Council as MCB are responsible for the management of the cemetery.

The cameras come directly from MCB's budget.

Provided signage is erected and Cemeteries comply with the Surveillance Devices Act or similar legislation, there is usually no issue with the installation of cameras.

Camera are installed to deter vandalism, but in most cases are used to deter theft from vehicles that are parked whilst people attend funerals.

The installation of cameras at KK are carried out by Police Licensed Security installers from reputable security companies.

It would not be in the public interest to discuss location and amount of any cameras on a public board.

Telstra is not involved in installing the cameras.

MCB is also involved in security programmes, such as Eyes on the Street.

Thanks Retpi you always have very knowledgable and insightful posts!


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[lampformypath]

Seriously, I try to apply some common sense and objectivity to some unsubstantiated claims and I get PMs calling me a tool.

If if you really 100% think that the police have their man then why continue to comment on this site at all.

The purpose of this site is to try and solve horrible crimes against people, if you truly believe it solved move one.

Cant wait for the trolls.

thanks.

Pay no attention to people who waste precious time being nasty to others. Rise above it, continue to post honest and informative thoughts and messages. Haters are going to hate, unfortunately. As my dear old Dad used to say, you have to have the rotten ones to help you appreciate the good ones when you meet 'em. eace:

 

[KG1]

It's the mesentery (I think, going from memory so don't trust spelling), they used to call it folded skin or something and reclassified it as an organ as it has a function like an organ. Part of the digestive system.


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Lordy, I hope I have one. Would hate to miss out. Lol

 

[janwa]

Seriously, I try to apply some common sense and objectivity to some unsubstantiated claims and I get PMs calling me a tool.

If if you really 100% think that the police have their man then why continue to comment on this site at all.

The purpose of this site is to try and solve horrible crimes against people, if you truly believe it solved move one.

Cant wait for the trolls.

thanks.

One question that hasn't been categorically answered is if the CSK acted alone

 

[RETPI]

JoWa you wrote:

"IMO they may have used LCN DNA but they don't discuss how they managed to get the sample from CG, suggesting it was either through a specialist from the UK who was called in to consult or advances in technology. As LCN DNA is relatively new I believe this would present a defence argument (which I believe you were suggesting in your original post) if it weren't for the fact it matches another DNA sample (KK) perfectly."

Hopefully, the following summary and information may assist you and other readers:

The prosecution has DNA from three separate crime scenes to which BRE has been linked by his DNA.

The KK rape incident (most likely the best sample), the Huntingdale attempted rape, dropped kimono and from CG.

CG’s came because of a review that identified “a critical item” that had been overlooked for testing.

In a similar way, WAPOL also had fibres from JR, which a review said should have been tested.

They were when they were eventually found and discovered to be fibres from a White VS Commodore.

WAPOL have forensically tested a White VS Commodore that BRE was allegedly driving and the results (whatever the outcome) will no doubt be discussed in Court.

In regards to the use of DNA experts, WAPOL have made several trips to the Britain to consult with forensic scientists there, including DNA expert, Dr Jonathan WHITAKER.

Dr WHITAKER has also visited Perth to work on the CSK case.

WHITAKER is a pioneer of LCN (Low Copy Number), said to be the most sensitive DNA testing yet developed and is also an authority on familial searching.

WHITAKER’s company is called Principal Forensic Services.

Some of the above information has already been mentioned in the media, but I have provided additional information.

WHITAKER provided evidence in R v Bradley John MURDOCH in respect to LCN evidence matching the suspect on cable ties used to restrain the girlfriend of the missing Peter FALCONIO (2005).

 

[lampformypath]

JoWa you wrote:

"IMO they may have used LCN DNA but they don't discuss how they managed to get the sample from CG, suggesting it was either through a specialist from the UK who was called in to consult or advances in technology. As LCN DNA is relatively new I believe this would present a defence argument (which I believe you were suggesting in your original post) if it weren't for the fact it matches another DNA sample (KK) perfectly."

