Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Even if the Hire Car was just a story - would she really go over there leaving herself with public transport her only option? She was a fairly independent woman, even if she had a friend or travelling companion would she really limit herself that way? I really would like to ascertain whether she left Australia using the Remakel passport or not... if she did not and yet she came back on the Remakel passport - that just complicates things a whole lot further...

Also, as it is now apparent that someone with the surname "Remakel" was in Australia as recently as 1990 - what are the chances she had a friendship with someone of that surname back in 1990 (that was not Fernand) and may have developed further? She was still living in the Sydney area 1990, she divorced from Ray in 1990 also...

Admittedly I haven't had a chance to listen to the new Conversations so I might be missing some new info... Facebook makes it sound like something is about to break though...

Once the Florabella passport is applied for the Marion passport would have been surrendered and then cancelled (they literally cut the pages). I dont think she could have been in possession of two passports at the same time.

Sorry for all the posts today everyone!!

 

[NesssaP]

Once the Florabella passport is applied for the Marion passport would have been surrendered and then cancelled (they literally cut the pages). I dont think she could have been in possession of two passports at the same time.

Sorry for all the posts today everyone!!

That's exactly what I thought - she could not have had both passports when she left the country... So could she have had the Remakel passport sorted out that quickly after a name change with no other identification associated with the name change? This is the first part of the puzzle for me and shouldn't be too complicated to resolve... and may provide a strong basis for discovering whether this was a well planned disappearance or not...

I think IF she changed her name herself that maybe she did it for the romantic ideology of travelling incognito during her European adventures... I really don't think she planned on disappearing from the lives of her entire family - BUT - if she didn't change her name then there is a whole other angle to investigate...

I actually think that's a fabulous idea. I've often wondered about some things that I vaguely remember hearing, but don't have time to wade through 14 episodes and conversations to find it.

Coincidentally, I transcribe investigative interviews for a living and transcribing TLV episodes would be awesome!

Really? I considered trying to do it myself, but as much as I can type fairly well, I don't think I am perfectly suited to pulling it off, would take me forever hahaha... Maybe you could contact TLV and offer? Sally seemed fairly receptive to the idea when I sent the message...

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Even if the Hire Car was just a story - would she really go over there leaving herself with public transport her only option? She was a fairly independent woman, even if she had a friend or travelling companion would she really limit herself that way? I really would like to ascertain whether she left Australia using the Remakel passport or not... if she did not and yet she came back on the Remakel passport - that just complicates things a whole lot further...

Also, as it is now apparent that someone with the surname "Remakel" was in Australia as recently as 1990 - what are the chances she had a friendship with someone of that surname back in 1990 (that was not Fernand) and may have developed further? She was still living in the Sydney area 1990, she divorced from Ray in 1990 also...

Admittedly I haven't had a chance to listen to the new Conversations so I might be missing some new info... Facebook makes it sound like something is about to break though...

The reference to no Remakel's since 1990, I took that as being how far back they looked in their research, didn't take it as meaning one was here at any point. And as there were none found on the electoral rolls and in the phone books, etc, from 1990 it looks like Marion never met a Remakel in Australia. Just my thoughts. Unless .... unless, of course, they changed their name by deed poll to something else .... h'mm ..

 

[Deleted member 249471]

With regards to the passport, Sally saw a copy that Gary left out for her. In the podcast, she said it was in Florabella’s name BUT the bottom bit with the arrows contained the names Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel AND Marion Barter.

I don’t know if this was normal practice at the time. Would love to hear more if someone knows about this stuff.

This may explain how the customs friend found Florabella’s flight when given Marion’s name.

 

[NesssaP]

The reference to no Remakel's since 1990, I took that as being how far back they looked in their research, didn't take it as meaning one was here at any point. And as there were none found on the electoral rolls and in the phone books, etc, from 1990 it looks like Marion never met a Remakel in Australia. Just my thoughts. Unless .... unless, of course, they changed their name by deed poll to something else .... h'mm ..

