Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[NesssaP]

I agree Poppypopcorn - I don't think Rye makes for an ideal base to travel from if you are being a long term tourist in the UK with a lot of luggage - but I do think London makes more sense... Tonbridge is only a 1 hour drive from London - so easy for a day trip or two... Rye would certainly be worth visiting - but I think your travels out from there would be more limited... Rye would only be a 2 hr drive from London as well if you were really keen on going there.

Do we know how familiar Marion was with the UK? I know she had been to Europe previously and had originally planned on travelling the Orient Express - which she said she was no longer planning on...

Is there solid evidence that her passport was in the name of Remakel when she left Australia? I know there is talk of her entering back under the Remakel passport and having signed customs/entry documents, but I was left with the feeling that this wasn't proven to be the actual "Remakel" passport? Might it have still been under Marion Barter ? I keep wondering if the name change only became highlighted in 2011 because the passport wasn't actually in the Remakel name and it was just a flag that managed to connect the identities eventually...

Surely if the passport was changed and used for travel in 1997 - that information would have been clear and passed along to Sally from the beginning? Maybe the police couldn't tell Sally the name - but they would have been able to say that she has changed her whole identity and wishes a fresh start with no contact? Why would they have held that information back and not have noted anything?

 

[Mel 1303]

The passport name change was in Australia. Police have identified and interviewed the dentist who witnessed the photograph for her passport.

The passport name change is information that should not have been given to Sally. It is part of the police brief that lead to Garry Sheehan coming to the conclusion that Marion walked away. It is part of the info that Garry left on the coffee table while he had a bathroom break at Sally's house. He was giving her more info than he should have, so that she could see how he came to this conclusion. I don't think this information was clear immediately- she only changed her name on her passport, and only used that name (that we know of) to go in and out of the country. Everything else was in Marion Barter. I believe Garry Sheehan found the name change information, and he was not part of the original investigation.

We know that the passport reentered Australia in July. I wonder if it has been confirmed that the flight left London, and if so when it left London. It sounds like she spent time in Japan on her way to London- did she have an extended stopover on the way back?

 

[Sparkles5777]

I cant help but wonder about what the police know, but are not able to say due to privacy.

Marion was added to the missing person list in 2007 and then removed a few years later without explanation. She was also pulled as the face of missing persons week at the last minute. Again without explaination. Even Gary Sheehan, who had been working on her case since 2009 personally closed it himself in 2016 again, without any real basis (to our knowledge anyway) of anyone having spoken to her or sighting her. I don't belive he is incompetent in any way. It seems rather unreasonable and unlikely that she has been removed from missing persons/case closed a number of times without any proof of life since 1997, simply because she changed her name. Surely the police know more than they have been allowed to tell Sally, for whatever reason?

 

[NesssaP]

The passport name change was in Australia. Police have identified and interviewed the dentist who witnessed the photograph for her passport.

The passport name change is information that should not have been given to Sally. It is part of the police brief that lead to Garry Sheehan coming to the conclusion that Marion walked away. It is part of the info that Garry left on the coffee table while he had a bathroom break at Sally's house. He was giving her more info than he should have, so that she could see how he came to this conclusion. I don't think this information was clear immediately- she only changed her name on her passport, and only used that name (that we know of) to go in and out of the country. Everything else was in Marion Barter. I believe Garry Sheehan found the name change information, and he was not part of the original investigation.

We know that the passport reentered Australia in July. I wonder if it has been confirmed that the flight left London, and if so when it left London. It sounds like she spent time in Japan on her way to London- did she have an extended stopover on the way back?

From what I understand Gary Sheehan was not immediately made aware of the name change and it was something he himself discovered in 2011? Which is why I am questioning whether she actually travelled out of the country on the "Remakel" passport - because that would have been immediate information discovered when Sally was questioning the police on who on earth was accessing her Mother's bank account when she at that point in time believed her Mother to still be in the UK. Sally's initial steps in the beginning of all of this was with the assumption her Mother was still overseas, and until told otherwise Sally would have been under the impression that someone was falsely accessing her Mother's bank accounts, she had no reason to believe or even consider her Mother was back in Australia unannounced until someone told her otherwise.

