Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

[doradodds]

Hi Dora.

I'm sorry you've had such personal experiences with suicide. And I honestly feel for you.

But as I said before, our personal experiences are not relevant to investigating this case objectively. Looking coolly at all angles requires a steady head, not one coloured by strong emotion IMO.

Also - I hear what you're saying about some families struggling to accept their loved one has suicided - but in this case it makes total sense that the parents would question it. The method of 'suicide' here is just SO bizarre and so unlike a female method IMO that I'd be screaming to anyone who would listen if it were my daughter who's life was lost in this way.

And in terms of the article you linked before, they are NOT referring to 'self-impalement' - which is what this suicide methodology is - when they were referring to knife use. They are referring to the slitting of throat or wrists - the common types of methods.


I actually feel this debate is a waste of time, as it brings nobody closer to finding justice for Jenny.

And that is what most of us are here for.

<modsnip>

Nowhere in that article on the Lethality of suicide methods does it say what you profess it means when they list "sharp object (- slitting of throat or wrists ) I would think "sharp object" would mean just that. However it seems to me that despite explaining it several times you have not yet been able to grasp the point of my putting up those stats. The point is that many here have stated they do not believe she would have chosen that method of suicide because of its uncertainty in being successful especially given that she had access to pill she could have used which seemed to have been deemed by some here as being a more successful method. The commonality of any method is irrelevant to the argument here - what I am talking about is the effectiveness of a method because it has been stated here by others that pills would have been a more effective method. This is simply not true as 85% of all failed suicide attempts lie with the use of pills/poison. Besides you have not thought out your argument very well and make a contradictory statement when you assert that the report is talking about slitting of throat or wrists when it refers to "sharp objects" by adding that such are the common types of methods which they are not according to the report which clearly shows sharp objects being used in only 1.84% of all successful suicides

 

[BatWoman]

But if the coroner was unable to rule it murder or suicide, how does discussing different methods of suicide help? If it was definitely suicide the coroner would have made that ruling. We can't rule out suicide and nobody can get into Jenny's head to work out what method she would have chosen and why. The discussion about the method here is the suspiciousness of it. It doesn't make sense. Why have her gardening clothes and hat on? why put a sheet over her head and tie it in place? why blindfold herself? Why move a piece of plywood that was heavier than she could lift? Why wrap the handle of the knife with plastic and string in the manner they do for shivs in prison? Why choose a painful death to end her back pain? How would she know to wrap the knife handle that way? If she had taken an overdose these questions would never be asked. Maybe she did it that way wanting PC to be accused of murder? This is why the forensics were SO important to the case. That knife could have told us so much.

On the other hand, while suicide can't be ruled out, murder can't either. So the possibilites of murder are going to be sleuthed. Unless someone's standing over a dead body with a smoking gun, investigation starts at the inner circle and works out. At the moment we haven't managed to work past PC, but if we found out she was having an affair or there was someone wanting her dead, they'd have questions asked about them too.

Doradodds, you've indicated that you believe she committed suicide and that trying to determine anything past that is pointless. I respectfully disagree. I don't know either way and will continue to try to piece the puzzle together in whatever way it makes sense and can be backed up by evidence. At the moment I believe the evidence seems to point away from suicide.

 

[doradodds]

I think we really do need a timeline...

from http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/217931/cif-cook-jl-20131206.pdf



If he planned it before hand that would give him time to go home and do the deed before going to the computer store to get his alibi.

If PC had a clear run in his car it would take him 54 minutes to drive 40.3k from work to home, then home to the computer sho and then from the computer shop to work without stopping. If you add in getting to and from the car, finding a park and parking and then being served at the shop that would be another 30 minutes - so he has used up an hour and a half and has not even got to the main business yet.

Also how would he possible have arrived and left the house without being noticed - especially the woman across the road was up and on alert worried about the dog who was already barking. Sorry but I just do not see where he had opportunity.

