GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #4

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Originally Posted by chekoutchik
Do you have any evidence of hard-labour causing prisoners to become a danger to society when released? Just wondering...

KG1 said:
Firstly, I think it stands to reason that if a person is brutalized (and lets face it, some prison warders in the past were as bad or worse than the prisoners - ie Goulburn Jail for one), then that person is going to come out a brutalized person and unable to cope in any way in a normal society - likely to hit out at the first person who crosses them, or is perceived to cross them. Incarceration on its own can take a very long time of adjustment, especially if a long sentence. Posting a link, which delves into past history of jail treatment - UK origins, which is what Australia followed as a colony.

http://vcp.e2bn.org/gaols/page11685-an-overview-of-rehabilitation-and-reform.html
Click to expand...

"Brutalised" was never mentioned and I'm not up for that at all. Hard-labour was and my question was if you had any evidence whether or not hard-labour caused released prisoners to become dangerous when released from prison???

My hubby hard-labours by choice as he is a landscaper. The only time he seems to get down is when work is slow and then he kills too much time on FB and in front of the TV as he's depressed.

The guys/girls we hire to help don't seem to have an issue working bloody hard carrying up to 3 bags of concrete on their shoulders at a hit, etc. They all seem cheerful and upbeat.

I use to type judgments for a magistrate in Moree. One of his concerns, and he had me type this for him, was that the young criminals found the whole experience fun, would re-offend to go to jail on purpose and would recommend the experience to their friends.

<modsnip>
So, why should our taxes go to funding expensive sports (i.e. snooker, swimming), tv's, movies, personal fitness trainers, bespoke on-site courses, tertiary education, etc while many elderly and young are deprived of even the basic living standards?

I question your hypothesis. Please give me an example of how it helps to pamper criminals anyone?
 
Given that "chemical castration" has been so contentious over the years - the Civil Rights mob and the bleeding hearts think this infringes on the rights of the criminals, while I personally think they don't actually HAVE any of those rights - the idea of actual physical castration has no chance of ever being introduced here in Australia. And that is unfortunate, as I think that it would go a long way to solving the recidivism problem for sex offenders, including rapists and paedophiles.

And so-called "chemical castration", which involves taking medication, only works as long as the medication is being taken. And you can just imagine all the sex offenders continuing to take their meds after release, can't you?

"Yes, Mr Parole officer/probation officer/Your Honour - of COURSE I'm taking my tablets regularly - (smirk)"
 
GutFeeling! said:
Yes that's true, but with the internet and the social media how can they police it? It's one thing to tell the media not to publish things, but how do you police individuals?

Victorians posting on here are just looking at NSW and Queensland media outlets for the news.

It's not just Victoria that censor, it is just because this case is Victorian that they have. Had it happened in Sydney then New South Wales would be censored now.

I just can't see how they can beat a world wide media source like Facebook and Twitter - all my opinion.

As i said in an earlier post you want a cross section of the community on your jury, nowadays people use the internet a lot so naturally a cross section is going to include internet users and social media site users.

I just hope they don't turn to the American system where jurors are questioned about what happens in their personal lives.

The Casey Anthony case always comes to mind with that. I wonder if things would have been different (and I firmly believe they would have) if the Australian system was used.

Here are your 40 people, from these 40 you will select 20. The 40 people are given a number between 1 and 40. Those numbers are put into a box, shuffled around and plucked out. All the defense knows is that number 14, Gut Feeling is a journalist or home duties or nurse or secretary - they get to see me, I can be put aside based on the way I look, my name or my occupation - that's it. It is certainly a random cross section of the community - so how can they possibly stop social networking?
In the CA case, if this were done, there would have certainly been people that had followed the case, we saw them all excused. But she was supposed to be judged by her peers and we know she was Facebook happy lol So the argument could be "With all the questioning are you providing a fair cross-section of her peers?"

that is a simplified version of how it goes but it really isn't that different.
Click to expand...