First thing the police would have had to do was check whether Marion was actually in Australia or not, and they would have been searching for Marion Barter's passport information from the get go, and if that passport was changed and used as "Remakel" when Marion left in June 1997, then the police would have had that information immediately?

My initial questions here at Websleuths was in relation the timeframe of a name change and then a subsequent passport change - was her name change legalised as of May 1997 or was it applied for in May 1997? When and where was the "Remakel" passport approved and collected?

The name change and passport change take time - and back then it was a longer process than it is now... I find it hard to believe that she managed both in such a short time and didn't consider changing her car license details to Remakel also... Which would have made her travel arrangements even easier overseas... Imagine trying to rent a car in the UK with a passport and foreign license in completely different names?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Out of all the UK banks back in 1997, Barclays was the one with the international presence. It makes absolute sense that this is the bank which Marion transferred funds to in order to finance her trip. But Rye? Weird. Marion was in Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge (not the same place) which are 30 miles from Rye. Barclays has had a branch in Tunbridge Wells since 1817, according to their website. Tunbridge Wells is a bigger place than Rye, busier, more tourists.

The whole Sussex thing is deeply odd. It's an odd place for a holiday unless you had specific reasons for being there. The ease of access to the continent through the tunnel from Ashford or the ferries from Dover is an obvious appeal. Also, I did a bit of digging and in 1997, the UK government weren't exit checking people leaving the UK. Marion could have hopped on a ferry or Eurostar train and there would be no records of that - only records if she then re-entered the UK.

Interesting. When they check the passenger list for the flights Marion was on maybe they'll find someone with a link to Sussex/Tunbridge Wells, that'd be interesting, and if they were sitting next to Marion, even more so.

 

[Sparkles5777]

From what I understand Gary Sheehan was not immediately made aware of the name change and it was something he himself discovered in 2011? Which is why I am questioning whether she actually travelled out of the country on the "Remakel" passport - because that would have been immediate information discovered when Sally was questioning the police on who on earth was accessing her Mother's bank account when she at that point in time believed her Mother to still be in the UK. Sally's initial steps in the beginning of all of this was with the assumption her Mother was still overseas, and until told otherwise Sally would have been under the impression that someone was falsely accessing her Mother's bank accounts, she had no reason to believe or even consider her Mother was back in Australia unannounced until someone told her otherwise.

First thing the police would have had to do was check whether Marion was actually in Australia or not, and they would have been searching for Marion Barter's passport information from the get go, and if that passport was changed and used as "Remakel" when Marion left in June 1997, then the police would have had that information immediately?

My initial questions here at Websleuths was in relation the timeframe of a name change and then a subsequent passport change - was her name change legalised as of May 1997 or was it applied for in May 1997? When and where was the "Remakel" passport approved and collected?

The name change and passport change take time - and back then it was a longer process than it is now... I find it hard to believe that she managed both in such a short time and didn't consider changing her car license details to Remakel also... Which would have made her travel arrangements even easier overseas... Imagine trying to rent a car in the UK with a passport and foreign license in completely different names?

I don't know if it has ever been confirmed that she did in fact hire a car? She told Sally that she did but that may not have been true. Marion doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would do a solo overseas trip... she may have gone with a man or been meeting someone over there who would be driving her around.

I also recall reading that when she returned to Australia it had been uncovered that she had booked a hotel for several days but now I can't find where I read this. Do anyone have any insight?

 

[NesssaP]

I don't know if it has ever been confirmed that she did in fact hire a car? She told Sally that she did but that may not have been true. Marion doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would do a solo overseas trip... she may have gone with a man or been meeting someone over there who would be driving her around.

I also recall reading that when she returned to Australia it had been uncovered that she had booked a hotel for several days but now I can't find where I read this. Do anyone have any insight?