 

[MsAnais]

<modsnip>

Nowhere in that article on the Lethality of suicide methods does it say what you profess it means when they list "sharp object (- slitting of throat or wrists ) I would think "sharp object" would mean just that. However it seems to me that despite explaining it several times you have not yet been able to grasp the point of my putting up those stats. The point is that many here have stated they do not believe she would have chosen that method of suicide because of its uncertainty in being successful especially given that she had access to pill she could have used which seemed to have been deemed by some here as being a more successful method. The commonality of any method is irrelevant to the argument here - what I am talking about is the effectiveness of a method because it has been stated here by others that pills would have been a more effective method. This is simply not true as 85% of all failed suicide attempts lie with the use of pills/poison. Besides you have not thought out your argument very well and make a contradictory statement when you assert that the report is talking about slitting of throat or wrists when it refers to "sharp objects" by adding that such are the common types of methods which they are not according to the report which clearly shows sharp objects being used in only 1.84% of all successful suicides

All I am going to say in response to that is that I am indeed focused on justice for Jenny. Why? Because she is the only one involved in the case who lost her life.

She is dead.

She can't defend herself, describe what happened, or have any voice.

Everyone else involved has the power and freedom to state their case.

So I will re-phrase what I said as it is MOO -

I am here for justice for Jenny.

I am here - in all the WS cases - to give voice and justice to those who have been silenced.

And I personally believe that she was silenced by someone else - not her own hand.

 

[doradodds]

But if the coroner was unable to rule it murder or suicide, how does discussing different methods of suicide help? If it was definitely suicide the coroner would have made that ruling. We can't rule out suicide and nobody can get into Jenny's head to work out what method she would have chosen and why. The discussion about the method here is the suspiciousness of it. It doesn't make sense. Why have her gardening clothes and hat on? why put a sheet over her head and tie it in place? why blindfold herself? Why move a piece of plywood that was heavier than she could lift? Why wrap the handle of the knife with plastic and string in the manner they do for shivs in prison? Why choose a painful death to end her back pain? How would she know to wrap the knife handle that way? If she had taken an overdose these questions would never be asked. Maybe she did it that way wanting PC to be accused of murder? This is why the forensics were SO important to the case. That knife could have told us so much.

On the other hand, while suicide can't be ruled out, murder can't either. So the possibilites of murder are going to be sleuthed. Unless someone's standing over a dead body with a smoking gun, investigation starts at the inner circle and works out. At the moment we haven't managed to work past PC, but if we found out she was having an affair or there was someone wanting her dead, they'd have questions asked about them too.

Doradodds, you've indicated that you believe she committed suicide and that trying to determine anything past that is pointless. I respectfully disagree. I don't know either way and will continue to try to piece the puzzle together in whatever way it makes sense and can be backed up by evidence. At the moment I believe the evidence seems to point away from suicide.

I have never said that trying to prove anything past suicide is pointless. On the contrary I have said that I am open to any evidence. <modsnip>

The coroner gave an open verdict. The coroner did not give recommendations that PC should be charged or even that he should be investigated. In fact she did not recommend that any further investigation into Jenny's death should be conducted.

 

[doradodds]

All I am going to say in response to that is that I am indeed focused on justice for Jenny. Why? Because she is the only one involved in the case who lost her life.

She is dead.

She can't defend herself, describe what happened, or have any voice.

Everyone else involved has the power and freedom to state their case.

So I will re-phrase what I said as it is MOO -

I am here for justice for Jenny.

I am here - in all the WS cases - to give voice and justice to those who have been silenced.

And I personally believe that she was silenced by someone else - not her own hand.

Very good. Thank you for being honest and stating your position. I never did buy the non-emotive cool-headed logical bit.