Hopefully, the following summary and information may assist you and other readers:

The prosecution has DNA from three separate crime scenes to which BRE has been linked by his DNA.

The KK rape incident (most likely the best sample), the Huntingdale attempted rape, dropped kimono and from CG.

CG’s came because of a review that identified “a critical item” that had been overlooked for testing.

In a similar way, WAPOL also had fibres from JR, which a review said should have been tested.

They were when they were eventually found and discovered to be fibres from a White VS Commodore.

WAPOL have forensically tested a White VS Commodore that BRE was allegedly driving and the results (whatever the outcome) will no doubt be discussed in Court.

In regards to the use of DNA experts, WAPOL have made several trips to the Britain to consult with forensic scientists there, including DNA expert, Dr Jonathan WHITAKER.

Dr WHITAKER has also visited Perth to work on the CSK case.

WHITAKER is a pioneer of LCN (Low Copy Number), said to be the most sensitive DNA testing yet developed and is also an authority on familial searching.

WHITAKER’s company is called Principal Forensic Services.

Some of the above information has already been mentioned in the media, but I have provided additional information.

WHITAKER provided evidence in R v Bradley John MURDOCH in respect to LCN evidence matching the suspect on cable ties used to restrain the girlfriend of the missing Peter FALCONIO (2005).

Fantastic post, factual, unemotional and very informative. Bravo!

 

[Owlie]

Definitely a scary place to be at night....recently went for a drive too around there one night and saw many gates that appeared open leading into there.

I believe that this location was SIGNIFICANT to BRE on more than one occasion.....

There are so many desolated places close to Claremont that could have been the spot the alleged CSK took his victims to. As per his charges he allegedly used KK, he could also have used Government Rd, Shenton bushland, McGillvray Oval/UWA playing fields, UWA itself, Swan River foreshore down near Royal Flying Squadron, isolated beach and/or dunes between Floreat and Scarborough beaches (though could be fishermen there), Stephenson Ave bush past what was Perry Lakes, Perry Lakes itself was still there in 1996/7, Sewrage Treatment Plant and CSIRO buildings at back of Shenton Bushland on Brookvale Rd would be secluded at night I would think and one I've always thought was a strong possibility is Bold Park (just my opinion). I drove past there this evening and there's bush all the way from the corner of West Coast Hwy and Oceanic Drv all the way up to and including Bold Park and the Quarry Amphitheatre. And then of course there's Kings Park which I never would have considered until Lorryn Rainey was found buried there.

For those not from Perth we have a relatively small CBD (particularly way back in 1996) and a large urban sprawl north to south due to the Indian Ocean to the west and the Darling Escarpment which we call "The Hills" to the east; with large pockets of undeveloped "bush/scrub" dotted around the metro area (vegetation much like the recent photos posted of where Kiara was found). So there are almost limitless places where the alleged CSK could have carried out his evil fantasies.

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[GreenE]

There are so many desolated places close to Claremont that could have been the spot the alleged CSK took his victims to. As per his charges he allegedly used KK, he could also have used Government Rd, Shenton bushland, McGillvray Oval/UWA playing fields, UWA itself, Swan River foreshore down near Royal Flying Squadron, isolated beach and/or dunes between Floreat and Scarborough beaches (though could be fishermen there), Stephenson Ave bush past what was Perry Lakes, Perry Lakes itself was still there in 1996/7, Sewrage Treatment Plant and CSIRO buildings at back of Shenton Bushland on Brookvale Rd would be secluded at night I would think and one I've always thought was a strong possibility is Bold Park (just my opinion). I drove past there this evening and there's bush all the way from the corner of West Coast Hwy and Oceanic Drv all the way up to and including Bold Park and the Quarry Amphitheatre. And then of course there's Kings Park which I never would have considered until Lorryn Rainey was found buried there.

For those not from Perth we have a relatively small CBD (particularly way back in 1996) and a large urban sprawl north to south due to the Indian Ocean to the west and the Darling Escarpment which we call "The Hills" to the east; with large pockets of undeveloped "bush/scrub" dotted around the metro area (vegetation much like the recent photos posted of where Kiara was found). So there are almost limitless places where the alleged CSK could have carried out his evil fantasies.