I remember that too - I think I remember it being in the Brisbane area?

I actually messaged Sally the other day in regards to transcripts of the Podcast for those hard of hearing - I think it would also make things a little easier to go back over and find particular pieces of information?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Conversations 15, good to hear all the updates and things they're working on. In an ideal world that Monsieur Remakel ad should have been jumped on by the police as soon as it came to hand, and Fernand ruled in or out in an instant ... ah well, c'est la vie.
At one point Bryan says to Sally "why are people so powerfully moved by the search?" Good question. I've been in Websleuths since 2012 and this is only the second case I've followed. For me it really got my interest because I was thinking how incredibly sad and unfair if Marion didn't estrange herself .... and her parents have passed away thinking she just didn't want to see them anymore ... and that goes for her sisters, Sally, family and friends too. The "what if" really got me. What if? "Oh, she just wanted to start a new life" .... "what if?" I feel devastatingly sad for Sally that her search for answers is now in its 23rd year. Absolutely intolerable not knowing and more power to her for never giving up on her search. Hopefully the answers are close at hand now.
When you think about it, if foul play has occurred, it's close to the perfect crime - coerce, bewitch someone, get them to change their name (and in this case they say the Salvation Army/police were told that Marion said she wanted to start a new life) - the police aren't interested in looking, family accept it and off everyone goes! Who knows what happens the next week, month .... they could disappear off the face of the earth and no-one's looking. Had a thought, if something is found to have occurred, maybe they could bring a law in where police have to do like welfare checks on people following such events, yearly or five yearly, just to make sure they're okay and it's really them .... 'Marion's Law', just a thought.

'Marion's law' is a lovely thought!
It would be difficult to legislate though. Ethically, at what point does institutional checking in with people who have indicated they do not want contact become harrassment?

I feel we need to give measure to the perception perpetuated by the podcast that the police didnt properly look into Marion's disappearance. Everyone is searching for answers about Marion but the scope of the search is very different for the police than it is for the podcast. The police focus was on whether Marion was in danger and/or a crime has been committed, while Sally quite understandably wants to know absolutely everything about her mum regardless (as do we!).

What I'm saying is that if the 'leads' the podcast want the police to pursue relate more to 'everything relating to Marion' rather than 'is Marion in peril or a victim of crime' its unlikely to be a priority for police.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I agree Poppypopcorn - I don't think Rye makes for an ideal base to travel from if you are being a long term tourist in the UK with a lot of luggage - but I do think London makes more sense... Tonbridge is only a 1 hour drive from London - so easy for a day trip or two... Rye would certainly be worth visiting - but I think your travels out from there would be more limited... Rye would only be a 2 hr drive from London as well if you were really keen on going there.

Do we know how familiar Marion was with the UK? I know she had been to Europe previously and had originally planned on travelling the Orient Express - which she said she was no longer planning on...

Is there solid evidence that her passport was in the name of Remakel when she left Australia? I know there is talk of her entering back under the Remakel passport and having signed customs/entry documents, but I was left with the feeling that this wasn't proven to be the actual "Remakel" passport? Might it have still been under Marion Barter ? I keep wondering if the name change only became highlighted in 2011 because the passport wasn't actually in the Remakel name and it was just a flag that managed to connect the identities eventually...

Surely if the passport was changed and used for travel in 1997 - that information would have been clear and passed along to Sally from the beginning? Maybe the police couldn't tell Sally the name - but they would have been able to say that she has changed her whole identity and wishes a fresh start with no contact? Why would they have held that information back and not have noted anything?

Marion may never have visited Rye.
The trace line for the unclaimed monies details Barclays transaction of returning the money. It just shows that Barclays Rye are the contact for CBA relating to that transaction. It doesnt necessarily mean the money was held at Rye, or that Rye processed the transaction. It could just be an internal Barclays procedure i.e Rye could be the site foreign transactions go through (ie processed via another branch using Rye details because it relates to a foreign transaction), or where unclaimed monies ledgers are managed. It could also have been an internal CBA thing - Rye may have been chosen because it was the first Barclays branch in the region the CBA bank teller found the details for when processing Marion's 20k in Australia (it was all on microfisch in those days).

