Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

[Estelle]

Maybe Marion had been writing to the mysterious Le Courier person from a distance and was spurned by him. If she was obsessed and also possibly suffering from DID would she have then used his initials for her own new name change maybe.

I have always predicted that Marion was writing to this person but he was not in Australia. She used her imagination (or possible IDD) to fall in love with him, imagine she was married to him creating her new identity and arranging to meet him overseas. He probably promised her the world. But she probably revealed too much to him and he took advantage of that information to get access to her money and possibly end her life.

I found this article interesting: Falling in Love Through Letters

Communication through letters appears to be more suitable for romantic communication than phone conversations. They are typically deeper, and in many cases more sincere. Sincerity is a great asset to successful personal relationships and is correlated with a higher degree of intimacy. Although people can more easily be dishonest about themselves in letters, the act of writing encourages people to present a more profound and sincere picture of their true self. This is especially true if the relationship continues and develops further.

It is often easier to describe your heart in writing while you are alone than it is when you are talking about your feeling in front of another person. Indeed, self-disclosure in the initial stages of a relationship is often greater in letters than in offline communication. Moreover, unlike phone calls, letters can be reread again and again and thereby enhance romantic responses. Romantic letters are usually written when the person is physically alone, but mentally with another person. When we write a letter, we have a sense of being in company, even if we are secluded. When we receive a letter, the feeling that we are not forgotten is prominent as well.

Writing romantic letters to a person you hardly know has certain aspects in common with online romantic communication; these include, for example, the scanty amount of information the partners have about each other at the beginning of the relationship, the significant role of imagination, a reliance on writing skills and verbal communication, spatial separation, discontinuity of communication, and a marginal physical investment.

Falling in Love Through Writing

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I have always predicted that Marion was writing to this person but he was not in Australia. She used her imagination (or possible IDD) to fall in love with him, imagine she was married to him creating her new identity and arranging to meet him overseas. He probably promised her the world. But she probably revealed too much to him and he took advantage of that information to get access to her money and possibly end her life.

I found this article interesting: Falling in Love Through Letters

Communication through letters appears to be more suitable for romantic communication than phone conversations. They are typically deeper, and in many cases more sincere. Sincerity is a great asset to successful personal relationships and is correlated with a higher degree of intimacy. Although people can more easily be dishonest about themselves in letters, the act of writing encourages people to present a more profound and sincere picture of their true self. This is especially true if the relationship continues and develops further.

It is often easier to describe your heart in writing while you are alone than it is when you are talking about your feeling in front of another person. Indeed, self-disclosure in the initial stages of a relationship is often greater in letters than in offline communication. Moreover, unlike phone calls, letters can be reread again and again and thereby enhance romantic responses. Romantic letters are usually written when the person is physically alone, but mentally with another person. When we write a letter, we have a sense of being in company, even if we are secluded. When we receive a letter, the feeling that we are not forgotten is prominent as well.

Writing romantic letters to a person you hardly know has certain aspects in common with online romantic communication; these include, for example, the scanty amount of information the partners have about each other at the beginning of the relationship, the significant role of imagination, a reliance on writing skills and verbal communication, spatial separation, discontinuity of communication, and a marginal physical investment.

Falling in Love Through Writing

Very interesting. Nothing against psychologists but I’m guessing they would be very good in the art of coercion whether face to face or by letter/phone.

Speaking of which did anyone check Marion’s landline phone records in the period before she left Australia?

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

[QUOTE="Lord Peter Flimsy, post: 16934411, member: 269255]

Speaking of which did anyone check Marion’s landline phone records in the period before she left Australia?[/QUOTE]
seriously doubt they did

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

He builds lots of houses and apartments. He owned a book shop. He played football for the national team. He was a trained psychologist. He was failed inventor. My, what a busy man.

 

[thunderwombat]

He builds lots of houses and apartments. He owned a book shop. He played football for the national team. He was a trained psychologist. He was failed inventor. My, what a busy man.

Probably eats crackers too.

 

[vivienbee]

One thought that I often come back to, when I just let my subconscious take over, is the idea that Marion really did leave for England, on her own, expecting to have a completely normal trip there.

She changes her name, almost whimsically, just as a little gift or joke to herself. The postcards are documenting her time, genuinely, up to a point, and then something drastic happens to change her plans. In the idea my mind comes back to, she gets a call, or contact, from someone back at home, and they are in TROUBLE. Huge trouble, massive trouble, that she can't tell anyone else in the family about. (I do have someone in mind when I say this, but I'm not going to say their name for fairness as this is total conjecture. I'm sure people can read between the lines.) They are in over their head and they owe someone money, a huge amount of money, and this needs to be paid quickly. Marion, in a blind panic, travels back to try to sort out the issue with the money, but she either threatens to go to the police part way through proceedings or something else goes wrong and she ends up meeting with foul play.
I mean...there's a lot of holes in this theory, admittedly, but I am just chucking it out here just in case.
It makes more sense to me than the idea that the actual Remakel from the podcast would be stupid enough to use his own name when carrying out a long-con of grand, complicated, excessive proportions.