Wow - my brain didn't even twig to the possibility of that meaning 1990 was the limit of their search on the name Remakel - I actually took it to mean that there had been someone by the name of Remakel in Australia - but they had left in 1990 and there has been noone since (other than Marion)...

Such a different interpretation and perspective - this is why talking about things opens up different avenues... Now I want to clarify exactly what they meant by there being no Remakel since 1990 ...

 

[NesssaP]

With regards to the passport, Sally saw a copy that Gary left out for her. In the podcast, she said it was in Florabella’s name BUT the bottom bit with the arrows contained the names Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel AND Marion Barter.

I don’t know if this was normal practice at the time. Would love to hear more if someone knows about this stuff.

This may explain how the customs friend found Florabella’s flight when given Marion’s name.

On that note... would her previous passport names have also shown? She had her maiden name of Wilson, and then Warren, Brown and Barter... apparently she flew overseas with Johnny Warren for a game or two and aEuropean holiday with Ray Barter (I'm sure that was stated somewhere) - so shouldn't Marion Warren have also been noted as a previous passport identity/name?

 

[NesssaP]

Sorry... I seem to be hogging the thread... just so many questions and first time I have had the chance to speak with others that are up to date with the Podcast... so I'm a bit over enthusiastic... my apologies...

I just listened to Conversations 15 this afternoon... and looking forward to hearing the next Episode...

My heart goes out to Sally and her family - it's such a heart wrenching mess of a situation for her to be in and struggle through and it's not just the not knowing but the fighting to have a right to know... fighting to have her concerns and fears taken seriously...

The bitter sweet emotions she must be going through now that she is finally being taken seriously... I just can't imagine...

 

[K8g]

I have a few red herrings to throw into the conversation here. They're probably irrational, but hey, nothing about this case seems rational and I don't think anything would surprise me. So many scenarios to consider, but no real conclusions to any of them.

Its understandable and completely natural that Sally is disappointed other members of the family havent supported her search but Alison/Bryan should be supporting Sally better with what goes to air. It is as unreasonable to expect Marions sisters to say they were wrong in not supporting the podcast as it is for Sally to say she was wrong to do the podcast because of the pain it causes them. There is no wrong way to deal with what they have been through.

I thought the same thing. I was cringing about for those last 10 or so minutes. Sally was rather silent when Bryan spoke about it, after she'd shared her views initially. I do wonder, though, if these sisters have some more information that might account for the dismissiveness of Marion's disappearance? I wonder if they knew about the car sale arrangement? Hmm...

Once the Florabella passport is applied for the Marion passport would have been surrendered and then cancelled (they literally cut the pages). I dont think she could have been in possession of two passports at the same time.

I wonder what would happen if it was also a replacement for a previously "lost" passport, i.e. if you didn't actually have the old one to surrender?

I do know that many places (including some government organisations) will still accept an expired passport as identification. Obviously not for international travel, but for banking, etc, it would probably be accepted. My son used his expired passport to apply for a tax file number last year.

Do we know if Marion had any previous international travel? I'm just wondering if her original passport had expired by the time she got a new passport with her new name. It is very strange that the passport seems to be the only formal identification that's been changed to Florabella's name (please correct me if I'm wrong there).

Really? I considered trying to do it myself, but as much as I can type fairly well, I don't think I am perfectly suited to pulling it off, would take me forever hahaha... Maybe you could contact TLV and offer? Sally seemed fairly receptive to the idea when I sent the message...

I probably should do that!

That's all from me!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Friday's spontaneous thought .... the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that if Marion deliberately estranged herself from her family she would have written a letter to explain .... we've heard how creative she was, especially in her writing, so I'm thinking she would have written a letter with all the Laura Ashley flourishes she could come up with to let everyone know why she was heading off .... into the sunset. She could have come up with a remarkable story, but no, there was no letter. End of Friday's spontaneous thought.