 

[K8g]

I actually messaged Sally the other day in regards to transcripts of the Podcast for those hard of hearing - I think it would also make things a little easier to go back over and find particular pieces of information?

I actually think that's a fabulous idea. I've often wondered about some things that I vaguely remember hearing, but don't have time to wade through 14 episodes and conversations to find it.

Coincidentally, I transcribe investigative interviews for a living and transcribing TLV episodes would be awesome!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Police have identified and interviewed the dentist who witnessed the photograph for her passport.

This is new info (new to me at least, I might’ve missed it). Are you able to share how you know this?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I cant help but wonder about what the police know, but are not able to say due to privacy.

Marion was added to the missing person list in 2007 and then removed a few years later without explanation. She was also pulled as the face of missing persons week at the last minute. Again without explaination. Even Gary Sheehan, who had been working on her case since 2009 personally closed it himself in 2016 again, without any real basis (to our knowledge anyway) of anyone having spoken to her or sighting her. I don't belive he is incompetent in any way. It seems rather unreasonable and unlikely that she has been removed from missing persons/case closed a number of times without any proof of life since 1997, simply because she changed her name. Surely the police know more than they have been allowed to tell Sally, for whatever reason?

In one episode an ex-police officer who worked for missing persons sent an email to Alison. She said that if a person was found to be missing under their own volition then the police could only share information with the family that the person allowed them to. So if the person does not want anything shared police basically can only indicate that the person is ok but does not want contact.

I think the police have a whole heap of information that they are not able to share. I think Garry really wants to tell Sally more.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

From what I understand Gary Sheehan was not immediately made aware of the name change and it was something he himself discovered in 2011? Which is why I am questioning whether she actually travelled out of the country on the "Remakel" passport - because that would have been immediate information discovered when Sally was questioning the police on who on earth was accessing her Mother's bank account when she at that point in time believed her Mother to still be in the UK. Sally's initial steps in the beginning of all of this was with the assumption her Mother was still overseas, and until told otherwise Sally would have been under the impression that someone was falsely accessing her Mother's bank accounts, she had no reason to believe or even consider her Mother was back in Australia unannounced until someone told her otherwise.

First thing the police would have had to do was check whether Marion was actually in Australia or not, and they would have been searching for Marion Barter's passport information from the get go, and if that passport was changed and used as "Remakel" when Marion left in June 1997, then the police would have had that information immediately?

My initial questions here at Websleuths was in relation the timeframe of a name change and then a subsequent passport change - was her name change legalised as of May 1997 or was it applied for in May 1997? When and where was the "Remakel" passport approved and collected?

The name change and passport change take time - and back then it was a longer process than it is now... I find it hard to believe that she managed both in such a short time and didn't consider changing her car license details to Remakel also... Which would have made her travel arrangements even easier overseas... Imagine trying to rent a car in the UK with a passport and foreign license in completely different names?

Unless hiring a car was just a story Marion told to give the impression that she was staying longer in the UK?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I don't know if it has ever been confirmed that she did in fact hire a car? She told Sally that she did but that may not have been true. Marion doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would do a solo overseas trip... she may have gone with a man or been meeting someone over there who would be driving her around.

I also recall reading that when she returned to Australia it had been uncovered that she had booked a hotel for several days but now I can't find where I read this. Do anyone have any insight?

I think that's from the flight card she completed when coming back to Australia. She said the duration of stay was 3 days (from memory) and gave a hotel address for where she'd be staying

 

[Sparkles5777]

This is new info. Are you able to share how you know this?

I can't remember which podcast episode it was exactly but they said this in one of the more recent episodes.

