Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[7SJ707]

So, the new WAPOL crime fighting strategy is:

If you don’t have the suspected offender on the DNA data base.

You covertly obtain their DNA illegally. You then ask the Chem Centre to be complicit in the crime.

If you get a match, you get the TRG to break down the door.

You don’t tell them of course, about the illegal DNA, as then you’d have even more Officers who run the risk of later committing perjury.

You, then obtain a lawful sample and all’s good.

You tell the lab to destroy the illegal evidence, of course.

Well, interesting times ahead and on that basis, we should be seeing tons more cases coming to Court and interesting defences.

“Could you explain to the Court, how your DNA came to be on the victim”?

“Well, your Honour, a funny thing happened a few weeks ago, I was walking down the road and felt a few of my hairs being pulled and I noticed there was a Policeman walking behind me, they must have planted it”.

The sceptic in me, says they have enough trouble testing exhibits they have obtained legally.

Who could forget Dante ARTHURS untested shorts from a previous crime, that weren’t tested until after he committed a murder?

Even BRE’s brief will remember that, as he prosecuted ARTHURS.

When you do a return to basics, you ask yourself.

Why did the person become a suspect in the first place, sufficient to warrant obtaining this alleged illegal DNA?

If the suspicion was sufficient to carry out an alleged illegal act, Police would have been able to request a legal sample anyway.

All fair comment Columbo my friend ....but . with respect don't forget in the early very stages of the hunt they would not have been wanting to tip off the suspect they were on to him.....and requesting a legal sample would have straight off smashed that pumpkin right on the head........

 

[petedavo.au]

Yep. correct. Before people start making assertions about legality of evidence, they should do some web sleuthing.
WA is not America.

http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/INFOR...CERS/Pages/Policepowerstoarrestanddetain.aspx

http://forensic-review.com.au/what-you-thought-you-knew-about-the-law/

Or google

reasonable suspicion, identifying particulars, major crime, western australia

In other words taking covert DNA is not "illegal"
A search warrant is not required.
An arrest is not required.

Read the links or Google up all the others. Same answer. Laws have changed since Ridgeway v, The Queen

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[JoWa]

Really do have to have a wry smile at sleuths who have so much faith in the law, the system and citizens so called "rights" that they doubt police would have surreptitiously obtained BRE's dna from a bogus breath testing station or the like,,,, they would have done it every day ,and twice on Sundays once they got this bloke in their sights..we are not talking about a jaywalker here... it is the CSK , probably Australias most wanted and a bloke who had rubbed WAPOLs nose in it for the last thirty years.
"Noble cause' coppers would have been tripping over themselves to get a sample and a test done on the sly.
The level of electronic and physical surveillance would have been so intense the dog squad would have known what colour knickers he had on on any given day.....
If WAPOL did go with an "Operation Lorimer' style approach it is interesting that BREs stepdaughter reportedly used to stay over occasionally at the house . even after her mother had left..... lots of opportunitys for "deep and meaningful" heart to heart conversations there....some of the best blabbing gleaned from Lorimer was Bandali Debs talking to his concerned daughter,,,,,,
All JMO and theory...

When I read she still stayed there sometimes my mind didn't go to deep and meaningfuls, it went to woody Allen. But I view him as an alleged murdering rapist, not a loving step father.


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[lampformypath]

Thank you 7SJ707! What a revolting "man"! I've put a link down here for everyone to read about this Lorimer "creature" as they call him. A brilliantly written article about a case I hadn't even heard of, and I heard "echoes" of this case running through the article. Disgusting!

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/rotten-to-the-core-and-now-rotting-in-jail-20120302-1u82b.html

Sorry, talking to myself again! It was Debs not Lorimer that is the rotter, sorry, said the wrong name! Think it's bed time now for me.....

 

[JoWa]

So, the new WAPOL crime fighting strategy is:

If you don’t have the suspected offender on the DNA data base.

You covertly obtain their DNA illegally. You then ask the Chem Centre to be complicit in the crime.

If you get a match, you get the TRG to break down the door.

You don’t tell them of course, about the illegal DNA, as then you’d have even more Officers who run the risk of later committing perjury.

You, then obtain a lawful sample and all’s good.

You tell the lab to destroy the illegal evidence, of course.

Well, interesting times ahead and on that basis, we should be seeing tons more cases coming to Court and interesting defences.

“Could you explain to the Court, how your DNA came to be on the victim”?