Wow - my brain didn't even twig to the possibility of that meaning 1990 was the limit of their search on the name Remakel - I actually took it to mean that there had been someone by the name of Remakel in Australia - but they had left in 1990 and there has been noone since (other than Marion)...

Such a different interpretation and perspective - this is why talking about things opens up different avenues... Now I want to clarify exactly what they meant by there being no Remakel since 1990 ...

Yes, NesssaP, that is interesting how we interpret things differently ..... I'd like to know for sure too what was meant by it now I'm doubting my interpretation Cheers

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

With regards to the passport, Sally saw a copy that Gary left out for her. In the podcast, she said it was in Florabella’s name BUT the bottom bit with the arrows contained the names Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel AND Marion Barter.

I don’t know if this was normal practice at the time. Would love to hear more if someone knows about this stuff.

This may explain how the customs friend found Florabella’s flight when given Marion’s name.

I dont know much about passports but have been through the process myself albeit much later on.

I changed my name (via deedpol) in 2003 because I was married outside of Australia and applied for a passport in my married name in 2006.
When I applied I had to submit my current maiden name passport and my new married name birth certificate with the application. When the new passport came, I got the old one back but they had cut off the section that has the arrows in it (theres a 1cm strip missing from the front cover). My new passport only has my married name in the arrows at the bottom and my passport number was changed with the new passport.
My applocation was 10 years after Marion's so the style of the document and the process was probably different. I also think (but cant quite remember) that that there was a difference if you applied within 12months of the name change (whereas mine was 3 years later).

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Friday's spontaneous thought .... the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that if Marion deliberately estranged herself from her family she would have written a letter to explain .... we've heard how creative she was, especially in her writing, so I'm thinking she would have written a letter with all the Laura Ashley flourishes she could come up with to let everyone know why she was heading off .... into the sunset. She could have come up with a remarkable story, but no, there was no letter. End of Friday's spontaneous thought.

Yes, NesssaP, that is interesting how we interpret things differently ..... I'd like to know for sure too what was meant by it now I'm doubting my interpretation Cheers

I've wondered the same thing about a letter, particularly as she is described by many as dramatic. This is why I dont believe she would have suicided.

Marion went to great lengths to display herself in a particular way, that image seems to have been important to her so perhaps if she has chosen to estrange herself the explanation wont happen until she is gone (in order to have the last word and tell the story in her own way).

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I thought the same thing. I was cringing about for those last 10 or so minutes. Sally was rather silent when Bryan spoke about it, after she'd shared her views initially. I do wonder, though, if these sisters have some more information that might account for the dismissiveness of Marion's disappearance? I wonder if they knew about the car sale arrangement? Hmm...

From the interview one of the sisters gave they werent in real close contact with Marion in the period before she disappeared. I dont think they have any problem with Sally looking for her mum, I just dont think they want to be involved in the media/public attention.
From what Sally said in the latest episode I dont think its so much that what the Aunties know could help locate Marion, but more that what they know would help her (Sally) get to know her Mum. This poor family.
I get cross with the podcasts passive aggressive approach to gathering information. I know they want to help Sally but they should also consider what all this will cost Sally. They dont have to demonize Garry Sheehan, CBA, Ferdinand or Marion's sisters. I personally dont think Ferdinand has anything to do with Marion, but he could have been a rich source of information about the Remakel name and Luxembourg had he been approached in a way that built rapport rather than interrogated.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I get cross with the podcasts passive aggressive approach to gathering information. I know they want to help Sally but they should also consider what all this will cost Sally. They dont have to demonize Garry Sheehan, CBA, Ferdinand or Marion's sisters. I personally dont think Ferdinand has anything to do with Marion, but he could have been a rich source of information about the Remakel name and Luxembourg had he been approached in a way that built rapport rather than interrogated.