 

[Ausgirl]

Fabrication? Nope. Fair conclusion. Unless Mr. Cook was in the habit of offering a 'better life' to women willy-nilly. And unless there was a better reason for them both to lie to police about the frequency and nature of contact prior to Jenny's death. Of course, the other option here is that she was telling the truth when she said he was stalking her - Cook was calling this woman "more than three times a day" (inquest report, p.27). She also said he got "aggressive and hostile" with her when she refused to leave her husband for him (inquest report, p13). Which might suggest he was a great deal more invested in the relationship than she was, rather than just throwing him under a bus there. Supporting this is she was then caught 'canoodling' with another officer in a van a few months later.

 

[SouthAussie]

Looking coolly at all angles requires a steady head, not one coloured by strong emotion IMO.

RSBM

:yes: Totally agree, Isis. Which is why police who are closely involved with victims do not generally investigate their demise, and why doctors do not generally treat serious illness in their own family members.

 

[SouthAussie]

So, among my growing list of questions that require investigation are:

- Was there any type of previous relationship/friends in common between DS Osborn and Mr Cook?

- Who is responsible for signing prison staff in and out of the prison .. is it the staff member or a reception person?

- Was it general knowledge that the prison cameras were not operational on the day of Jenny&#8217;s death? Presumably the prison staff would have known and been placed on high alert.

- With the knife having the appearance of a prison shank, and the method of the knife being placed in a wall for Jenny&#8217;s person to have been driven into it, who at the prison or with prison experience would have had a motive for Jenny&#8217;s murder?

- How long is evidence generally retained by the Qld Police?

- Has the Commissioner of Police actually reviewed the inquest findings himself, or has someone in his command done so on his behalf, or has no-one looked at the report at all?

- Has DS(S) Osborn been disciplined/re-trained due to her incompetence in the investigation?

.

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't know about Ausgirl but I believe that suspicious deaths should be investigated and the spouse should be investigated to rule them out as being involved. Once the full investigation of the suspicious death has been done they can then confidently submit to the coroner information that would assist in determining the cause of death, including simple things like DNA/fingerprints on the knife.

The police dropped the ball here which is why there is speculation. If they did their job properly and answered these questions to the satisfaction of the coroner we would not be here discussing it. There is circumstantial evidence that gives the spouse motive and opportunity, and no other people of interest were identified at the inquest, so until he's ruled out or the coroner rules out suicide I'm afraid he will be looked at as a suspect.

Just adding to this ...

Because the Coroner has declared an open finding in this case, and is not convinced that this was a suicide, I think Jenny deserves a full investigation. Her family do not need the cloud of 'possible' suicide hanging over their heads forever .. and neither does Jenny. It either was a suicide, or it wasn't.

And we, the public, need to have full confidence in our police services .. that they will investigate these cases thoroughly.

 

[Ausgirl]

Route from Townsville Correctional Center to the Cook Residence

15.7 km. Estimated driving time: 20 mins

If his workmate was truthful and did not see him from 11-1.30pm, that opens a bit of a window of time there. As the CCTV on the gates was out, I'm curious as to what other records might exist to show when Cook entered and left the premises that day. And if they exist, why these weren't shown to police or at the inquest, when they'd have been very useful.

 

[Ausgirl]

What you have to remember is that its not "impossible" that it was indeed a suicide, (though I don't feel it was) and work from that angle exhausting all possibilities.

Sometimes, people commit suicide in very odd ways .... in one case, I remember hearing about Roy Hazelwood (retired FBI profiler), explained, investigating a very bizarre suicide, where a man repeatedly stabbed himself in the temple with a ball point pen

I don't feel it was either, Rich. And have considered this as a suicide, bizarre as it is. People really do some strange things to themselves, that's very true.

But there's too many things not adding up here. And the hand being moved postmortem is chief among them. That tells me another person was present, when by all accounts given, there ought not have been. There's a pile of other stuff, but that's some pretty good evidence that she was not alone all day.

 

[doradodds]

Route from Townsville Correctional Center to the Cook Residence

15.7 km. Estimated driving time: 20 mins

If his workmate was truthful and did not see him from 11-1.30pm, that opens a bit of a window of time there. As the CCTV on the gates was out, I'm curious as to what other records might exist to show when Cook entered and left the premises that day. And if they exist, why these weren't shown to police or at the inquest, when they'd have been very useful.