 

[NesssaP]

Unless hiring a car was just a story Marion told to give the impression that she was staying longer in the UK?

Even if the Hire Car was just a story - would she really go over there leaving herself with public transport her only option? She was a fairly independent woman, even if she had a friend or travelling companion would she really limit herself that way? I really would like to ascertain whether she left Australia using the Remakel passport or not... if she did not and yet she came back on the Remakel passport - that just complicates things a whole lot further...

Also, as it is now apparent that someone with the surname "Remakel" was in Australia as recently as 1990 - what are the chances she had a friendship with someone of that surname back in 1990 (that was not Fernand) and may have developed further? She was still living in the Sydney area 1990, she divorced from Ray in 1990 also...

Admittedly I haven't had a chance to listen to the new Conversations so I might be missing some new info... Facebook makes it sound like something is about to break though...

 

[Mel 1303]

This is new info (new to me at least, I might’ve missed it). Are you able to share how you know this?

It was not in todays conversations, but in one of the last two episodes.

 

[Sparkles5777]

Even if the Hire Car was just a story - would she really go over there leaving herself with public transport her only option? She was a fairly independent woman, even if she had a friend or travelling companion would she really limit herself that way? I really would like to ascertain whether she left Australia using the Remakel passport or not... if she did not and yet she came back on the Remakel passport - that just complicates things a whole lot further...

Also, as it is now apparent that someone with the surname "Remakel" was in Australia as recently as 1990 - what are the chances she had a friendship with someone of that surname back in 1990 (that was not Fernand) and may have developed further? She was still living in the Sydney area 1990, she divorced from Ray in 1990 also...

Admittedly I haven't had a chance to listen to the new Conversations so I might be missing some new info... Facebook makes it sound like something is about to break though...

I agree that the passport information seems inconsistant. Originally Sally was told by a friend who worked in customs that she returned on the 2nd August but this was many many years before finding out about Marions name change. Presumably Sally's friend looked up the name Marion Barter which is how they found she'd returned. I'm sure Gary was the one who said 100% she used the Florabella passport in one of the earlier episodes. So how did Sallys friend find out that she had returned if it was a under a different name? Perhaps someone who works in customs can shed some light on how that could be.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Around the 45min mark of todays episode, Bryan talks about some unsupportive comments made about Sally being "deeply hurtful and defamatory" and how awful that is. I wholeheartedly agree! But because I feel this way I am also very disappointed that I also heared very hurtful and defamatory comments made about Marion's sisters!

Marion's sisters are victims. People cope in different ways. Her sisters have accepted that Marion isnt coming back. They clearly dont feel the details of what happened will help them, the one interviewed talked of the pain associated with bringing Marions disappearance up. They dont want to be involved with the podcast- and that needs to be ok. Sally has also said she thinks her mum isnt coming back but she wants to know what happened and why. Shes desperate for answers and thats ok too.
Its understandable and completely natural that Sally is disappointed other members of the family havent supported her search but Alison/Bryan should be supporting Sally better with what goes to air. It is as unreasonable to expect Marions sisters to say they were wrong in not supporting the podcast as it is for Sally to say she was wrong to do the podcast because of the pain it causes them. There is no wrong way to deal with what they have been through.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I agree that the passport information seems inconsistant. Originally Sally was told by a friend who worked in customs that she returned on the 2nd August but this was many many years before finding out about Marions name change. Presumably Sally's friend looked up the name Marion Barter which is how they found she'd returned. I'm sure Gary was the one who said 100% she used the Florabella passport in one of the earlier episodes. So how did Sallys friend find out that she had returned if it was a under a different name? Perhaps someone who works in customs can shed some light on how that could be.

Perhaps her tickets were in the name of Marion and the passport in Florabella. It's the only way I can think of that Sally could have been told by the customs person that Marion had returned when no one knew of her new name.
I know that sounds a bit dodgy but I looked on the Australian consulate page awhile back and it's possible depending on whether the airline you travel allows it and is satisfied with your identification documents.