Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

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This is just speculation on my part of course— but I’m starting to lean towards RB harming/killing MB. I don’t think he’s a serial killer or that killing was intended, but several things give me the suspicion he is prone to physical violence. GGB did have a police protection order and she clearly didn’t want to come completely clean about how intimate they had become, so I’m not surprised she might leave other details out. But she did report him making threats of harm. Also, in listening to RB his choice of words some aggressive undertones. GGB grabbed him to take him to the bedroom photo shoot. Marion grabbed him by the neck. He strikes me as someone who could become president easily enraged. We ALSO know that Marion, while mostly soft with people, could be emotionally reactive as well. I can just imagine a scenario as simple as RB, with Marion’s $$ in hand ready to be put in his security envelope says “I’m going out for business,” and Marion being bored at whatever place they are staying says “I’m coming along with you for the ride.” & When he can’t get her to agree to stay home and just loses it.

To cover his tracks he ditches the FR drivers license & sells the car. Takes the money/stuff out of the security envelope and hides it someplace else.
 
Zanzibar said:
I’ve probably confused matters by not putting the years in, sorry.

22 May 1969 for arrival into AUS. However it was pointed out to me she arrived by plane not boat. The date came from the NAA file and others on here.

Marriage date was 10 May 1969 to WW from NAA file. Funny it just so happens to be exactly 1 year from when she was married.

Again, sorry for not including years and creating more confusion!

edit for clarity
Click to expand...


ahh yes I see what you mean now with dates up.
Yes isn't it interesting she flies out on her wedding anniversary....
 
Zanzibar said:
Different dates though ?
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Yes agree, but going with perhaps human error made by 'airline staff' when they filled out the departure section?
I think it is highly unlikely and more like she did depart on the 10 May 1970 - the card is filled out by her, that is her hand (aside from the departure part) and the baby's passenger card ( leaving 8 May 1970) is not her handwriting.
 
Sorry if this has already been covered, but has anyone been down to the NAA and looked at the microfiche of the incoming passenger cards to see if we can find Mr AKA returning sometime between 21/5/1974 (day he exited prison) and 12/2/76 (date he changes his name to FDdH)?

I can see they are there but I'm not in Canberra!
 
Meligator said:
This is just speculation on my part of course— but I’m starting to lean towards RB harming/killing MB. I don’t think he’s a serial killer or that killing was intended, but several things give me the suspicion he is prone to physical violence. GGB did have a police protection order and she clearly didn’t want to come completely clean about how intimate they had become, so I’m not surprised she might leave other details out. But she did report him making threats of harm. Also, in listening to RB his choice of words some aggressive undertones. GGB grabbed him to take him to the bedroom photo shoot. Marion grabbed him by the neck. He strikes me as someone who could become president easily enraged. We ALSO know that Marion, while mostly soft with people, could be emotionally reactive as well. I can just imagine a scenario as simple as RB, with Marion’s $$ in hand ready to be put in his security envelope says “I’m going out for business,” and Marion being bored at whatever place they are staying says “I’m coming along with you for the ride.” & When he can’t get her to agree to stay home and just loses it.

To cover his tracks he ditches the FR drivers license & sells the car. Takes the money/stuff out of the security envelope and hides it someplace else.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I also think the return to AUS was unplanned which may have cost Marion her life. No evidence to believe this just hunch.
 
Just going to park this here incase there is any connection. The Tonbridge address maybe?
Ancestry search: Michael John Reid
P&O 1950 and 1954 1st class passenger cards UK to AUS.to USA. Eg. Marseilles to Sydney for Michael John Reid. Son of Joyce Leonore Reid (nee Weightman) and father Hugh R Reid ( U.N. official). With address
CO
L. Weightman esq. Port Reeve House. East st. Tonbridge. Kent.
 
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mishy66 said:
2/2/1970 Willy Wouters left Australia....
No, WW left 15 Feb 1970 - not the 2nd

Do you mean EW?
EW - I took as someone referring to her as E Wouters Reid on these previous timelines to make the connection between Wouters and Reid.