 

[Meligator]

Looking closely at the postmarks on these two postcards, I'm wondering if the one to Deidre is actually postmarked July 7 and not August 7. It's very hard to see the "Aug" part of the postmark. But everything else on these postmarks (including what looks like a possible time stamp ending :15PM) is exactly the same (Hastings, 7:??:1997). Seems likely they could have been mailed together, both on July 7. I'm not 100% sure this is the postcard Deidre believes was postmarked August 7th, but she mentioned not having kept another postcard (so I'm guessing the August 7th date refers to the postcard she still has).

Also, can anyone read the postmark dates on the Sally's Crafts/Alfriston postcard or the London/David Jones Postcard sent to Sally?

 

[SaintGertrude]

One thought that I often come back to, when I just let my subconscious take over, is the idea that Marion really did leave for England, on her own, expecting to have a completely normal trip there.

She changes her name, almost whimsically, just as a little gift or joke to herself. The postcards are documenting her time, genuinely, up to a point, and then something drastic happens to change her plans. In the idea my mind comes back to, she gets a call, or contact, from someone back at home, and they are in TROUBLE. Huge trouble, massive trouble, that she can't tell anyone else in the family about. (I do have someone in mind when I say this, but I'm not going to say their name for fairness as this is total conjecture. I'm sure people can read between the lines.) They are in over their head and they owe someone money, a huge amount of money, and this needs to be paid quickly. Marion, in a blind panic, travels back to try to sort out the issue with the money, but she either threatens to go to the police part way through proceedings or something else goes wrong and she ends up meeting with foul play.
I mean...there's a lot of holes in this theory, admittedly, but I am just chucking it out here just in case.
It makes more sense to me than the idea that the actual Remakel from the podcast would be stupid enough to use his own name when carrying out a long-con of grand, complicated, excessive proportions.

I still find it strange that a male went missing in Southport ten days after Marion's deedpoll name. He was totally the opposite to being her type though, younger and into his motorbikes. According to people who knew him he was definitely someone who could spin a few yarns. Could whoever you have in mind maybe have known this person through associations.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I don't find it strange.
People go missing all the time for all kinds of reasons. I would say he's had an accident on his bike and is yet to be found.
I doubt very much that it's anything to do with Marion.

I still find it strange that a male went missing in Southport ten days after Marion's deedpoll name. He was totally the opposite to being her type though, younger and into his motorbikes. According to people who knew him he was definitely someone who could spin a few yarns. Could whoever you have in mind maybe have known this person through associations.

 

[SaintGertrude]

A little while back I posted the marriage certificate of a couple married at Weybridge Registry Office on the 7 July 1997 a short distance from Heathrow. The bride was named Jungblut the only lady of that name I can find in the entire UK database of marriages. Jungblut was someone’s mothers maiden name.

The groom in that marriage was named Engelken and is shown on the marriage certificate as a psychologist. Just had another listen to Episode 11 of the podcast and the conversation with his ex-wife. She says at the start of that conversation that her ex-husband was a trained psychologist.

Just saying.

An interesting find Lord Peter Flimsy. Any German/Luxembourg persons marriages in the UK at the time of her stay would be interesting especially if they might fit in any way with Marion's name change as she may have attended as a wedding guest. The Jungblut name you mention is interesting as without going too much off topic three male Jungblut's changed their name by deedpoll to a different name in the 1930's/40's The Gazette | Official Public Record...

 

[SaintGertrude]

I don't find it strange.
People go missing all the time for all kinds of reasons. I would say he's had an accident on his bike and is yet to be found.
I doubt very much that it's anything to do with Marion.

It just seems that very few people have gone missing from Southport. When I do a search there are only three for the actual town of Southport and two including Marion went missing in 1997. Search Results

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I get many results when I search, as is the same for many of those coastal towns both now and over the years and even back then.

It seems that very few people have gone missing from Southport. When I do a search there are only three for the actual town of Southport and two including Marion went missing in 1997. Search

 

[SaintGertrude]

I wonder how much other Australian missing peoples cases have been looked into by websleuths to see if there could be any link at all.

I get many results when I search, as is the same for many of those coastal towns both now and over the years and even back then.

If I just type in Southport into the search on the link I sent it just comes up with three people. There are many more missing people who come up in general search. TootsieFootsie, I understand what you mean about coastal towns and looking at the terrain it has now given me a new idea about Marion's disappearance. One theory we may not have covered is if Marion came back to Australia then bought a second-hand already taxed car and had some kind of accident involving the terrain in the area. If there was an accidental death and her body never recovered that would also explain no signs of life. Do we know exactly when was her driving licence surrendered.

 

[JLZ]

An interesting find Lord Peter Flimsy. Any German/Luxembourg persons marriages in the UK at the time of her stay would be interesting especially if they might fit in any way with Marion's name change as she may have attended as a wedding guest. The Jungblut name you mention is interesting as without going too much off topic three male Jungblut's changed their name by deedpoll to a different name in the 1930's/40's The Gazette | Official Public Record...

I suggest this would have happened with a lot of German names in the UK during those decades.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

One thought that I often come back to, when I just let my subconscious take over, is the idea that Marion really did leave for England, on her own, expecting to have a completely normal trip there.

