Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Sparkles5777]

Thanks Itsapuzzle... I ended up looking it up again today... for some reason I just couldn't remember what kicked it all off...

So today's thoughts are more along the lines of the Barclay's money... I have taken a screenshot of the unclaimed money search site that says it is a total $14,890 or there abouts... so if the originally amount was$20,000 - then it stands to reason that she must have accessed some of it during her stay in the UK... she surely would not have kept enough cash on her person to pay for her hotels and travels for those first 6-8 weeks... and $5,000 seems adequate for back then - maybe she took $5k out n the other $110 was in transfer and banking fees?

That then led me to looking at her last known address on that unclaimed money note - "Barclays Bank Mint St Rye London United United Kingdom"... I cant find anything that makes sense of that address... all the postal addresses I see for Rye say East Sussex UK - they are not addressed as London United UK... which had me pondering maybe it was a Post Office banking setup? As Barclays had set up personal banking at the Post Office by then...

Or maybe just a big mistake - maybe it was meant to be Mint St London United and someone misheard and wrote/typed it down wrong and mistakenly added in Rye?

This is potentially her CBA account with her forwarding address being updated at some point to the Barleys address. The unclaimed money site seems to indicate that the address shown is the customers last given address. If it was returned from a Barlceys bank, surely they would know their own address correctly. The postcode isn't even there! Perhaps Marion (or whomever changed it) was not 100% familiar with UK addresses (Sussex not London etc.) which is why it appears wrong.

 

[Sparkles5777]

Although on that note, if she had drained all of her accounts with the $5k withdrawals every day, why then leave another $15k still untouched. Why not take it all? Hmmm.

 

[Sparkles5777]

More rambling thoughts. There is a note on Marions unclaimed funds that says the reason it is there is section 69BA which refers to section 69 of the Banking Act (I've checked and my parents have a few dollars in there from elsewhere and it refers to another number)

According to ASIC:

Section 69 of the Banking Act identifies unclaimed money as all principle, interest, dividends, bonuses, profits and sums of money legally payable by the ADI, but where the time limit for commencing proceedings for recovery of these funds has expired. This includes dormant accounts where there has been no deposit or withdrawal by the owner of the account for seven years.

However, this does not include:

• unclaimed money held in retirement savings accounts (withi the meaing of the Retirement Savings Accounts Act 1997)
• money in an account that is denominated in a currency other than Australian currency
• money in a children’s account
• farm management deposits (within the meaning of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997)
• term deposits
• money held in an account with the ADI in respect of which the holder of the account, or an agent of the holder, has notified the ADI, between the end of the year and the day the statement is delivered to the Treasurer, that the holder wishes to treat the account as active.

And says specifically it cannot be put there if it is money held in another currency...

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes, recap episode good idea Intrigued, as a lot of details have changed along the way as new information has come to hand.
As an aside, there's a most excellent podcast that reminds me quite a bit of The Lady Vanishes in many ways (how the case was handled in the early days, etc) it is most excellent but unfortunately remains unsolved at this point, it's called Unconcluded (Jennifer Kesse) - Season 1 - they have episodes called Sidebars where they play voicemail questions from listeners and also read out questions sent to them, that's good too.

Ohhhh havent heard if that podcast
Itsapuzzle. Sounds good I'll have to have a listen. Thank you!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thanks Itsapuzzle... I ended up looking it up again today... for some reason I just couldn't remember what kicked it all off...

So today's thoughts are more along the lines of the Barclay's money... I have taken a screenshot of the unclaimed money search site that says it is a total $14,890 or there abouts... so if the originally amount was$20,000 - then it stands to reason that she must have accessed some of it during her stay in the UK... she surely would not have kept enough cash on her person to pay for her hotels and travels for those first 6-8 weeks... and $5,000 seems adequate for back then - maybe she took $5k out n the other $110 was in transfer and banking fees?

That then led me to looking at her last known address on that unclaimed money note - "Barclays Bank Mint St Rye London United United Kingdom"... I cant find anything that makes sense of that address... all the postal addresses I see for Rye say East Sussex UK - they are not addressed as London United UK... which had me pondering maybe it was a Post Office banking setup? As Barclays had set up personal banking at the Post Office by then...

Or maybe just a big mistake - maybe it was meant to be Mint St London United and someone misheard and wrote/typed it down wrong and mistakenly added in Rye?

Could you post the screenshot NessaP?
What was the date the funds were returned to Aust??

 

[Sparkles5777]

Could you post the screenshot NessaP?
What was the date the funds were returned to Aust??

 

[Sparkles5777]

It says 2004 however that is that date is was reported by CBA as unclaimed for 7 years. So it would have last been touched in 1997 -1998

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thanks Itsapuzzle... I ended up looking it up again today... for some reason I just couldn't remember what kicked it all off...

