Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #7

[they'll get you]

I'm not sure whether that's rhetorical or whether you're agreeing with me. But my answer is, it was the puncher who killed the victim. Doesn't matter whether it was the blow of the fist or the impact of what the victim was driven against. But that's only the causation part of the case. Then you need to look at intention.

Someone is getting assaulted and they escape, run in front of a car and dies. Was it the assault or the car that caused their death?

I love Judge Judy
Seriously, everyone Is welcome to speak on WS, even me.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

There's also the possibility of carbon monoxide poising, maybe from the car in the garage ... just a thought 🤔

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[Itsapuzzle]

Poisoning, whoops, typo

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[Unit45]

I brought up a Psychics translation, some time back.

I was warned off posting such content, i would like to see how accurate that was.

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm thinking poison or suffocation with something like a pillow. But with strangulation or similar, you would expect some form of wounds/scratches to BR -- but he doesn't

RSBM

Great post, xu1d.
I am responding to the piece I quoted above, as I feel we don't know that Borce had no wounds or scratches. As tgy pointed out, he had a beard or grew a beard after Karen's disappearance. It seems Karen's disappearance may not have been officially reported for a while. And we don't know if he ever faced a physical exam by police, or if he refused one and then clammed up.

Potentially, 10 days had passed before police even sighted Borce.

- Karen went missing on 29th June (or night of 28th??)
- Sarah contacted Karen's friends for a few days, looking for mum
- 3rd July the media got hold of the story (which is when we heard about it, and the first thread was started)
- 8th July Borce was interviewed by police



JULY 3 2016
The daughter of missing Avondale Heights woman Karen Ristevski has made an emotional plea for public help to find her mother.
Sarah Ristevski, 21, told 3AW she had reached out to her mother's friends on Facebook but to no avail.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/d...-for-help-finding-mother-20160703-gpxclz.html

Mr Ristevski was questioned by homicide detectives on July 8 and denied any involvement in his wife's baffling disappearance.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/k...y-that-gripped-melbourne-20170220-guh7mq.html

 

[SouthAussie]

Someone is getting assaulted and they escape, run in front of a car and dies. Was it the assault or the car that caused their death?

I love Judge Judy
Seriously, everyone Is welcome to speak on WS, even me.

Lol. Yes you are, tgy! More than welcome. I like your zany humour!
It helps lift the mood a little, when these horrible and unnecessary deaths feel so dark and disturbing.

 

[JLZ]

Someone is getting assaulted and they escape, run in front of a car and dies. Was it the assault or the car that caused their death?

I love Judge Judy
Seriously, everyone Is welcome to speak on WS, even me.

Motorist drives into a pedestrian who dies. The driver argues, "It wasn't me, it was my car." Husband stabs his wife. "It wasn't me, it was the knife. My fingernails aren't that sharp."

Your example--depending on the circumstances, the assault could be the cause of the collision and therefore the cause of death.

 

[Armchair snoop]

(snipped)

I'm going to pick at your language, Armchair Snoop. Do you mean, if she was pushed downstairs by accident? Or do you mean, if you push someone downstairs and they're injured or killed, the result was an accident? If the latter, I really dislike the minimization implied by the term.

If she was pushed and fell down the stairs, sometimes my English good not :blushing:

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I brought up a Psychics translation, some time back.

I was warned off posting such content, i would like to see how accurate that was.

Interesting ..... how accurate was it, per chance?

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[Oona]

It seems there is a lot of speculation about the (likely) murder of Karen involving more than one person, if only as accessories.
I am of the opinion that only one person, BR, committed the crime and hid Karen's body. I am curious about how common it is for more than one person to be implicated in domestic homicide cases?
Am I alone in thinking BR acted alone?

 

[they'll get you]

Motorist drives into a pedestrian who dies. The driver argues, "It wasn't me, it was my car." Husband stabs his wife. "It wasn't me, it was the knife. My fingernails aren't that sharp."

Your example--depending on the circumstances, the assault could be the cause of the collision and therefore the cause of death.

It's was the person assaulting the victim which caused him to excape and get hit by the vehicle.
The person in the vehicle was innocent.

Anyway I find this a little more fun than talking about plastic bottles.

 

[JLZ]

It's was the person assaulting the victim which caused him to excape and get hit by the vehicle.
The person in the vehicle was innocent.

Anyway I find this a little more fun than talking about plastic bottles.

What I'm saying is that there being an object between the agent and the victim doesn't mean that the agent wasn't the cause. You wouldn't say a driver didn't cause a death because what physically impacted the victim was the car and not the driver's body. In the case of the assault, the assaulter might be in an analogous situation to the car's driver. Now it might be that the victim ran a block and had partially calmed down before encountering a car that was being dangerously driven. In that case I wouldn't say the assaulter caused the death. You'd have to look at each case individually.

 

[Lou Lou]

I brought up a Psychics translation, some time back.
I was warned off posting such content, i would like to see how accurate that was.

Funny, I typed in KR and psychic reading/prediction in Google but found nothing. You can usually find a heap of psychics blabbering about what they have been "told" or have "seen". Very quiet on KR. I remember Spirit Speak after she first disappeared. with a voice saying it was the husband...but I aint no psychic & I could have predicted that!
Can you DM the link to me please Unit?

 

[JLZ]

It seems there is a lot of speculation about the (likely) murder of Karen involving more than one person, if only as accessories.
I am of the opinion that only one person, BR, committed the crime and hid Karen's body. I am curious about how common it is for more than one person to be implicated in domestic homicide cases?
Am I alone in thinking BR acted alone?