If PC had a clear run in his car it would take him 54 minutes to drive 40.3k from work to home, then home to the computer shop and then from the computer shop to work without stopping. If you add in getting to and from the car, finding a park and parking and then being served at the shop that would be another 30 minutes - so he has used up an hour and a half and has not even got to the main business yet.

Also how would he possible have arrived and left the house without being noticed - especially the woman across the road was up and on alert worried about the dog who was already barking. Sorry but I just do not see where he had opportunity.

 

[Ausgirl]

dora: How do you know she was "up and on alert"? Fabrication? No, reasonable assumption, I think.

Except - the woman said she was unwell and trying to sleep. So possibly not so much "on alert".

There's a potential hour there, unaccounted for. Why? There ought to be records, considering it's a *prison* of who came and went, and when, for that day, other than the CCTV. Those weren't produced, though it would have aided Cook's alibi greatly. So we simply can't know if he had that extra hour. Which is a pity.

 

[doradodds]

dora: How do you know she was "up and on alert"? Fabrication? No, reasonable assumption, I think.

Except - the woman said she was unwell and trying to sleep. So possibly not so much "on alert".

There's a potential hour there, unaccounted for. Why? There ought to be records, considering it's a *prison* of who came and went, and when, for that day, other than the CCTV. Those weren't produced, though it would have aided Cook's alibi greatly. So we simply can't know if he had that extra hour. Which is a pity.

Quote: The first sign of trouble on January 19 at the Cooks' home was a barking dog. Trying to sleep in the house across the road was Janice Cavanagh, recuperating from shoulder surgery, and the noise was keeping her awake.
The barking got worse around lunchtime when the animal began making what Cavanagh would call a "crying" sound that seemed to go on for hours. She got up and thought: "Should I go over and see if it's caught somewhere?" But because she didn't know the Cooks, who had only moved into the new home two months before, she decided to stay put. The barking stopped around 4.30pm.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/knife-edge-20140714-3bvp7.html#ixzz38ir49ned

Neither irony or sarcasm is argument.
Samuel Butler

 

[Ausgirl]

I just feel I need to add here - it wasn't *me* who raised the question of an affair, lol. It was the police. And the subsequent inquest.

Why would they have have done this? Well... the unidentified female can be seen to have no problem with extramarital affairs. According to Cook (though he changed his story) he had one with her, and then she was caught 'canoodling' with a different prison officer in a van. This is what has been reported.

Then there's the reported fact that -both- Cook and this woman lied about their prior contact. Why lie, is the obvious question there, unless there's something to hide? Either could have simply said they were good friends, and hence there was a lot of calls. But they didn't. They lied.

So with those two pieces of information that are available to us, and given that the question of an affair was raised by police and the inquiry. I don't think I'm "fabricating" anything. I'm interpreting what's right there, in the reports.

 

[Ausgirl]

Quote: The first sign of trouble on January 19 at the Cooks' home was a barking dog. Trying to sleep in the house across the road was Janice Cavanagh, recuperating from shoulder surgery, and the noise was keeping her awake.
The barking got worse around lunchtime when the animal began making what Cavanagh would call a "crying" sound that seemed to go on for hours. She got up and thought: "Should I go over and see if it's caught somewhere?" But because she didn't know the Cooks, who had only moved into the new home two months before, she decided to stay put. The barking stopped around 4.30pm.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/knife-edge-20140714-3bvp7.html#ixzz38ir49ned

This doesn't at all support the assumption she was "on alert" for the entire time. Ie, peering out the blinds with her eye on the house all day? She was recovering from surgery..

I must say also, that the question of how Cook could have entered the property without being noticed is a very good one.