She changes her name, almost whimsically, just as a little gift or joke to herself. The postcards are documenting her time, genuinely, up to a point, and then something drastic happens to change her plans. In the idea my mind comes back to, she gets a call, or contact, from someone back at home, and they are in TROUBLE. Huge trouble, massive trouble, that she can't tell anyone else in the family about. (I do have someone in mind when I say this, but I'm not going to say their name for fairness as this is total conjecture. I'm sure people can read between the lines.) They are in over their head and they owe someone money, a huge amount of money, and this needs to be paid quickly. Marion, in a blind panic, travels back to try to sort out the issue with the money, but she either threatens to go to the police part way through proceedings or something else goes wrong and she ends up meeting with foul play.
I mean...there's a lot of holes in this theory, admittedly, but I am just chucking it out here just in case.
It makes more sense to me than the idea that the actual Remakel from the podcast would be stupid enough to use his own name when carrying out a long-con of grand, complicated, excessive proportions.

Interesting theory vivienbee, this is quite possible ... I've thought about this too, getting a call to come back urgently - but I was thinking kind of like a Goran Markovic type scam, "gotta get back quick you're in danger" scenario .... but that's probably nuts. But then you've gotta think how could anyone phone her, I mean, who even knew where she was staying? That's where I get stuck. She rang Sally a few times, maybe she was ringing someone else too, that's possible. They've just gotta find someone who met her in the UK, anyone .......... there's just been nothing! Was she with someone over there who told her she had to get back to Australia quick ....

 

[Itsapuzzle]

We're in another bloomin' lockdown here - ah well .... so I was just looking on youtube and someone's put up footage from East Sussex, it's footage of buses basically, but you see people walking around on the footpaths, crossing roads, see shops ... just saw one dated 26 June 1997 in Lewes, and there's Brighton on 2 August 1997 - Tunbridge Wells in 1998 - but it made me think, gee, that's when everyone was filming their holidays and everything - wouldn't it be good to get a call out there for people who were in Rye, Tunbridge Wells, etc - East Sussex basically, when Marion was there, and ask them to upload to youtube, there's every chance that Marion is in someone's footage, photos, she'd have to be. End of spontaneous lockdown youtube thoughts.
PS: I work from home so I still have to work

 

[JLZ]

deleted

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I had the same thought and every so often I search images and videos from around the time that Marion was there.
See people's holiday photos and I always check the background in case Marion was in one by accident.

We're in another bloomin' lockdown here - ah well .... so I was just looking on youtube and someone's put up footage from East Sussex, it's footage of buses basically, but you see people walking around on the footpaths, crossing roads, see shops ... just saw one dated 26 June 1997 in Lewes, and there's Brighton on 2 August 1997 - Tunbridge Wells in 1998 - but it made me think, gee, that's when everyone was filming their holidays and everything - wouldn't it be good to get a call out there for people who were in Rye, Tunbridge Wells, etc - East Sussex basically, when Marion was there, and ask them to upload to youtube, there's every chance that Marion is in someone's footage, photos, she'd have to be. End of spontaneous lockdown youtube thoughts.
PS: I work from home so I still have to work

 

[Itsapuzzle]

With the incoming passenger card that appears to have Marion's writing on it, is there any chance someone could have given her the card to fill in before travel, telling her it would save time if it was already filled out, and Marion never in fact boarded the plane, but someone in her place had it with her handwriting on it, and just added the flight number, and whatever else was added.
@SaintGertrude yes, quite possible about a car accident in Australia, there have been quite a few missing person cases solved many years later on the discovery of cars in water or off roads. I wish I could narrow myself down to just one theory, so many possibilities .... it ain't easy.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

I wonder how much other Australian missing peoples cases have been looked into by websleuths to see if there could be any link at all.

If I just type in Southport into the search on the link I sent it just comes up with three people. There are many more missing people who come up in general search. TootsieFootsie, I understand what you mean about coastal towns and looking at the terrain it has now given me a new idea about Marion's disappearance. One theory we may not have covered is if Marion came back to Australia then bought a second-hand already taxed car and had some kind of accident involving the terrain in the area. If there was an accidental death and her body never recovered that would also explain no signs of life. Do we know exactly when was her driving licence surrendered.

The police are tasked with looking into patterns of circumstances with missing persons I believe, but there are two issues with this: firstly there is a tendency not to make new work for themselves. The last thing the police want to have on their hands is a serial killer. When was the last time the police came out to identify a serial killer? It simply never happens - these cases are thrust upon them by circumstances and the media. Secondly, there is always an issue with resources. These two things no doubt feed into each other.

A semi-recent episode of the excellent podcast The Murder Squad featured a guy in the US who runs a website tracking missing persons, found bodies and murders with the sole purpose of being a resource to websleuths who can look at the data and come up with patterns.

It might be a case of Australia just being a much smaller country in terms of cases and population so the effort may not be viable but given the difficulties of tracking these things across state and territory lines, the issues of regional police not having much experience with these types of crimes, it seems like it could be a worthwhile exercise.