I watched the Casey Anthony trial all the way through, and I also watched quite a bit of the jury selection, which was protracted, as the prosecution was calling for the death penalty as the sentence, if convicted.
I was astounded and amazed at the procedure and in this case the jury pool was selected from a neighbouring county to try and obtain a jury that was not biased or as exposed as the population in Orange county when the crime occurred. It was a very long process and very probing in relation to the individuals. My personal opinion, regardless of how one feels or believes, is that this jury did its job well - it relied on the evidence presented and passed verdict accordingly. Much of the scientific evidence in that case was new and novel and untested by the peers of those providing the evidence. Special death penalty lawyers were brought in to assess and question prospective jurors and the selection went on for weeks. Very different from Australia and I would not like that system to be adopted here. I don't know whether the same system applies to non death penalty cases in the US. Perhaps someone can enlighten us.
 
The Unfortunate Ms M said:
Yeah... but most people's idea of 'action' seems to be about prison/sentencing/parole.

Honestly I think if we want to prevent rape we have to look at the way we raise boys, the way women are portrayed in film and advertising, the way men talk to each other about women when women aren't around...

How many of the people who condemn what happened to Jill have laughed at a friend's rape joke? Think about the recent issue with comedian Tosh.0, where he made a joke about how a female audience member should be gang-raped - and when she made a fuss, a lot of people accused her of having no sense of humour. Well chances are one or more people in the audience was a rapist, and that's what he's hearing...

If you hear a male friend talk about how <modsnip> a woman is in a casual disrespectful way, do you say anything or do you keep quiet?
Click to expand...

Does this apply both ways? Or is just all men who need to look at themselves because of the actions of a tiny percentage of men?
 
Not being familiar with the Casey Anthony case at all, I just looked it up. Looks like she isn't out of the woods yet:

http://www.examiner.com/article/wit...-prepare-for-civil-case-against-casey-anthony

I still don't know the details of the case, or what happened in the trial. But I gather that although she was found not guilty, the social media still have her guilty and have been baying for blood. Now THAT is a situation where social media is a real problem!

While the above is not directly relevant to the Jill Meagher case, the principle of "beyond reasonable doubt" is one that is difficult to define - eg what is "reasonable"?

Let's just hope that the alleged perp in the Meagher case pleads guilty. And if he does, then let us hope that the judge is not one of those civil rights types who values the rights of the perpetrator as highly or more so than those of the victim....
 
LeoBear said:
Devil's advocate - but sexual sadists/predators have, according to what I've googled, the kind of psychopathy that tends not to respond well to treatment. So, if rehab is not possible, then the only purpose of incarceration can be to keep them from re-offending and/or punishment.
Click to expand...

I have always believed in rehabilitation but when it comes to sexual predator crimes from everything I have read the recidivism rate is high. So majority do reoffend. In which case letting them out is not the right option.
 
DrWatson said:
I still don't know the details of the case, or what happened in the trial. But I gather that although she was found not guilty, the social media still have her guilty and have been baying for blood. Now THAT is a situation where social media is a real problem!
Click to expand...

Snipped: You didn't need social media. The case was shown live on TV from Jury selection to verdict. there is always a case being shown on a cable channel called courtv

Florida also has the "Sunshine Law" which means nearly everything is available to anhyone that wants it (naturally mainly media) - certainly not a lot hidden. It is really intriguing to watch.
 
Paulie11 said:
food for thought:

It is possible that blue hoodie took off after Jill was dismissing him at Duchess Boutique, ran to his car- parked there on Sydney road- so that Jill could see him get into his car and then drive off up Sydney road (north). Jill thought she was safe and the danger was gone. Then, maybe he turned into a side street left, came back down to Hope Street from the back route, and surprised her, jumped out and assaulted her.

Or he got into his car, drove south toward the city, then right onto Victoria street, and right again onto Percy St.- then found her somewhere on her way home in the dark side-streets/alleys and hit her and kidnapped her and promptly drove off.