“Well, your Honour, a funny thing happened a few weeks ago, I was walking down the road and felt a few of my hairs being pulled and I noticed there was a Policeman walking behind me, they must have planted it”.

The sceptic in me, says they have enough trouble testing exhibits they have obtained legally.

Who could forget Dante ARTHURS untested shorts from a previous crime, that weren’t tested until after he committed a murder?

Even BRE’s brief will remember that, as he prosecuted ARTHURS.

When you do a return to basics, you ask yourself.

Why did the person become a suspect in the first place, sufficient to warrant obtaining this alleged illegal DNA?

If the suspicion was sufficient to carry out an alleged illegal act, Police would have been able to request a legal sample anyway.

I tried to thank you twice but it wouldn't let me. Excellent post.


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[apoptosisfutz]

Sorry, talking to myself again! It was Debs not Lorimer that is the rotter, sorry, said the wrong name! Think it's bed time now for me.....

Lorimer was the name of the police operation to catch Debs and Roberts. So you were close 🙄

 

[RETPI]

I tried to thank you twice but it wouldn't let me. Excellent post.

Thank you JoWA.

If you or others wish to explore this issue further:

In Western Australia Police utilise the Criminal Investigation (Identifying People) Act 2002.

Sections of particular interest, are: Section 74. Use of illegal identifying information and Section 83. Evidence obtained illegally.

 

[Zedx]

IMO the possibility of the Police illegally obtaining DNA to find the CSK is a no brainer. Of course they would have.
IF they had familiar DNA, I don't think they would just sit around twiddling their thumbs saying "Oh well we're a little closer"., after 20 odd years!! They would have burnt a path to every relative to obtain DNA, but would have done it covertly so as not to give the CSK the chance to do a runner or possibly destroy evidence. Once they knew who it was they would have regrouped and worked out a way to arrest him without using that information.

 

[Sillybilly]

This post lands at random.

This thread is dedicated to discussion of the Claremont Serial Killer case. This morning I removed 34 off-topic posts and could probably keep going back to remove even more. The odd OT post is understandable, but too many off-topic posts derail the thread and are discouraging for members and guests who come here to read about the case. Additionally, WS staff don't have time to be going back through pages and pages of posts to remove general chit-chat. If you want to chit-chat, take it to private messaging.

Please stick to discussing the case at hand, and use the Alert feature when you see a thread going so totally off the rails. That way, we can catch it sooner than later.

If you have any questions or comments in that regard, you can PM a Mod or Admin, but do not post them in the thread.

:tyou:

 

[potr]

but the dentistry bit is fascinating and entirely possible.

Forensic dentistry is actually becoming more and more contentious. There have been at least two death row cases in the US convicted on the basis of bite marks that have been overturned based upon dna evidence. I think it is actually quite amazing that Ted Bundy was possibly convicted on the basis of spurious science.

 

[aequitas]

There was more evidence than just bite marks in the Bundy case. He did also confess in the end.

 

[Guccigal]

In other words taking covert DNA is not "illegal"
A search warrant is not required.
An arrest is not required.

Read the links or Google up all the others. Same answer. Laws have changed since Ridgeway v, The Queen

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

Well done! Some sense at last.

 

[winner]

Been a long time lurker first time poster, straight up I want to say thanks to you all for such a great topic. Having grown up in Perth the CSK was something close to us all, it was emotional hearing BE was arrested just before Christmas because it felt like something that has been with me (all of us) since childhood was about to end. That got me onto this site and I've been reading through the posts, bloody outstanding work!


This weekend I took a ride up to Pipidinny road to see what kind of area the body was left in.
I've attached some photos if anyones interested.. some context The photo with the motorbike handle/mirror just in view is the same location/hill where the image of the police cars/trailer are. The dirt track photos is the same dirt track you can see from the helicopter photo looking down on the police.
Something I noticed (which may or may not be correct) is the photo looking from the track into the bush has a Y shaped - black bush on the left of centre area. In the helicopter photo looking down on police again (with the white suits) you can see a similar Y shaped Black bush. Same one? I dont know, probably not.. but something i saw.


Now, In the police photo of the cars on the hill, the road clearly looks sealed and in good/new shape.
Things that became apparent to me on the journey
1. Its quite a trek from perth cbd north to this location even with the freeway/marmion avenue. I dont think this was a planned location. I believe he drove and drove until he thought he'd drive enough then took the next turn.


2. He wouldn't have been able to pull his car off the road and hide it during the dumping. Its to dry and loose for a non 4-wheel drive car. So he had to park it on the side of the road. A big risk considering you are dumping a body. Anyone seeing a car out there at that time of night parked on the side of the road would remember it, especially if a body was located there some time later.