So today's thoughts are more along the lines of the Barclay's money... I have taken a screenshot of the unclaimed money search site that says it is a total $14,890 or there abouts... so if the originally amount was$20,000 - then it stands to reason that she must have accessed some of it during her stay in the UK... she surely would not have kept enough cash on her person to pay for her hotels and travels for those first 6-8 weeks... and $5,000 seems adequate for back then - maybe she took $5k out n the other $110 was in transfer and banking fees?

That then led me to looking at her last known address on that unclaimed money note - "Barclays Bank Mint St Rye London United United Kingdom"... I cant find anything that makes sense of that address... all the postal addresses I see for Rye say East Sussex UK - they are not addressed as London United UK... which had me pondering maybe it was a Post Office banking setup? As Barclays had set up personal banking at the Post Office by then...

Or maybe just a big mistake - maybe it was meant to be Mint St London United and someone misheard and wrote/typed it down wrong and mistakenly added in Rye?

Good points!
I wondered if the difference in from the 20k sent to UK and the 14.8K returned could have been due to differences in the exchange rates (97 to 04).
In June 97 the AUD to GDP rate was in the .45s and the .46s. In June 2004 (7yrs later) the exchange rates were in the .37s and .38s (much better). The shortfall isnt due to the exchange rate, theres more missing than we thought.

The odd appearance of the returning bank details on the unclaimed monies site is probably because the 'last know address' field on the site is formatted for Australian addresses (street, state, country).
'The mint' is a street name in the town of Rye in the shire county of East Sussex in London UK. The address itself may not necessarily be a Barclays branch, it could be a processing/service centre.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thank you Sparkles 5777!!!

 

[NesssaP]

More rambling thoughts. There is a note on Marions unclaimed funds that says the reason it is there is section 69BA which refers to section 69 of the Banking Act (I've checked and my parents have a few dollars in there from elsewhere and it refers to another number)

According to ASIC:

Section 69 of the Banking Act identifies unclaimed money as all principle, interest, dividends, bonuses, profits and sums of money legally payable by the ADI, but where the time limit for commencing proceedings for recovery of these funds has expired. This includes dormant accounts where there has been no deposit or withdrawal by the owner of the account for seven years.

However, this does not include:

• unclaimed money held in retirement savings accounts (withi the meaing of the Retirement Savings Accounts Act 1997)
• money in an account that is denominated in a currency other than Australian currency
• money in a children’s account
• farm management deposits (within the meaning of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997)
• term deposits
• money held in an account with the ADI in respect of which the holder of the account, or an agent of the holder, has notified the ADI, between the end of the year and the day the statement is delivered to the Treasurer, that the holder wishes to treat the account as active.

And says specifically it cannot be put there if it is money held in another currency...

It very clearly has a $ sign not a pound sign... and I can't imagine that the fees on the account would have added up to over $5000 even if it was completely dormant for 7 years - that would be an extremely high set of fees...

I did read that there were fees involved with the money transfer itself - so maybe that could account for some of the odd $110 as well?

So either Marion couldn't access the $20k available through Barclays and it was eaten up somehow... or she had managed to access it and only had time to use a portion of it before things took an unexpected turn...

Does anyone know what date the money started being taken out in Australia ? Was the Ashmore withdrawals before or after her apparent return to QLD ? I know they were before the Byron withdrawals...

 

[NesssaP]

Good points!
I wondered if the difference in from the 20k sent to UK and the 14.8K returned could have been due to differences in the exchange rates (97 to 04).
In June 97 the AUD to GDP rate was in the .45s and the .46s. In June 2004 (7yrs later) the exchange rates were in the .37s and .38s (much better). The shortfall isnt due to the exchange rate, theres more missing than we thought.

The odd appearance of the returning bank details on the unclaimed monies site is probably because the 'last know address' field on the site is formatted for Australian addresses (street, state, country).
'The mint' is a street name in the town of Rye in the shire county of East Sussex in London UK. The address itself may not necessarily be a Barclays branch, it could be a processing/service centre.

I spent a fair amount of time on google maps last night trying To make some sense of the address... I can't find anything saying a post office or bank was located on "The Mint" in Rye back in 1997... and can't pin down if there was either of them in "Mint St, London" - near Southwark... it stands to reason that both those streets would have been aptly named for having banks along them...

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

More rambling thoughts. There is a note on Marions unclaimed funds that says the reason it is there is section 69BA which refers to section 69 of the Banking Act (I've checked and my parents have a few dollars in there from elsewhere and it refers to another number)

According to ASIC:

Section 69 of the Banking Act identifies unclaimed money as all principle, interest, dividends, bonuses, profits and sums of money legally payable by the ADI, but where the time limit for commencing proceedings for recovery of these funds has expired. This includes dormant accounts where there has been no deposit or withdrawal by the owner of the account for seven years.

However, this does not include:

• unclaimed money held in retirement savings accounts (withi the meaing of the Retirement Savings Accounts Act 1997)
• money in an account that is denominated in a currency other than Australian currency
• money in a children’s account
• farm management deposits (within the meaning of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997)
• term deposits
• money held in an account with the ADI in respect of which the holder of the account, or an agent of the holder, has notified the ADI, between the end of the year and the day the statement is delivered to the Treasurer, that the holder wishes to treat the account as active.