I think it's possible -somebody- could have -- I live in a high-density area, and my neighbour's property is literally ten feet from where I am sitting right now, with a clear view out the window of the pathway. However, I don't keep tabs on who comes and goes - and several times I have been surprised by her son making a sudden noise on the other side of the fence - I did not see him arrive. Because I don't watch my neighbours -that- closely. Who does?

 

[doradodds]

I just feel I need to add here - it wasn't *me* who raised the question of an affair, lol. It was the police. And the subsequent inquest.

Why would they have have done this? Well... the unidentified female can be seen to have no problem with extramarital affairs. According to Cook (though he changed his story) he had one with her, and then she was caught 'canoodling' with a different prison officer in a van. This is what has been reported.

Then there's the reported fact that -both- Cook and this woman lied about their prior contact. Why lie, is the obvious question there, unless there's something to hide? Either could have simply said they were good friends, and hence there was a lot of calls. But they didn't. They lied.

So with those two pieces of information that are available to us, and given that the question of an affair was raised by police and the inquiry. I don't think I'm "fabricating" anything. I'm interpreting what's right there, in the reports.

Actually it was Jenny's parents that raised that as an issue. BUT you certainly did say "her husband fully intended beginning a life with another woman and admitted having an affair" which is not a truthful thing to say. I will add that when you posted it you did so as a claim there was an affair prior to Jenny dying and it was a reason why he may have wanted her dead.

 

[catswhiskers]

dora: How do you know she was "up and on alert"? Fabrication? No, reasonable assumption, I think.

Except - the woman said she was unwell and trying to sleep. So possibly not so much "on alert".

There's a potential hour there, unaccounted for. Why? There ought to be records, considering it's a *prison* of who came and went, and when, for that day, other than the CCTV. Those weren't produced, though it would have aided Cook's alibi greatly. So we simply can't know if he had that extra hour. Which is a pity.

Yes the woman was in bed recovering from surgery wasn't she? I have thought that she mustn't have visually checked for where the barking from the distressed dog was coming from at all - if she had she might have been able to verify whether or not the dog was on the balcony or elsewhere on the property.

 

[Ausgirl]

Mr Cook stated that prior to Ms Cook&#8217;s death he was only work friends with the NIFP. He stated that he had called her a couple of times on her mobile but only in relation to work issues such as leave and he would &#8216;be surprised if it was more than five times&#8217; that he called her.

He said in the week after the death he did contact the NIFP but only in relation to taking leave from work.
Mr Cook initially said that he talked to the NIFP and Ms Rogers for about a month after Ms Cook&#8217;s death but then, under questioning from Counsel Assisting, admitted that there was a period about 2 to 3 months after the death when he had an intimate relationship with the NIFP. He said he had sex with her but later stated he had not had sexual intercourse with her at any time but did have an intimate relationship.
When confronted with the telephone records proving that Mr Cook in fact called or texted the NIFP 52 times between November 2008 and January 2009, Mr Cookstated that he didn&#8217;t think it was that often but maintained that she was only a work friend.
The phone records showed that Mr Cook had texted or called the NIFP 92 times in the month after Ms Cook&#8217;s death &#8211; more than three times per day. He accepted this and stated that he was also emailing her and would have sent her emails at least as many times as he called and texted
(Inquest report, p27-28)

The NIFP told police that she had very little contact with Mr Cook prior to Ms Cook&#8217;s death (this is inconsistent with his phone records which indicate he was sending her text messages and phoning her very frequently both prior to and subsequent to Ms Cook&#8217;s death)
(inquest report, p,10)

^ The police questioned both about it, and so did the coroner.

My speculation goes to the reasons why they'd lie to police. A woman is dead, her husband and the woman he says he slept with after her death are both lying to police. Cook then wants to move in with her "give her a better life" which he could do, with his wife dead. He stated to police that he was happy to think she'd left him when he got home - though her handbag was sitting right there in full view on the kitchen bench, papers spread out, and was the *first* thing noted by DS Osborn as she entered the house.

My "claim" is speculation. Based on these reported facts.