3. The area has a number of walking trails around. He obviously didn't see the trails at night or else he'd of chosen a different location. Thus, he didn't scope the area prior and this wasn't a planned drop point. He didn't drag the body very far from the car, it seems as if it was rushed!


Truly sad what happened to this beautiful lady, I hope its him and I hope he fries in hell. I am looking forward to the court case, Perth will finally get answers.


I've heard a number of rumors from previous police, but having just read site rules I realize I am not allowed to post them. That sucks as I'd like to have known if anyone else heard similar.

Edit to add, personally I believe there were 2 people involved. But BE did the killing, perhaps the other person watched. I think they either built a fake Taxi Cab and the 2nd person identified himself as a passenger going to the same location and offered to split the fare, or he hid in the boot and revealed himself with a weapon during the trip. The locations the girls were taken from was too populated, too many camera's, too many cars.. blitz attacking a girl is difficult to hide in those area's.

A long time ago I was working on an island work site in QLD, a girl was walking down the road. We saw a man approach her and grab her around the neck from behind.. at first we thought they were friends and mucking around, until she started screaming for help..

Blitz attacks unless done perfectly always allow the victim to scream! Plus being late at night on alert of their surroundings they'd scare easy

Keep up the good work, Lets hope many other mysteries are finally solved thanks to the police catching this b@stard

Good post

 

[winner]

Obtaining evidence from a public bin is vastly different to police setting up a drug testing station for the sole purpose of obtaining someones DNA by deception.

So they could obtain DNA from going through items in someones bin?

 

[Spinnaker]

I came across this photo of JR & MM and thought I would share as it seems to be one of the clearer ones which are in circulation - I have never noticed the guy leaning on the lamp pole before. Raising this as he just looks a little bit out of place.

EDIT: Could he perhaps be waiting for MM as in later video stills, he too has gone.

 

[lampformypath]

I came across this photo of JR & MM and thought I would share as it seems to be one of the clearer ones which are in circulation - I have never noticed the guy leaning on the lamp pole before. Raising this as he just looks a little bit out of place.

Agreed, I've never noticed him before, but haven't all the people in the video at and around the pub been eliminated by WAPOL, that was some 700 people if I remember rightly? The only one to not be interviewed/have come forward/been eliminated was our MM, at least that's what I have read and reread on various threads. Much clearer pic though, it doesn't look like footage of the moon landing like all the others!

 

[Spinnaker]

Agreed, I've never noticed him before, but haven't all the people in the video at and around the pub been eliminated by WAPOL, that was some 700 people if I remember rightly? The only one to not be interviewed/have come forward/been eliminated was our MM, at least that's what I have read and reread on various threads. Much clearer pic though, it doesn't look like footage of the moon landing like all the others!

Yes I have heard also that approx 700 people were interviewed and eliminated - just mentioning as there is always the possibility that some link was missed at the time of interviewing. You are right probably no connection though.

Regards to the MM footage however there does appear to be some footage which is missing. I have in the past seen quite a lot of footage from this night which I can no longer find online (more footage from inside Conti).

 

[silver tongue]

some posters were dead set certain the CSK left his victims in a straight line with the conti being the central point
i wondered why. Maybe it was to locate the victims on his return

 

[lampformypath]

Yes I have heard also that approx 700 people were interviewed and eliminated - just mentioning as there is always the possibility that some link was missed at the time of interviewing. You are right probably no connection though.

Regards to the MM footage however there does appear to be some footage which is missing. I have in the past seen quite a lot of footage from this night which I can no longer find online (more footage from inside Conti).

Yes, I've read a lot on WS about missing footage, longer version of this, people who have actually been shown extra footage by WAPOL etc. etc. This has really been examined and examined, but like you say, that's good sleuth work to do this, not to just think, oh well, forget that, move on. It's in the looking with fresh eyes sometimes that things are discovered, years later, as we all now know. The "devil is in the detail" as they say, and the CSK certainly fits that description!

 

[winner]

I came across this photo of JR & MM and thought I would share as it seems to be one of the clearer ones which are in circulation - I have never noticed the guy leaning on the lamp pole before. Raising this as he just looks a little bit out of place.

EDIT: Could he perhaps be waiting for MM as in later video stills, he too has gone.

To think that she is smiling at possibly CSK disgusts me.If it is BRE and found guilty absolutely disgusting