Going back down south along Sydney road would have totally disarmed her because her mentality was to go north, and little did she think that he could do a right (victoria) and right (percy) and be right back to near where she was. She wouldn’t have suspected this as she’d be thinking he was gone- it’s just psychological short-sightedness that we all get from moment to moment. She would have been consumed with dealing with the immediate and present danger of his being right there; but as soon as he walked off, she switched off into ‘phew’ mode and relaxed and walked home. I have a strong feeling something like this happened because it avoids the whole ‘how did he drag her into the dark alleys’ problem (he never needed to because she indeed went there willingly- just walked there by herself!). It is at first counter-intuitive, but it is just the type of ploy a *advertiser censored* like this would use. Everyone is so fixated on the proximate moment, but if you forecast into the future a few mins, it is possible for him to skip into his car (maybe 15m up the road from Duchess Boutique), then do a u-turn, give Jill a friendly toot-toot with the horn on the way to the city- where he told her just a minute prior he was now headed- Jill waves goodbye and was now psychologically disarmed. He takes the victoria/percy route to end up right near her place somewhere at Lux Way, and encounters her somewhere around there. It solves all issues. So less is more. One step back (leaving her and driving off) to get two steps forward and be lying in wait for the ambush 5 mins later. Imagine how scared she would have been seeing that <modsnip> back in the side-streets. It would be like a bolt from the blue, given that she’d just dismissed the threat of him 5 mins prior. ****! This kind of a tactic is only possible by someone who has staked out this area thoroughly. I dare say police will be scouring months’ worth of CCTV footage to see this <modsnip> prowling along the place.
Also, I believe he has used this area (and others besides) as his prowling ground so I think he knows these streets (and other hunting grounds) like the back of his hand and has staked out, stalked, monitored people along here, and maybe even Jill herself previously. <modsnip> So he has strategy and cunning up his sleeve.

RIP Jill. You are missed by many.
Click to expand...

That's a good theory, but why didn't she call her brother back, or answer the phone when he called her back? I think she would have wanted to let him know what was happening after her earlier "I'm worried" message, and knowing he was planning on going downstairs to call her back.

I'm now wondering if her phone had something to do with her being lured away. Maybe he asked if he could use her phone, or even took it from her, and she followed.
 
GutFeeling! said:
Snipped: You didn't need social media. The case was shown live on TV from Jury selection to verdict. there is always a case being shown on a cable channel called courtv

Florida also has the "Sunshine Law" which means nearly everything is available to anhyone that wants it (naturally mainly media) - certainly not a lot hidden. It is really intriguing to watch.
Click to expand...

We don't have cable or pay TV, so hadn't really heard of the case apart from glimpses on Google News etc. We're not big TV watchers (careers are not all that conducive to TV watching) anyway, so not worth getting payTV.

And even for those who DO have payTV here in Australia - was that shown here?
 
DrWatson said:
We don't have cable or pay TV, so hadn't really heard of the case apart from glimpses on Google News etc. We're not big TV watchers (careers are not all that conducive to TV watching) anyway, so not worth getting payTV.

And even for those who DO have payTV here in Australia - was that shown here?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the case was shown on tv here but it was live streamed worldwide on internet. There were also quite a few reports in our MSM about it at the time.

Absolute mountains of info about that case in this thread...

Caylee Anthony 2 years old - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 
DrWatson said:
We don't have cable or pay TV, so hadn't really heard of the case apart from glimpses on Google News etc. We're not big TV watchers (careers are not all that conducive to TV watching) anyway, so not worth getting payTV.

And even for those who DO have payTV here in Australia - was that shown here?
Click to expand...

Doc,
It was easy to source through blogs as well as there being at least two comprehensive books since the trial, and several before the trial. The actual case is on youtube in segments.
I don't have pay TV but was able to follow it without.
 
OK - thanks for the info Marly and others. I guess the case must have just passed me by, as I really wasn't aware of it before.

It's only recently that I've had a bit more time work-wise to get more involved with the Baden-Clay case (being very close to home) and now the Jill Meagher case. Prior to that, life was a blur of work and sleep, with 18-hour days and on-call the rest of the time.

I must bring myself up to speed on that Anthony case, as many have referred to it.
 
Dion said:
That's a good theory, but why didn't she call her brother back, or answer the phone when he called her back? I think she would have wanted to let him know what was happening after her earlier "I'm worried" message, and knowing he was planning on going downstairs to call her back.