And says specifically it cannot be put there if it is money held in another currency...

I think that second point refers to foreign currency accounts. Those are accounts held in Australia but the money in them is another currency.

I dont think foreign currency accounts were available in 1997 but I couldnt find a date to confirm that.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I spent a fair amount of time on google maps last night trying To make some sense of the address... I can't find anything saying a post office or bank was located on "The Mint" in Rye back in 1997... and can't pin down if there was either of them in "Mint St, London" - near Southwark... it stands to reason that both those streets would have been aptly named for having banks along them...

Yes it does sound like a banking precinct. If the address in Mint street was a barclays processing/service centre it may not have been published. Non-customer facing sites use their actual location internally but usually a head office address externally.

 

[bennythedog]

Barclays in Rye, although it says it is in High St, it is right at the point where the High Street meets The Mint. It closed earlier this year, but from the address it does appear that it was the Rye branch referred to

Google Maps

 

[Itsapuzzle]

It's peculiar that Marion went to all the trouble of changing her name by deed poll and yet the Barclays Bank account, CBA, Colonial, they're all in the name of Marion Barter. The Customs fella even found Marion Barter - what was the point in name change if it wasn't used anywhere? It's all so very strange.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

A post has gone up on the Facebook page. A conversations episode is coming out tomorrow (Marion's birthday) and they're going to talk about F. Remakel

 

[InspectorGadget]

Barclays in Rye, although it says it is in High St, it is right at the point where the High Street meets The Mint. It closed earlier this year, but from the address it does appear that it was the Rye branch referred to

Google Maps

In any case, Rye is certainly in East Sussex and no way is it in London, but perhaps it means "via London" which would make more sense.

 

[poppypopcorn]

Out of all the UK banks back in 1997, Barclays was the one with the international presence. It makes absolute sense that this is the bank which Marion transferred funds to in order to finance her trip. But Rye? Weird. Marion was in Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge (not the same place) which are 30 miles from Rye. Barclays has had a branch in Tunbridge Wells since 1817, according to their website. Tunbridge Wells is a bigger place than Rye, busier, more tourists.

The whole Sussex thing is deeply odd. It's an odd place for a holiday unless you had specific reasons for being there. The ease of access to the continent through the tunnel from Ashford or the ferries from Dover is an obvious appeal. Also, I did a bit of digging and in 1997, the UK government weren't exit checking people leaving the UK. Marion could have hopped on a ferry or Eurostar train and there would be no records of that - only records if she then re-entered the UK.

 

[Mel 1303]

It's peculiar that Marion went to all the trouble of changing her name by deed poll and yet the Barclays Bank account, CBA, Colonial, they're all in the name of Marion Barter. The Customs fella even found Marion Barter - what was the point in name change if it wasn't used anywhere? It's all so very strange.

The banks I understand- she only changed her name on her passport- all her other identification was in Marion Barter. She had a plan, and being able to come back into the country undetected must have been part of it. I doubt she intended to change her name for ever. Its the customs guy that gets me. She travelled under Florabella Remakel, and filled out the incoming customs slip as Florabella. So how on earth was this person able to tell Sally when she came back? Even if he searched for a passport number, why didn't the fact that the passport had a completely different name ring any alarm bells? Who was this customs person? We have pondered this her a number of times over the months, but not really come up with a viable theory as to how this actually happened.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Conversations 15, good to hear all the updates and things they're working on. In an ideal world that Monsieur Remakel ad should have been jumped on by the police as soon as it came to hand, and Fernand ruled in or out in an instant ... ah well, c'est la vie.
At one point Bryan says to Sally "why are people so powerfully moved by the search?" Good question. I've been in Websleuths since 2012 and this is only the second case I've followed. For me it really got my interest because I was thinking how incredibly sad and unfair if Marion didn't estrange herself .... and her parents have passed away thinking she just didn't want to see them anymore ... and that goes for her sisters, Sally, family and friends too. The "what if" really got me. What if? "Oh, she just wanted to start a new life" .... "what if?" I feel devastatingly sad for Sally that her search for answers is now in its 23rd year. Absolutely intolerable not knowing and more power to her for never giving up on her search. Hopefully the answers are close at hand now.
When you think about it, if foul play has occurred, it's close to the perfect crime - coerce, bewitch someone, get them to change their name (and in this case they say the Salvation Army/police were told that Marion said she wanted to start a new life) - the police aren't interested in looking, family accept it and off everyone goes! Who knows what happens the next week, month .... they could disappear off the face of the earth and no-one's looking. Had a thought, if something is found to have occurred, maybe they could bring a law in where police have to do like welfare checks on people following such events, yearly or five yearly, just to make sure they're okay and it's really them .... 'Marion's Law', just a thought.