Do you think the family believes him innocent or guilty?

 

[KG1]

I strongly believe that where Karen was found was where she was initially dumped.
No one under such scrutiny would be brazen enough to return and move the body and give themselves up... Especially given the media coverage and exposure this case has had.

Here's my 2c - let's assume she was moved to her final resting place from the family home (the last place she was known to have been). This would have meant she was murdered somewhere else in the house. I'm sure police would have searched for blood - nothing. No skull/bone fractures (rules out the "falling down the stairs" theory for me). I'm thinking poison or suffocation with something like a pillow. But with strangulation or similar, you would expect some form of wounds/scratches to BR -- but he doesn't have any. This points once again in the direction of Karen being poisoned, unsuspectingly (duh!). Not a scrap of evidence anywhere in the home (that we know about, aside from the shovel).

She's then moved into the garage and into the boot of her car, with her hand bang and phone to make things look less suspicious (she went for a walk to clear her head - remember? She would have taken these things, as most of us would). Her car is chosen to move the body because it's more likely that her DNA is found in the car she drives daily, as opposed to BR's vehicle. Most people would seek to distance themselves as far as possible in the shortest amount of time to avoid detection; hence, BR takes a drive up the Calder Freeway. He drives off the beaten track to somewhere quieter -- Karen's final resting place. The phone pings support this.

He tries digging a hole to conceal the body, but deep holes are hard to dig -- especially in the black of night. So he does the next best thing that any logical person would do - he conceals it in the immediate environment as best he can; between two fallen trees. He covers her, as most killers do when they know the victim, to both conceal the body and to comfort himself by not having to continue to look at the body.

What happens next is a mystery to me - where is KR's phone and hand bag? If these items are found with the body, this lends credence to the possibility that she went to this place herself and commits suicide. If the bag and phone are not there, then it's obvious that the body, phone and hand bang have been disposed of in different areas.

Another mystery here is motive - financial, secret lover, complete accident?

But what do I know?.. I'm just an arm chair detective

The phone pings were not in the 'black of night', but during the day, during the trip re the fuel guage that Borce 'forgot' to tell the police about.

 

[Armchair snoop]

:blowkiss::blowkiss:

What I'm saying is that there being an object between the agent and the victim doesn't mean that the agent wasn't the cause. You wouldn't say a driver didn't cause a death because what physically impacted the victim was the car and not the driver's body. In the case of the assault, the assaulter might be in an analogous situation to the car's driver. Now it might be that the victim ran a block and had partially calmed down before encountering a car that was being dangerously driven. In that case I wouldn't say the assaulter caused the death. You'd have to look at each case individually.

Getting into a very complex area here of 'intent'. e.g. what was your intention in performing that act? Was your intention to kill, hurt, escape etc etc. If it is claimed that it was an accident this is what the lawyers will more then likely argue over. And the arguments will get complex and words will be twisted. But IMO the accident theory wont hold much credence because of the disposal and concealment. Just my opinion. I didn't mean to start an argument.:facepalm: :blowkiss:

 

[SouthAussie]

It seems there is a lot of speculation about the (likely) murder of Karen involving more than one person, if only as accessories.
I am of the opinion that only one person, BR, committed the crime and hid Karen's body. I am curious about how common it is for more than one person to be implicated in domestic homicide cases?
Am I alone in thinking BR acted alone?

No Oona .... you are not alone. I am of this opinion too.

 

[JLZ]

Getting into a very complex area here of 'intent'. e.g. what was your intention in performing that act? Was your intention to kill, hurt, escape etc etc. If it is claimed that it was an accident this is what the lawyers will more then likely argue over. And the arguments will get complex and words will be twisted. But IMO the accident theory wont hold much credence because of the disposal and concealment. Just my opinion. I didn't mean to start an argument.:facepalm:

I didn't mean to be getting into intent. Intent (or similar mental element) is a separate question from causation. I'd rather not explore that right now. Enough comic relief.

 

[Specialk72]

I am interested in this point.

What if Karen, borce and Sarah were having an argument about AR's claims of sexual contact. Then Karen comes clean about it all and Borce is devastated and asks how could she, while Sarah is beside herself and can't believe this is reality. Sarah tells Karen she is disowning her as a mother and never wants to see her again, and Karen is devastated and pleads for Sarah not to leave her. Sarah is adamant that her mother is a disgrace and wants nothing to do with a molesterer. Sarah then leaves and goes to her boyfriends. Karen is devastated and sobbing uncontrollably while Borce is sitting on the couch, completely heartbroken and stunned. Karen then gets up and goes to the kitchen and grabs a knife and stabs herself and bleeds to death. Before Borce realises what is going on it is too late to help Karen. Borce, realising no one will believe him hatches a plan with the bro to dispose of Karen.

shocking.

Borce tells Sarah what happened and she believes him and sticks by him. this covers all bases.

i wonder if something like this happened.

this case is very fishy, i don't think it was a case of simple murder. something is off here.

if people were on the jury and got a story like this, would they believe it? I wouldn't know what to believe as this case is too fishy for my liking.

stabbing oneself, particularly a woman, is pretty rare. me thinks you have a vivid imagination.

probably got in a fight, push and shove happened, fell knocked head died or strangled/smothered in anger.

 

[SouthAussie]

stabbing oneself, particularly a woman, is pretty rare. me thinks you have a vivid imagination.

probably got in a fight, push and shove happened, fell knocked head died or strangled/smothered in anger.

BBM: Yes, this is what I think too.