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I don't totally disagree with you except I see none of those locations you mention as safer from the CSK's point of view to take the victims. I have often wondered "why Claremont" and I couldn't really put faith in the theories about him " having it in for the upper class" or "working at UWA" etc. I think the link with the KK rape victim puts Karrakatta squarely in focus for the murder location for all three missing/murdered victims and the reason he struck in nearby Claremont.

The first reason KK stands out as the location he took the victims is Familiarity. He'd been there before (allegedly) and had been successful in getting away with it. The location wasn't risky, but the 'leaving the victim alive there' part was.

Secondly, the chance of disturbance. I would say, beaches and river foreshores are poor choices because of fishermen (as you said) and some who like to go down there at night for odd reasons. People also often pull in to beach carparks to 'get high' before going to bed for the night or, if they'd "pulled" for the night, they'd park up for a bit of action. UWA, Kings Park would be out of the question IMO on this basis and the parks also had the risk of possible night functions e.g. hired them for parties etc.

Thirdly I would say the distance from the pickup location would have been very important. In a station wagon, as I said in a previous post, he would be very paranoid to be pulled over by the police with a living, moving victim. If the police pulled him over, it'd be hard to conceal a moving body in the back. KK is just a few backstreets away from the pickup location, unlike other locations you mentioned, such as the beaches, it's hard to see them being more convenient than KK.

Fourthly, Ease of access/exit. With numerous entrances, it could be conceived to be an ideal place because, unlike others there's plenty of entries he can take. If he was nervous because he'd had a car drive past on one occasion near, let's say Government rd entrance he could always pull around to the Smythe Rd entrance or Railway Rd.

Lastly I'd put the risk of the vehicle being spotted while parked in the mind of the CSK. McGilvray Park and other locations, while most likely very quiet at night, may have had the odd car driving nearby or the perceived risk in the CSK's mind. Assuming he's killing them there, the location would have to be one where the car can be parked out of any potential sight.

Overall I think the key factor here is, assuming the KK rape was done by the CSK, the familiarity and success he'd had there makes this the obvious choice for him over new, untested locations. I would suspect if he'd used another location it would have been because he got spooked on the way to KK and had to find an alternative.

 

[Molly Dooker]

Prior to the arrest of the alleged CSK on 22nd December 2016, when everyone on here was very despondent (including myself who was just reading) thinking "it's been nearly 21 years, the CSK will never be caught"; in early December last year on my way home from dinner with friends one Saturday night, I decided to take a slight detour and drive around the perimeter of KK (Smyth Rd/Monash Ave where the KK victim would have run to Hollywood Hospital and Government Rd) to see what it was like at night (because if I remember correctly there'd been talk about KK on the thread at that time). It wasn't very late only about 10.30pm but it was very dark and very desolate. A back entrance to the cemetery on Smythe Rd near the corner of Monash Ave appeared to be open but it was Government Rd that really spooked me - there was the huge council depot and several businesses all backing onto KK cemetery and a large side entrance to the cemetery on Government Rd (which I'd never realised existed) with the gate wide open and not a living soul in sight. I remember thinking to myself "those posters were right the CSK could have done anything here and no one would ever know". I specifically remember thinking that the council depot or the cemetery would be the perfect site because there are no houses around just empty businesses at night on the other side of the road. I was very surprised that all the entrances were open but as a woman on my own there's no way I would've driven inside the cemetery itself, especially at night, so I took off home. There was no sign of any security patrols at the cemetery or the businesses but I was only there for a few minutes.


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I drove into the cemetery tonight just on dark. I found the layout of the roads quite disorientating as they are not all at right angles or parallel to the surrounding roads. In any case the surrounding roads do not form a neat grid. I feel that anyone entering there at night in a car would have to know the place very well as it would be difficult to make a quick getaway otherwise. The roads would all look the same in the dark - there aren't many distinguishing landmarks. There are signposts, but only some of them indicate the direction of the exits. Many places within the cemetery are quite far from housing (there are quite a lot of businesses, light industry and the railway surrounding) so noises would probably not be heard, and if they were it would most likely be difficult to determine where they came from.