Yes, there have been times when they have crossed the line, in my opinion .... the fragility of people concerns me greatly. Conversations 15 mentions they have absolutely no idea if Fernand has anything whatsoever to do with the matter so be kind when making comments, and yet .... yet, in a recent episode they happily played derogatory comments made by some anonymous German lady criticising his personality - I thought that was mean and unnecessary, especially as he may just be a fella with nothing to do whatsoever with this matter. I hope that's okay to say, just my opinion. And the anonymous lady, she got a bit of a raw deal too, details like she worked with him and instantly became a girlfriend .... not too hard to join the dots if you know Fernand. Ah well, there it is, a little Friday rant.

 

[Mel 1303]

I am listening to conversations 15.
Brian says, at 36 mins in, that the assumptions Marion's sisters made were based on beliefs that have been proved false. When did that happen? How did they prove that bank security did not talk to Marion (or someone purporting to be her, as some believe), that the message that she was cross about the car, that she is not in Byron Bay but far far away never happened?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I am listening to conversations 15.
Brian says, at 36 mins in, that the assumptions Marion's sisters made were based on beliefs that have been proved false. When did that happen? How did they prove that bank security did not talk to Marion (or someone purporting to be her, as some believe), that the message that she was cross about the car, that she is not in Byron Bay but far far away never happened?

My interpretation only Mel 1303, but I think Bryan was just referring to her now being placed on the Missing Persons Register and that the homicide team are reviewing the case with the possibility of a Coroner's inquest, that's all I think he meant.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

My interpretation only Mel 1303, but I think Bryan was just referring to her now being placed on the Missing Persons Register and that the homicide team are reviewing the case with the possibility of a Coroner's inquest, that's all I think he meant.

Even so Marion being added to the missing person register and the homicide squad reviewing the case isnt proof that the belief (Marion left to start a new life) is false.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes, there have been times when they have crossed the line, in my opinion .... the fragility of people concerns me greatly. Conversations 15 mentions they have absolutely no idea if Fernand has anything whatsoever to do with the matter so be kind when making comments, and yet .... yet, in a recent episode they happily played derogatory comments made by some anonymous German lady criticising his personality - I thought that was mean and unnecessary, especially as he may just be a fella with nothing to do whatsoever with this matter. I hope that's okay to say, just my opinion. And the anonymous lady, she got a bit of a raw deal too, details like she worked with him and instantly became a girlfriend .... not too hard to join the dots if you know Fernand. Ah well, there it is, a little Friday rant.

From what is said in conversations 15 it doesnt sound like the interview with Ferdinand and his wife goes very well.
They suggest listeners "make up their own mind" which i interpret means nothing much was gained from the interview. If there is no clear link identified between this man and Marion I question whether the interview should be broadcast - at least until an actual link has been established.

 

[Meligator]

From what is said in conversations 15 it doesnt sound like the interview with Ferdinand and his wife goes very well.
They suggest listeners "make up their own mind" which i interpret means nothing much was gained from the interview. If there is no clear link identified between this man and Marion I question whether the interview should be broadcast - at least until an actual link has been established.

The interview would most certainly be something Fernand agreed to and an opportunity for him to share whatever information he wants to share publicly.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Sunday morning thoughts .... have been wondering about something Bryan said in Episode 14 at around 35.40 about the Monsieur Remakel ad
“... listing a PO Box and phone number just 20 minutes away from where Marion lived at the time.” I thought Marion lived in Ashmore at the time .... just checked distance between Lennox Head and Ashmore and it’s 118.6 km (1 hr 22 min), and from the Ballina phone number it’s 120.8 km to Ashmore. Did Marion live at another address at end of ‘94? End of Sunday thoughts.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Still thinking about the recently released info that no-one named Remakel has entered or left country since 1990 (or living here for that matter) ... sorry for going on about it, but this news is not just incidental, it's monumental .... a lot of theories are thrown to the wind now. We are either dealing with a go-between or someone using the fake name of Remakel. It's huge that no Remakels have been here and yet it seems to have been skimmed over as though it's not of too much importance. Come on NSW police, it's time, can you just push a few buttons on your keyboard and find out who the number was registered to? Slot it in here if you like, that would be nice, no worries. Cheers