I'm now wondering if her phone had something to do with her being lured away. Maybe he asked if he could use her phone, or even took it from her, and she followed.
Click to expand...

Maybe she switched the phone off and put it back in her bag after blue hoodie hopped in his car to "go to the city" (which was really a quick spin around the block to plant himself near Lux Way for the ambush).
How did he find out she lived on Lux Way? Simple, cunning, yet again: "oh, i have a friend that lives just around the corner in <insert random street name from around the corner>. Do you live near there?" She would have told him she knows that street and that where she lives is just near there. This is the kind of eliciting device that Tarot readers and mediums use to gain the confidence of their 'clients', shall we say.

Further, he could have gone along with this 'my friend lives around the corner' story and said that he was heading to his mates place to crash for the night, so he also was heading down Hope St. ....
This, actually, is the most plausible 'if' her brother's account is correct- that he phoned her back immediately but got no response- for after turning the corner blue hoodie would have attacked her and switched her phone off.
But the husband is saying that he phoned all night and heard the phone ringing, which means the phone was on. These are mixed messages, so i am not sure which one is correct. I suspect there is some purposeful misdirection being played here.
 
Paulie11 said:
food for thought:

It is possible that blue hoodie took off after Jill was dismissing him at Duchess Boutique, ran to his car- parked there on Sydney road- so that Jill could see him get into his car and then drive off up Sydney road (north). Jill thought she was safe and the danger was gone. Then, maybe he turned into a side street left, came back down to Hope Street from the back route, and surprised her, jumped out and assaulted her.

Or he got into his car, drove south toward the city, then right onto Victoria street, and right again onto Percy St.- then found her somewhere on her way home in the dark side-streets/alleys and hit her and kidnapped her and promptly drove off.

Going back down south along Sydney road would have totally disarmed her because her mentality was to go north, and little did she think that he could do a right (victoria) and right (percy) and be right back to near where she was. She wouldn’t have suspected this as she’d be thinking he was gone- it’s just psychological short-sightedness that we all get from moment to moment. She would have been consumed with dealing with the immediate and present danger of his being right there; but as soon as he walked off, she switched off into ‘phew’ mode and relaxed and walked home. I have a strong feeling something like this happened because it avoids the whole ‘how did he drag her into the dark alleys’ problem (he never needed to because she indeed went there willingly- just walked there by herself!). It is at first counter-intuitive, but it is just the type of ploy a *advertiser censored* like this would use. Everyone is so fixated on the proximate moment, but if you forecast into the future a few mins, it is possible for him to skip into his car (maybe 15m up the road from Duchess Boutique), then do a u-turn, give Jill a friendly toot-toot with the horn on the way to the city- where he told her just a minute prior he was now headed- Jill waves goodbye and was now psychologically disarmed. He takes the victoria/percy route to end up right near her place somewhere at Lux Way, and encounters her somewhere around there. It solves all issues. So less is more. One step back (leaving her and driving off) to get two steps forward and be lying in wait for the ambush 5 mins later. Imagine how scared she would have been seeing that <modsnip> back in the side-streets. It would be like a bolt from the blue, given that she’d just dismissed the threat of him 5 mins prior. ****! This kind of a tactic is only possible by someone who has staked out this area thoroughly. I dare say police will be scouring months’ worth of CCTV footage to see this <modsnip> prowling along the place.
Also, I believe he has used this area (and others besides) as his prowling ground so I think he knows these streets (and other hunting grounds) like the back of his hand and has staked out, stalked, monitored people along here, and maybe even Jill herself previously. <modsnip> So he has strategy and cunning up his sleeve.

RIP Jill. You are missed by many.
Click to expand...

or, like i posted earlier, he could have just hurried off to the laneway where he had his car hidden, waiting in the darkness and grabbed her as she walked past, knowing she would, as had been staking her out for weeks. someone said cctv footage is usually recorded over in a loop system, but there may be some still available over the last week or so. i believe she was followed home on a number of occasions, cat and mouse games in the perps head, he probably enjoyed his little game. my opinion only
 
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