I don't know whether I have made a case for the cemetery being used for other CSK attacks (other than the so called kk rape) or for it NOT being used for anything following...


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[Spooks-R-Us]

2009 Interview with Debi Marshall:

“Why won’t the police release modus operandi?”
The modus operandi, he (Detective Senior-Sergeant Anthony Lee) says, needs to be kept secret so that in the event of someone coming forward and making admissions about a murder, police can validate that admission.

........“Ms Marshall speculates often about how many other victims of the Claremont serial killer there are, yet the world-renowned Schramm review panel of experts found no evidence of any links with 24 other cases of murdered or missing women in WA,” he says.

http://www.news.com.au/news/lost-in-the-devils-garden/news-story/009820814c5c97e33cd17008a39c89f2

 

[Owlie]

I don't totally disagree with you except I see none of those locations you mention as safer from the CSK's point of view to take the victims. I have often wondered "why Claremont" and I couldn't really put faith in the theories about him " having it in for the upper class" or "working at UWA" etc. I think the link with the KK rape victim puts Karrakatta squarely in focus for the murder location for all three missing/murdered victims and the reason he struck in nearby Claremont.

The first reason KK stands out as the location he took the victims is Familiarity. He'd been there before (allegedly) and had been successful in getting away with it. The location wasn't risky, but the 'leaving the victim alive there' part was.

Secondly, the chance of disturbance. I would say, beaches and river foreshores are poor choices because of fishermen (as you said) and some who like to go down there at night for odd reasons. People also often pull in to beach carparks to 'get high' before going to bed for the night or, if they'd "pulled" for the night, they'd park up for a bit of action. UWA, Kings Park would be out of the question IMO on this basis and the parks also had the risk of possible night functions e.g. hired them for parties etc.

Thirdly I would say the distance from the pickup location would have been very important. In a station wagon, as I said in a previous post, he would be very paranoid to be pulled over by the police with a living, moving victim. If the police pulled him over, it'd be hard to conceal a moving body in the back. KK is just a few backstreets away from the pickup location, unlike other locations you mentioned, such as the beaches, it's hard to see them being more convenient than KK.

Fourthly, Ease of access/exit. With numerous entrances, it could be conceived to be an ideal place because, unlike others there's plenty of entries he can take. If he was nervous because he'd had a car drive past on one occasion near, let's say Government rd entrance he could always pull around to the Smythe Rd entrance or Railway Rd.

Lastly I'd put the risk of the vehicle being spotted while parked in the mind of the CSK. McGilvray Park and other locations, while most likely very quiet at night, may have had the odd car driving nearby or the perceived risk in the CSK's mind. Assuming he's killing them there, the location would have to be one where the car can be parked out of any potential sight.

Overall I think the key factor here is, assuming the KK rape was done by the CSK, the familiarity and success he'd had there makes this the obvious choice for him over new, untested locations. I would suspect if he'd used another location it would have been because he got spooked on the way to KK and had to find an alternative.

Fair enough GreenE you've made some great points. I tend to agree that KK is the most likely site as per my previous post but I just happened to be driving home past Bold Park this evening and it reminded me that there is so much bush and so many isolated places at night so close to the CBD and within the Western Suburbs. And suburban areas in Perth are so dead late at night (sorry no pun or disrespect intended), even fairly early at night. The Saturday night in December 2017 that I drove around the perimeter of KK at only 10.30pm I didn't see another car. One New Years Eve a male friend and I walked home from a local train station at 2am and there were no lights on in houses or anyone around except for 1 or 2 taxis driving past and it was New Years! It was just so desolate on the streets so if he was hidden away in the bush or somewhere else isolated I honestly don't think the alleged CSK would be disturbed.
I guess we'll all have to wait until the trial of the alleged CSK to find out more information but I certainly appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions even if they're different to my own.


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