How could a mother and her baby leave on different flights?
Someone else was with them that she trusted to let her baby leave with them IMO


This very discussion about various dates and timelines that have been made in the past in regards to WW /IK <modsnip>

EJWR was born in January 1970 - In the year 2014 she was 44 yrs old as per media writeup.

<nidsbuo>
Click to expand...

At this stage of her life, EJWR was Evelyn Wouters (EW).
 
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mishy66 said:
She would have used her name in front of EJ name to show on the travel docs she was the mother of.
The baby was born in January, leaving in May - so she is 4 mths old, this is how long she has been in Australia :)
IK was in Aust for longer.

You seem to be going back to my original theory I seeo_O
Click to expand...

Yes I did not compile any of the timelines. I assumed that they would be correct.
 
Zanzibar said:
Ancestry popped up some 17 Hampden Street addresses in :

Lancashire England
Bayswater London England
Kensal Green London England
Kilburn London England
Middlesex England

I’m not sure of their existence at the time of the offenses though.
edit for a rather strange autocorrect
Click to expand...

17 Hampden Street, Paddington, Sydney.

Google Maps
 
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mishy66 said:
Uggh I am so confused myself with this ? :)
Not sure where those dates are from?
10 May 1970 is when she leaves Australia.

Where did you find the 22 May ship date connected to her?
And her marriage date 10th May Brussels??
Click to expand...

I learnt that "Vessel" can mean either plane or ship.
This what someone put on a timeline I have:

1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek

1969-04-23 Australian visitor visa issued to WW Brussels

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels.

1969-05-11 Ilona flew to Australia

1969-05-24 Willy Wouters, status Never Married flew Qantas from London to Perth on a three months holiday visa

1969-05-26 Applied for resident status Willy Wouters residence 6 Gosbell St, Paddington which is in Sydney

In NAA file, RB's application to Aus lists wife IK. She has her own public file with photos.

1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

Is this correct?
 
mishy66 said:
I would love to know this too. It is quite incredible how close things are with these two isn't it!
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As the parents lived in the Eastern Suburbs at Vaucluse, the cafe was likely to be at Bondi, Double Bay or Paddington. I wondered if the Gosbell Street, Paddington address he gave was the cafe address that he'd been given by someone before his arrival.
 
Estelle said:
I learnt that "Vessel" can mean either plane or ship.
This what someone put on a timeline I have:

1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek

1969-04-23 Australian visitor visa issued to WW Brussels

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels.

1969-05-11 Ilona flew to Australia

1969-05-24 Willy Wouters, status Never Married flew Qantas from London to Perth on a three months holiday visa

1969-05-26 Applied for resident status Willy Wouters residence 6 Gosbell St, Paddington which is in Sydney

In NAA file, RB's application to Aus lists wife IK. She has her own public file with photos.

1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

Is this correct?
Click to expand...

@Estelle my comment was in response to another persons who later rectified her dates.
You might have to follow the trail to see what this was about.
 
mishy66 said:
@Estelle my comment was in response to another persons who later rectified her dates.
You might have to follow the trail to see what this was about.
Click to expand...

Mishy, I wasn't replying to you. I wanted everyone to know that a "vessel" can be a plane or ship and to find out if that timeline is what others have.

Just because someone tags you does not mean that they are replying to you directly. "Tagging" means that you like a post or that you found it interesting and want to comment on it. That is all. It does not necessarily mean the person who tagged you wants a reply from you. The reply can be from anyone.
 
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gymtonic said:
Oh, I am confused again @Estelle because I thought AC said in the inquest that RB had taken the alias of the real F Remakel completely including his date of birth. so the link @BabeBlues provided says that the real F Ramakel's birthday is 1947/12/02, which I have taken to be 2 December 1947 (either that or 12 February depending on which date order system is used). I based all my Queensland DL timeline on it being 2 Dec 1947. Where does FNR birthday as 12 December 1947 come from?
Click to expand...
Sorry @gymtonic I should have gone back and corrected it. 2 December 1947 is the correct birthdate for FNR. I think I added the 1 to the 2 as a typo thinking December (being the 12th month) in my head. Apologies for causing the confusion
 
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